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What constitutes a legal aerobatic box?

curtis

curtis

Well Known Member
I have some questions on areas for aerobatics.

I have seen people doing aerobatics around a local airport that they claim is an
?aerobatic box?, however the area doesn?t meet FAR 91.303 and there are no NOTAMs. Just by the definition of ?lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport, means there shouldn?t be any aerobatics performed anywhere close to most all airports unless there is a waiver or NOTAM. Lateral boundaries to me means there is no aerobatic floor in these areas.

I took a local sectional and started blacking out the areas prohibited for aerobatic flight IAW FAR 91.303 and what was left was a very small area.

Just curious how everyone is supposed to know the locations of all the aerobatic boxes while navigating the airspace.
 
If It's Official, It Has to Be Published Somewhere

An APA (aerobatic practice area) can be establised within controlled airspace for the purpose of separating aircraft practicing manuevers from other traffic. I believe such an area was recently established adjacent Marquette Airport (KSAW) in Michigan's upper peninsula. I suspect that the limitations and location will be published in the AFD soon if not already there.
The area you refer to may be more customary than formal - a little like the student "practice" area not far from my home base.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
I dont believe you need an official "box" but you do need to follow the rules and avoid those airspaces specifically restricted from aerobatic operations. The hardest part for my area in Southern FL is finding an area clear of airways due to the density of major airports here. Luckily just a few miles south of our private airfield, over the everglades I was able to plot a 3x3 mile area which is out of any surface airspace (B,C,D or E) and doesn't impinge upon any airways (4miles wide). I defined the corners of my aerobatic "box" with waypoints with one in the center. I make the center wapoint my active and as long as I stay within 2.5 miles of center I'm in my box.
 
curtis said:
I have some questions on areas for aerobatics.

I have seen people doing aerobatics around a local airport that they claim is an
?aerobatic box?, however the area doesn?t meet FAR 91.303 and there are no NOTAMs. Just by the definition of ?lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport, means there shouldn?t be any aerobatics performed anywhere close to most all airports unless there is a waiver or NOTAM. Lateral boundaries to me means there is no aerobatic floor in these areas.

I took a local sectional and started blacking out the areas prohibited for aerobatic flight IAW FAR 91.303 and what was left was a very small area.

Just curious how everyone is supposed to know the locations of all the aerobatic boxes while navigating the airspace.
Click to expand...

APA's typically are published in NOTAM only. APA's are specific locations, detail in position and altitude, as laid out in a waiver. Waiver requirements on issue are laid out very specifically in FAA Order8900-1 vol3 ch5. When a waiver is issued, the requirements for use are specific. You can see an example of a waiver issuance, typical documentation, and other useful information here.
And an actual waiver issued is here.

There are some APA's that are always open and active because they get used a lot. But this is rare. They are issued in all kinds of airspace, controlled and uncontrolled, towered and non, etc.
 
Box

Our box at Hartford WI years ago had to be precisely defined and documented, approved by the local FSDO and activated by a telephone call to the FSS. They were then to issue a NOTAM. Two of us were practicing unlimited routines in a Pitts S-1S when two FAA fellows flying by in a C-172 who were coming from a fly in breakfast dropped in and violated me for flying acro and for not having my pilot license aboard. I had left my wallet with the other fellow on the ground, who was critiquing my performance with a handheld radio, real-time. The wallet was quite uncomfortable to have in my hip pocket at 4 or 5 G's! Turned out that the FSS failed to issue the NOTAM. I was saved by the recording of my telephone call, proving that the call to activate the wavered area had been made and was in a timely fashion. IIRC we found these recordings are retained only for a very limited time. That's a long story but serves to show the FAA took the box and NOTAM process very seriously. You likely could check with a nearby IAC chapter to find the best procedure to establish a box in your area. Also you must carry your license with you in the airplane, even for a short local acro flight, or risk a violation of the FAR's. Fortunately they let me off with a warning about the license violation. My partner said these gents acted like SS storm troopers, but I understand we have a friendlier FAA now.
 
RV8R999 said:
... I was able to plot a 3x3 mile area which is out of any surface airspace (B,C,D or E) and doesn't impinge upon any airways (4miles wide). ...
Click to expand...

IIRC, airways are 4 nm or 4.5 degrees, whichever is greater, on EACH SIDE of the centerline, for a total width of 8 miles or 9 degrees.
 
longranger said:
IIRC, airways are 4 nm or 4.5 degrees, whichever is greater, on EACH SIDE of the centerline, for a total width of 8 miles or 9 degrees.
Click to expand...

totally correct... since for the purpose of defining an aerobatic legal area we are only concernced with 1 side of the airway (the inside) 4 nm is all we need to worry about in this case. But thanks for the clarification!
 
A call to your local IAC chapter and/or FSDO could probably point you in the direction of a approved aerobatic box. As metioned earlier, you dont really need to be in a box to go fly up side down, but if you are looking at going low or withing the lateral confines of B airpsace... then its probably a good idea.

Normally all you have to do is find out who owns the waiver, sign it, and call to activate the box. If there are none, having started the paperwork for a box myself, it is not really that complicated to work through the FAA to get one set up.

Rex
 
We have a designated box at our air park. It's just a matter of working with the local FSDO, and how familiar they are with them. In some places it can be a hassle to get approved. I am not sure how effective they are at keeping folks away, there is a lot of traffic in our area, especially flight training, and I try to keep a wary eye out all the time.

At our contests at Sebring, where there is a notamed box, and the existence of the box and aerobatic activities are announced on the CTAF every time someone calls in, we still regularly have someone fly through.
 
Don't confuse "The Box" with FAR 91.303

"the Box" is generally a reference by aerobatic competition pilots. It is a cube of airspace 3300'X3300'. The vertical limit is 1500'Agl to 350'agl for Primary and can be as low as 300' to 3200' for Unlimited.

Note that for Sportsman no waiver is required if the airspace meets other 91.303 requirements. If practice below 1500' is desired or if the area does not meet other requirements, a waiver is required. Of course, you could also practice unlimited above 1500 agl and not worry about getting a waiver.

Scott a Jordan
N733JJ
Occasional Sportsman competitor.
 
Aerobatics

Two seperate issues below 1500'- a waiver for the pilot for operating below 1500' and a waiver for the airspace for flight below 1500'.
 
Typo?

N733JJ said:
"the Box" is generally a reference by aerobatic competition pilots. It is a cube of airspace 3300'X3300'. The vertical limit is 1500'Agl to 350'agl for Primary and can be as low as 300' to 3200' for Unlimited.

Note that for Sportsman no waiver is required if the airspace meets other 91.303 requirements. If practice below 1500' is desired or if the area does not meet other requirements, a waiver is required. Of course, you could also practice unlimited above 1500 agl and not worry about getting a waiver.

Scott a Jordan
N733JJ
Occasional Sportsman competitor.
Click to expand...

Should that be 3500 AGL? I thought all aerobatic competitions were conducted at or above 1500' AGL. :confused:

I also thought that any aerobatics below 1500' required a low altitude waiver from an A.C.E. for the pilot, and an airspace waiver as well.

Thanks for any clarification.....
 
PCHunt said:
I also thought that any aerobatics below 1500' required a low altitude waiver from an A.C.E. for the pilot, and an airspace waiver as well.

Thanks for any clarification.....
Click to expand...

An ACE (Aerobatic Competency Evaluator), is an FAA designated (through ICAS) pilot who issues evaluations for SAC cards. These are for special types of waivers, called public waivers, or more simply air show waivers. Yes special credentials are required for air shows for aerobatics or formation. If you just want to fly around non aerobatic and non formation, you need no special credentials for that in a public waiver.

The waivers discussed here in this thread are APA waivers, these are aerobatic practice area (APA) waivers. No special credentials are required for these at all.

From the FAA's point of view, if you invite the public, you had better have a 'public waiver'. These waivers require special markings on the flight line, emergency personnel, emergency response plans, crowd separation, briefing requirements, blah blah blah. They are complex and full of requirements.

APA waivers have almost no requirements at all. They are simple cause the FAA does not care much if you kill yourself. They care a lot more if people are paying to watch.
 
PCHunt said:
Should that be 3500 AGL? I thought all aerobatic competitions were conducted at or above 1500' AGL. :confused:

I also thought that any aerobatics below 1500' required a low altitude waiver from an A.C.E. for the pilot, and an airspace waiver as well.

Thanks for any clarification.....
Click to expand...

In IAC comps, the box floor depends on the category. It's 328' for unlimited, 656' for advanced, 1200' for intermediate, and 1500' for primary and sportsman. Personal ICAS waivers only apply to airshows. At airshows, there must still be waivered airspace, plus the pilot's personal ICAS waiver. ICAS waivers are not required for IAC competitions.
 
curtis said:
Just curious how everyone is supposed to know the locations of all the aerobatic boxes while navigating the airspace.
Click to expand...

Thanks for all of the input to my question. I believe after all that has been said is that there are very few actual “aerobatic boxes” that one can plan to avoid. "Most" aerobatics are just done in the available airspace that meets FAR 91.303.
 
RV8JD said:
I can't read the article either, but the neighbors may be objecting to the noise. At Arlington Airport (KAWO), some folks practice aerobatics over the airport, which airport management has approved. But the neighbors have complained about the noise.
Click to expand...
I live about 1.5miles from a "permanent" acro box (KSGJ) so I know what they mean about noise. Only thing is that I LOVE IT! :D
 
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