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NEW ECi Cylinder AD - Bummer!!!!

newtech

newtech

Well Known Member
Patron
I had to replace one cylinder of my new rebuilt engine before I even had the chance to start it for the first time. Well, happy friggin new year, There is a new ECi AD just out and now my 2000 hour TBO engine is now a 350 hours TBO engine. Since I have 70 hours on it, since first flight in June, my one cylinder that falls within the serial number range needs to be replaced within the next 280 hours.

Heading over to the hangar now to perform the visual and compression checks to see if I can fly the plane to Florida in two weeks or if it needs to be grounded pending cylinder replacement. At lest it is Experimental so I am not at the mercy of an A&P.

Here is the AD:
http://cdn1.atp.com/ADs/pdf/092612.pdf?JServSessionIdroot=ad10jnmpo1.JS1
 
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I'm in the same situation with all 4 cylinders on an O-360 that fall into Group B with a 350 hour limit. It has been a little over 1.5 years since the first engine start & total time around 200 hours. Does anybody know if ECI will replace these defective cylinders under warranty? It doesn't seem fair or good business practice to not make things right. That said, I don't have a lot of confidence that even new replacement ECI jugs won't be subject to new AD's in the future.
The list of serial numbers seems to be growing.
 
This is a big one and I feel for you guys.

From the last page of the AD - We estimate the total cost of the AD to U.S. operators to be $10,172,000.

This thing is so big, I wonder if ECI has the resources to make good on it. Hopefully, there will be some warrantee money flowing your way to help off set the pain.
 
The way I read the AD is that it is a replacement for an existing AD and it just expands the Serial Number Range of the existing AD to include MORE cylinders.

The Cylinders have a three (3) year warranty from time placed into service as long as they were placed in service within one year of manufacture.
http://www.eci.aero/pages/news_releases_detail.aspx?n=1010
http://www.eci.aero/pages/warranty_titan.aspx

Contact ECI about replacements on Monday 1-3-2010.
http://www.eci.aero/pages/contact.aspx

I looked on the web site to see if they had something about this new AD that takes effect in February 2010.
Here is a link to an ECI Mandatory Service Bulletin (MSB # 08-01) that appears to match the AD S/N range.
http://www.eci.aero/pdf/08-1.pdf
--- insert from MSB 08-01 ---
6.0 PROCEDURES TO BE FOLLOWED:
Replacement cylinders will be sent in accordance to ECi’s written warranty policy. If you have an affected cylinder(s), go to ECi’s website http://www.eci.aero/pages/services.aspx and complete the Warranty Application Form (T800.1) (http://www.eci.aero/pages/WarrantyApplicationT800.1(03-13-08).doc) online. In order to properly complete the form you must have the cylinder part number, serial number and time in service. If you have any questions you may call us at either 1-800-324-2359 or 210-820-8101 or, if you prefer, you may e-mail us at [email protected].
9.0 ECi CONTACT INFORMATION:
Contact ECi Customer Service at (toll free) 1-800-324-2359, (local) 210-820-8101 or (email) [email protected].
--- end insert from MSB 08-01 ---

Here is a link to the FAA web site with the FAA AD.
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/fd1c80194ba\
0b8da8625769d00695ada/$FILE/2009-26-12.pdf

--- insert AD Quote ---
SUMMARY: The FAA is superseding an existing airworthiness directive (AD) for Lycoming Engines (formerly Textron Lycoming) models 320, 360, and 540 series, ``Parallel Valve'' reciprocating engines, with certain Engine Components, Inc. (ECi) cylinder assemblies, part number (P/N) AEL65102 series ``Titan,'' installed. That AD currently requires initial and repetitive visual inspections and compression tests to detect cracks at the head-to-barrel interface, replacement of cylinder assemblies found cracked, and replacement of certain cylinder assemblies at new, reduced times-in-service. This AD requires the same actions, but for an expanded population of cylinder assemblies. This AD results from reports of 10 additional cylinder head separations since issuing AD 2008-19-05, on cylinder serial numbers not listed in that AD. We are issuing this AD to prevent loss of engine power due to cracks at the head-to-barrel interface and possible engine failure caused by separation of a cylinder head, which could result in loss of control of the aircraft.
DATES: This AD becomes effective February 4, 2010.

Applicability
(c) If your engine has not been overhauled, or not had any cylinder assemblies replaced since new, no further action is required.
(d) This AD applies to the Lycoming Engines (formerly Textron Lycoming) models 320, 360, and 540 series, ``Parallel Valve,'' reciprocating engines listed in Table 1 of this AD, with ECi cylinder assembly, part number (P/N) AEL65102 series ``Titan,'' and with cylinder head, P/N AEL85099, installed.
(1) The applicable cylinder assembly serial numbers (S/Ns) are S/N 1138-02
through S/N 35171-22 (referred to in this AD as Group ``A'' cylinder assemblies); and
(2) S/N 35239-01 through S/N 42179-30 (referred to in this AD as Group ``B'' cylinder assemblies).
(3) The cylinder assembly P/N is at the crankcase end of the cylinder assembly, and might be difficult to see. As a guide in determining if your cylinder assemblies are affected, all affected cylinder assemblies have cylinder head P/N AEL85099. The cylinder head P/N is at the top of the cylinder head, near the intake and exhaust valve springs, and is easier to locate than the cylinder assembly P/N.
(4) The set of numbers appearing on the cylinder, above and to the left of the S/N, in the form of ``123456'' is not used for determining this AD's applicability.
--- end insert AD Quote ---

I have the S/Ns of my ECI TITAN Steel cylinders listed in my engine logbook and this AD will not apply to them. BTW, I change oil at 50 hour intervals and have not added any oil the last two oil changes because the ECI cylinders on my airplane does not use enough oil between changes to add any. It is using oil but only about 1 quart in 50 hours. The ECI cylinders are using less oil than the Superior cylinders did when they had the same time on them but that was over 2,000 hours ago.

From my 28-years of aviation experience, IMHO, ECI has the best customer service of any aircraft engine part manufacturer.
 
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Hey fellas, after looking at this AD, isn't it the same group of serial numbers from the last AD? Looks like they just updated the inspection requirements. :confused:
 
Uh-oh, I have the "bad" cylinder head part numbers on my (not yet run) engine, so now I need to narrow down which serial number group I fall into. But where the heck are the serial numbers? Perhaps they're not visible without pulling a jug? If so, guess I'll be calling Mattituck after the weekend... :confused:

mcb
 
Ugh. Double bummer. I have two from "Group A", and two from "Group B". Am I reading this correctly that "Group B" should be replaced at 350hrs. (period)? No inspection cycle like Group A. We're going to do a little soul searching (and talking to the old wise ones) to figure out what we're going to do. Maybe nothing at all for a while! They haven't exploded yet. Lets see, 10 out of 18,000... I might have many other critical components with a much higher MTBF than that. Ok, the possible results aren't really something to play the numbers with, but that is exactly what this is all about.

Edit: engine builder serial number documentation not quite perfect. I have one Group B and three Group A. We ended up deciding to replace all.
 
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Guess poor Mahlon is going get slammed on Monday:(
My jugs were in the group that just required a compression check and visual inspection last time, they were good matter of fact at my annual in Sept everything was mid 70's and up. SoI know my jugs are in this group guess I gotta figure out which group they fall in and take it from their:rolleyes:
 
There are two serial numbers.

One for the cylinder, hard to read on a complete engine, and one for the cylinder head along the side of the cylinder head. Just inside the baffling, if you have installed the engine. Refer to page 4 of the AD.

Good luck,
David
 
It makes me wonder if my yet to be delivered ECi cylinders will be part of this AD. The way my rebuild is going, it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

BTW, there is a story on AOPA's web site about a guy who did a 180 and returned to land after one cylinder gave up. The picture showed the piston at TDC and the top of the cylinder missing. Makes me wonder if that was an ECi cylinder or not.
 
N941WR said:
It makes me wonder if my yet to be delivered ECi cylinders will be part of this AD. The way my rebuild is going, it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

BTW, there is a story on AOPA's web site about a guy who did a 180 and returned to land after one cylinder gave up. The picture showed the piston at TDC and the top of the cylinder missing. Makes me wonder if that was an ECi cylinder or not.
Click to expand...

Hey Bill, if you're just getting your cylinders then they'll probably be OK. I bought my entire ECI 0-360 kit almost a year and a half ago...all of my serial numbers are in the 48,000 range. The AD s/n range goes up to 42,000, I believe. Not sure how their serial number scheme works, but it appears to advance chronologically. If I had to guess, I'd say the 42,000 and older cylinders are at least 2 years old.
 
...and just falling...

lostpilot28 said:
...... If I had to guess, I'd say the 42,000 and older cylinders are at least 2 years old.
Click to expand...

...outside the warranty period if they were put into service soon after delivery.

The expanded s/n list hit a buddy (all 4) and his warrant period expired last month...:mad:
 
ECi MSB

There are two serial numbers.

One for the cylinder, hard to read on a complete engine, and one for the cylinder head along the side of the cylinder head. Just inside the baffling, if you have installed the engine. Refer to page 4 of the AD.
Click to expand...

Photo 3 in the ECi Mandatory Service Bulletin shows exactly where to look for the all important serial number and photo 4 in the MSB shows the other identifying marks (part numbers). I checked my serial numbers when the first AD came out and was able to get all 4 with minimal baffle dissassembly using a flashlight, inspection mirror, and the help of my son. MSB is at this link:

http://www.eci.aero/pdf/08-1.pdf

It's interesting to note that the ECi MSB posted on their web site is on rev 3 but does not agree with the AD posted in first post of this thread at least as far as the expanded serial number range for the Group 'B' cylinders. The MSB still says cylinders can be replaced with serial numbers 37017 and higher while the AD expands Group 'B' to include 37017-xx through 42179-xx.

Group 'A' (subject to the inspections but don't require replacement at 350 hrs) range reads the same as before, so all the cylinders added to the updated AD are Group 'B' cylinders limited to 350 hrs....bummer is probably an understatement for those affected. I'm not happy about my Group 'A' cylinders, but feel fortunate as I didn't miss the Group 'B' numbers by much (so far....I'm hoping we don't see Group 'B' expand in the other direction with a later AD revision).
 
az_gila said:
...outside the warranty period if they were put into service soon after delivery.

The expanded s/n list hit a buddy (all 4) and his warrant period expired last month...:mad:
Click to expand...

According to ECi's web site they have extended the warranty period to FIVE years, which I believe begins after the first engine start.
 
David for several years the ECI Titans were the choice of many rebuilders and "clone" manufacturers including TMX (one of which I have) and I had planned to do first start in April. I can't check my S/N's now as I'm in the sunny Southwest and "Toots" is at 3K6. Odds are really good that I have the problem based on the engine build date. If I find I have to replace the jugs you are more than welcome to help!

Larry
 
David-aviator said:
Why are so many guys buying ECI cylinders rather than Lycoming?
Click to expand...

For me it was the nickle-carbide cylinder lining. This allows almost instant break in and very little oil consumption. My father in law is a metallurgist and my wife was too before going the MD route. They firmly believe tha the materials in the ECI engines are far superior to those used by the other manufactures. ECI is using materials and techniques that have been well proven since the 60's, while lycoming is using materials technology from the 30's.

One thing to rememger is that everyone has had recalls or ADs at some point or another--it wasn't long ago that Lycoming cranks were suspect, which IMHO is a much bigger deal. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

I'm lucky in that all of my cylinders are in the 48,xxx range, with one in the 79,xxx range. I took delivery of my engine in late 2007. It uses less than 1 quart of oil in 50 hours and compression on all 4 cylinders after the first 120 hours was (79-80)/80. Cold.

My condolences to those that are affected. That's really harsh. If the serial number range keeps expanding, I may be joining you.
 
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All I could find was this...

newtech said:
According to ECi's web site they have extended the warranty period to FIVE years, which I believe begins after the first engine start.
Click to expand...

...on a 2008 Warranty document....

Engine Components, Inc. (ECi?) hereby warrants each new TITAN? brand cylinder assembly, which it ships with an accompanying FAA form 8130, to be free from defects in material and workmanship (parts and labor) under normal use and service for a period of three (3) years from the date of first operation or at the manufacturer?s recommended time between overhaul (TBO), which ever comes first. The date of first operation must not exceed one (1) year from the date of shipment from ECi.

and

ECi further warrants each Nickel+Carbide? cylinder bore to remain free of corrosion and wear beyond service limits in normal operating conditions during TBO or for a period of sixty (60) months following date of first operation, subject to the limitations noted in paragraph one above, whichever event occurs first. This extended warranty for the cylinder bore is voided if the ring part numbers installed in the cylinder are not approved in writing by ECi at the time the cylinder was installed on the engine.

Are they calling detached cylinder heads "wear beyond limits"...:)... or is there a more recent document I missed?

The new list extends to more than 3 years ago...
 
Mine are in the 62xxx serial numbers

Bill,

My nickel cylinders were manufactured in Aug 2009 and are in the 62xxx serial numbers. I would hope any cylinders from 2009 would be okay. It will be a least another year before I fire off my rebuild. We are in 2010 now so your luck is gonna change for the good. Hang in there puddy tat.
 
With all the resources and technology available today, it blows my mind that any of these parts could end up with ADs. We're paying well over $20,000.00 for these engines.

I know there's a lot of variables here, but geeze it's the same thing that has been being built since the 50's. If we can't figure it out after 50 some years, we probably never will.

I know, I know, If I think I could build something better, why don't I.

I'm just saying.
 
Well I pulled the cowl and the front baffles today and yep sure enough all my cylinders are in the AD. I had white residue on the inter cylinder baffle and lots of pait chipping off around the exhaust port, so for now "Queenie" is grounded:( Compression at the last annual was fine but from what I see the prudent thing to do is get this looked at and fixed, I have a trusted A&P coming next week to look and pull the jugs off for me. A call is going out to ECI first thing in the AM on Monday, we will see:)
 
Are tapper finned cylinders affected.

I have one cylinder in the serial number range with the head part number AEL85099, but the cylinder assembly part number is TISN12.0X11SA. That is the experimental taper finned cylinder. Am I in the clear with these?
 
I bit the bullet shortly after this AD came out as I've seen the result of a head coming loose and wanted nothing to do with it. Mine were group A and ECI agreed to replace them at a pro-rated price which I thought was very fair (cost me less than half price for a brand new top end that had about 700hrs on it). The new ones I got in mid 2008 were 53XXX s/n's.
 
What a Bummer

I checked my engine, which I was just about to start mounting, and it looks like it's got all four jugs in the newly expanded "Group B" category.

I guess some phone calls on Monday will be in order. Sure hope that the warranty from either Mattituck or ECi will soften the blow.

Not a great way to start 2010.
 
Easy way to check SN's

A "relatively" easy way to check the serial numbers, especially on cylinders 1 and 4 can be done as follows.

Take a 1 inch wide piece of cardstock about 6 inches long and drizzle hot wax from a burning candle on then end (about 2 inches). Place this between the cylinders over the serial numbers and press down with a popcycle stick or something. The cool (cold) jug will set the warn wax and make a very nice wax impression of the numbers. No need to remove any baffles.

I checked mine today. I'm in the 53XXX range. I bought this engine in Feb 2009 and just started flying it.
 
Date Ranges......

This might help people know if they are group A or Group B. Since my engine was assembled in Nov 05 - I think I can rule out Group B. I it is interesting that there could be some folks who installed new cyls after the 08 AD that could get caught again.

The following data is from here:

(note: this date data is from the old 2008 AD - there are more Group B cylinders in the AD from 2 days ago.)


GROUP ?A? AFFECTED SERIAL NUMBERS:

Group ?A? cylinders that require inspection or replacement are included in serial numbers 1138-02 through 35171-22, which are part of Group ?B? (refer to paragraphs 8.0 and 8.1). These cylinders were produced between August 2002 and December 5, 2005. Note that this range of serial numbers includes other products that are not subject to this inspection. Only cylinders identified in accordance with paragraphs above and with serial numbers within this range are affected.


GROUP ?B? AFFECTED SERIAL NUMBERS:(note: this date data is from the old 2008 AD - there are more Group B cylinders in the AD from 2 days ago.)
Group ?B? cylinders that require a one time inspection and an operating time dictated removal in accordance with stipulations identified in 4.0 above are included in section 8.1 below. These cylinders were produced between Dec. 6, 2005 and Feb. 7, 2006. As detailed in paragraph 4.0, this range of serial numbers includes other products, and only cylinder assemblies meeting the requirements established in Paragraph 4.0 are listed in Section 8.1.
 
UgggH

All four of my cylinders are affected by the AD. At least it is winter and not prime time flying weather.
 
ECi Response

Thought I'd pass on what I learned today from ECi....

In my situation, I have four cylinders in Group B. ECi did not hesitate in offering a new set of cylinders, after I send them my present set. Since I have no hours on my engine yet, they will provide new jugs at no cost, and will also pay for shipping from the factory. If there were time on the cylinders, the refund would be pro-rated, with the maximum net charge being about $450 for a full set of four.

My out-of-pocket cost will be limited to the labour to remove and replace, along with shipping of the old cylinders back to ECi.

All in all, I am left with the feeling that ECi is genuinely interested in customer care. I am sure that this AD will cost them some serious money, so it speaks highly for their commitment to supporting their customers. It's always good to see that in a company.

Oh yes, I also asked what the underlying cause was for the problem. It turns out to be a machining issue, where some cylinder outer diameters (where they connect with the barrels) were slightly too large and therefore overstressed. There apparently is no issue with the metallurgy.

Now, on with building.....
Gunter
 
I wanted to back up what Gunter said, I have 4 group A cylinders and although you DO NOT have to send them in I am. ECI has been great to work with and they do seem to care about what I want.
And like Gunter said its a machining issue not a metal issue
 
KirkGrovesRV8 said:
I wanted to back up what Gunter said, I have 4 group A cylinders and although you DO NOT have to send them in I am. ECI has been great to work with and they do seem to care about what I want.
And like Gunter said its a machining issue not a metal issue
Click to expand...

Btw - Besides what the SB says, does anyone know more about group A? My cyls are in group A and show no sign of problem (yet?), but at some point I might get tired of 50 hr compression checks.

i.e. why are the group A cylinders included? Same fab? Same process? Some other reason?
 
Ok here is what I know:rolleyes:
The problem is the cylinder head to barrel interface, It's not an issue with the metal. ECI told me (and a bunch of other folks) that you don't need to send the group A cylinders in just keep an eye on them, personally I want to know for sure that they are OK. ECI is working on a AMOC (alternate means of compliance) that entails die testing it for cracks separating the cylinder head from the barrel taking measurements and by either plating or milling making sure everything is correct and reassemble the cylinder. So from my very simple mind if the FAA signs off on this AMOC your group A cylinders will be free and clear (if you have them looked at) if the FAA does not sign off then you still got to do the 50hr checks.
All of this is just my take on what I was told, so if you are like me and have group A cylinders you just have to decide what you are comfortable with.
Me... personally I am going to be conservative and have the AMOC done, I don't want to look back and say "oh maybe I should have had them looked at"
Anyway just my take on it:)
And to try to answer Kevin's question they have had 30 group A cylinders separate so that is why it has been included in the AD,
 
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Good response Kirk. I'll hang out for a while with the 50 hr inspections if/when AMOC is announced, then I'll think again...
 
50-hr compression checks

I was a little confused from the AD on one point regarding the group A cylinders from paragraphs (B) and (E). Do they want you to do compression tests every 50 hrs regardless of how many hours are on the engine, or do you only have to start the 50-hr tests after you exceed 350 hrs of engine time?

thanks

erich
 
Just to follow up after a week worth of discussion in my household. (just in case there is any monkey see, monkey do.) We have decided to replace all of our Group A and Group B ECI cylinders. The engine builder's serial number documentation was a little out of whack so I ended up pulling a couple of baffles to check numbers. I didn't expect to have to be doing that so soon. We have three Group A and one Group B. ECI is totally covering the cost of the Group B cylinder. I'm very happy with that. They would prefer to just do a repair on the Group As, so otherwise they're just providing a discount on replacing those. The cost still hurts but we've chosen a slightly more expensive path with this for our own good reasons.
 
What should I do?

My ECI cylinders are in group B. The most recent AD calls for replacement of these cylinders at 350 hours. I have over 350 hours on them.

I spoke to ECI earlier this week and they said they would replace my old ones with new ones for a total cost of $480.

I just spoke to them this morning to make arrangements for shipping and was told they now intend to rework and return the old cylinders for all experimentals rather than replace with new. They would do this at no cost, other than shipping. They say this alternate means of compliance has been submitted to the FAA, but not yet approved.

I'm not comfortable with this. Not only would my plane be grounded for several weeks (or months?) what I would end up with are the old cylinders that still do not comply with the AD, unless the FAA aproves the alternate means of compliance.

My thoughts/options are:
- Replace the ECI cylinders with Lycoming, all at my cost, and get an attorney to try and recover from ECI.
- Follow the inspection recommendations in the AD and continue to fly; there are no indications of problems now.
- Go with ECIs propsed rework of the old cylinders and hope the alternate means of compliance works.
- Or ????

What do you all think?

Dave C
RV 7 grounded
 
Dave C said:
My ECI cylinders are in group B. The most recent AD calls for replacement of these cylinders at 350 hours. I have over 350 hours on them.

I spoke to ECI earlier this week and they said they would replace my old ones with new ones for a total cost of $480.

I just spoke to them this morning to make arrangements for shipping and was told they now intend to rework and return the old cylinders for all experimentals rather than replace with new. They would do this at no cost, other than shipping. They say this alternate means of compliance has been submitted to the FAA, but not yet approved.

I'm not comfortable with this. Not only would my plane be grounded for several weeks (or months?) what I would end up with are the old cylinders that still do not comply with the AD, unless the FAA aproves the alternate means of compliance.

My thoughts/options are:
- Replace the ECI cylinders with Lycoming, all at my cost, and get an attorney to try and recover from ECI.
- Follow the inspection recommendations in the AD and continue to fly; there are no indications of problems now.
- Go with ECIs propsed rework of the old cylinders and hope the alternate means of compliance works.
- Or ????

What do you all think?

Dave C
RV 7 grounded
Click to expand...

For what it's worth: I have 605 hours on my Group B cylinders, no problems whatsoever...but I spent $480+ the Monday after the AD came out, Rosie
 
Rosie said:
For what it's worth: I have 605 hours on my Group B cylinders, no problems whatsoever...but I spent $480+ the Monday after the AD came out, Rosie
Click to expand...

I'm glad to see we're in good company. Tanya wants to fly over large bodies of water IFR (I Follow Rosie). We'll be flying in another week or so.
 
scard said:
I'm glad to see we're in good company. Tanya wants to fly over large bodies of water IFR (I Follow Rosie). We'll be flying in another week or so.
Click to expand...


Us too we want to take some big trips in the spring, going to the Bahamas again, even thou we have group A cylinders I still sent them in for the AMOC:D
 
I think that it is really BS that ECi is trying to treat experimentals differently than certified engines. If we buy cylinders from ECi, don't we pay the same price and expect the same reliability? I was told the same thing right after the AD can out that for $485 ECi would replace all four Group B cylinders. But a couple of days later they told me that now they would only "rework" my old cylinders (in direct violation of the AD). Maybe a class action will be needed to force ECi to make our engines as "safe" as those so called certified airplanes.

Hindsight being what is is, I wish I had ordered a true Lycoming from Vans. Maybe a few more dollars, but a lot less problems.
 
rv4ator said:
Hindsight being what is is, I wish I had ordered a true Lycoming from Vans. Maybe a few more dollars, but a lot less problems.
Click to expand...

The thing is....I remember a time back in the 90's when the quality on Lycoming cylinders was so bad that they were essentially junk. Cooling fins were so full of metal flashing that no air could get through. Exhaust valves were breaking left and right due to overheating, and valve guides wore out in a few hundred hours. We were all pretty thankful when ECI (and Superior) came along with re-engineered components that addressed the specific problems people were having with the "Genuine Lyc" parts.

The point being - they all have their problems....and their pluses! At least that's how I see it....
 
rv4ator said:
I think that it is really BS that ECi is trying to treat experimentals differently than certified engines. If we buy cylinders from ECi, don't we pay the same price and expect the same reliability? I was told the same thing right after the AD can out that for $485 ECi would replace all four Group B cylinders. But a couple of days later they told me that now they would only "rework" my old cylinders (in direct violation of the AD). Maybe a class action will be needed to force ECi to make our engines as "safe" as those so called certified airplanes.

Hindsight being what is is, I wish I had ordered a true Lycoming from Vans. Maybe a few more dollars, but a lot less problems.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. I have been issued with an RMA and a promise of new cylinders for a fee. Several days later ECI contacted me and seemed to indicate they wanted to re-work them now and I have to freight them back.

In Australia we must follow the ADs produced by the country of origin so what they are suggesting is not legal at this point. In the meantime I have an engine that may or not be safe.

The freight cost and downtime will be much greater this way.

Let's hope they decide to do the right thing.

Cheers
Richard
 
Not to throw more flames on the fire but everyone should think about their group A cylinders, a super cub from my home field had a group A cylinder go last Friday:rolleyes:
 
KirkGrovesRV8 said:
I wanted to back up what Gunter said, I have 4 group A cylinders and although you DO NOT have to send them in I am. ECI has been great to work with and they do seem to care about what I want.
And like Gunter said its a machining issue not a metal issue
Click to expand...

It was a change in the way they machined the heads that did not work......:eek:
 
We just finished the task of replacing all of our cylinders. It took us one week and about 35 hours total. We test ran it on the ramp yesterday evening. It fired right up and ran without any issues so far. Now I'm ready for good weather and a test flight and break-in.
 
Cost?

Hi Scott,

What was your approx out of pocket cost to take care of the cylinder AD issue?

scard said:
We just finished the task of replacing all of our cylinders. It took us one week and about 35 hours total. We test ran it on the ramp yesterday evening. It fired right up and ran without any issues so far. Now I'm ready for good weather and a test flight and break-in.
Click to expand...
 
KirkGrovesRV8 said:
Ok here is what I know:rolleyes:
… separating the cylinder head from the barrel taking measurements and by either plating or milling making sure everything is correct and reassemble the cylinder…
Click to expand...
I’m curious how they are going to do this. Here is what I have been told about how Lycoming mates the head to the barrel. (Please correct me, if I’m wrong. I have not sent this done but have only been told by someone who has.) ECi might assemble their cylinders differently.

...the steel barrel is mated to the cast aluminum head. This is accomplished by heating the head in an oven, chilling the barrel in a refrigerator, and then quickly screwing them together. As they return to equal temperatures, the head contracts and the barrel expands to create a tight interference fit. After the head and barrel have been mated, the cylinder base flange mounting holes are drilled.

The next step is to grind and hone the cylinder bore to its final fit and finish. The bore must be exactly the proper diameter and perfectly round, within less than a thousandth of an inch of new specifications.

The bore is not precisely cylindrical—it is tapered in the top two inches of piston ring travel, usually by .003" to .007". This choke is used to compensate for the fact that when the cylinder is at operating temperature, the top of the barrel is considerably hotter than its base, and therefore it expands more. If the cylinder were not adequately choked at room temperature, the piston-to-cylinder clearance at top-dead-center would become loose and sloppy as the cylinder heats up, and the rings would flex excessively.

...
Click to expand...
(That quote is from: http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182902-1.html.)

Maybe this is how they are going to fix them: (From the same source as above.)
Rebarrelling
One more cylinder reconditioning technique is simply to de-mate the head from the barrel, discard the old barrel, and screw a new steel barrel into the old head. For many years, ECI has been the predominant cylinder rebarreller. ECI's replacement barrels are made of through-hardened steel and are not nitrided.
Lately, ECI has started offering replacement steel barrels with silicon carbide particles impregnated into the surface. As always, they have a catchy name for this: CermiSteel(TM).
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How it's going with my cylinders

Well, as luck would have it, I have 1 cylinder from group "A" and 3 from "B". I discussed it with Sue at Aero Sport. She had Tim Morland get in touch with me. Below is the thread. Kinda long. Short story is they're reconditioning all four cylinders at no charge to me except for shipping the cylinders to them. I'll be removing the cylinders this weekend and sending them in. I'll use the time to get my paper work in order for my inspection. Any tips on putting the cylinders back on would be appreciated.

Almost there,

John Barker
RV-8 N819WB
========================================================
John, they are on the way today.

Tim
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From: John Barker [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 9:01 AM
To: Tim Morland
Subject: RE: ECI cylinders

Good morning Tim,

Thanks for your offer to supply boxes. Please send the boxes to:

John Barker
800 Pinewood Lane
Oceanside, OR 97134

Cheers,

John
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tim Morland [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:09 PM
To: John Barker
Subject: RE: ECI cylinders

Answers to your questions:

1- Yes we want the pistons and rings with the cylinders.
2- If you have cylinder boxes use those or some other heavy duty, moving type box. If not I can send you boxes. Let me know if I need to do that and I?ll have some shipped to you.
3- I?m not sure. How does AeroSport handle their warranty when it has been sitting waiting for airframe installation for a couple years? Does their warranty start with first flight?
4- Unfortunately we have no stock to swap you out with so we will have to rework yours.
5- We heat the cylinder to separate the head and barrel so the paint will be discolored.
6- We are reworking experimental cylinders now and will do it on certified cylinders as soon as the FAA approves our rework as an alternate means of compliance to the AD. Communication with them has been poor on this AD and we had applied for it (AMOC) long ago but it was overlooked until the AD was released. As soon as the AMOC is approved we expect to be bombarded with certified cylinder for rework.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Tim Morland
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From: John Barker [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:53 AM
To: Tim Morland
Subject: RE: ECI cylinders

Hello Tim,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I appreciate knowing what the process is and your test results.

I do have a few questions:
1. Do you want the pistons?
2. Do I use my own packaging or do you send me appropriate shipping containers?
3. Will these "re-worked" cylinders have new warranty?
4. Is there any way to speed up the process? e.g. swap the cylinders for ones already done?
5. What about the custom paint?
6. Are you re-working instead of replacing all cylinders affected by this AD? Or are certified installations being treated differently.

As I mentioned in my e-mail, this engine is in my RV-8 that I just completed. I was awaiting final inspection when the AD was issued. Three weeks re-work time will postpone the inspection date by at least a month and a half. I'm sure you can appreciate my desire to speed up the process.

Best regards,

John
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tim Morland [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: ECI cylinders

John,

I have received your warranty application assigned you customer number 8642 and the RMA number is 35857. Please write that RMA number on or near the address label of the shipping box when you send them in.

We have developed a stronger head/barrel joint and incorporated that joint into all our new cylinders produced in the last two years. During the development of that joint we ran the cylinders on a fatigue rig until they failed and the final result is that we can take a used Group B cylinder with reworked threads and a new Lycoming cylinder and run them to failure and the reworked cylinder lasts three times longer than the new Lycoming.

We will rework your cylinders at no charge and pay the return freight. Since your cylinders are such low time there won?t be any need to replace valves, piston, etc but we will certainly inspect them to be sure. Expect the process to take three weeks in our plant.

Keep your rocker arms, rocker cover, push rod tubes, piston pin and fuel/primer nozzles; we just want the cylinder. The shipping address is on the warranty application in the lower right corner.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Tim Morland

Western Territory Manager
Engine Components, Inc.
 
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