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new guy with questions

diamond

Well Known Member
I'm new to aviation and am looking for a kit plane to start building in the next year or so. I have done some preliminary research and like the RV7, among others. I'm very green at this, so please excuse the dumb questions.

1) One of the main roles of a plane for me would be to make frequent trips to my hunting land, which is 250 straight miles away. I would like to be able to land on a grass runway, which is yet to be constructed, but could be about 900 feet long. Is that long enough for an RV7 to land and take off comfortably? Even more important, would it have to be kept in pristine condition, or can the RV7 land if the grass gets a little high and there are a few mole holes that emerge between trips over there. I know a bush plane would be ideal for landing, but I want to travel faster than what most bush planes can do.

2) I did the cost estimator on the website and cost comes out to be 70k and up. Does that sound right? I had hoped to get it lower, but don't want to skimp too much on components.

3) Is the quick build kit worth the extra 10k? How much time does that save me in construction? For that matter, what is a good estimate on RV7 build time for a person that has good aptitude for building things?
 
Welcome to VAF!!!!

Mark, welcome aboard the good ship VAF:D

Good to have you.

900' should be fine for the aircraft-----unless it is up high in the mountains, or someplace where the temps are way high, or some of each.

You state you are "new to aviation"-------your own skill level will probably end up being the limiting factor on the use of a short strip.

A 7, with a IO360 and constant speed prop should do a good job for your needs.

If you havent already done so, I urge you to join a local chapter of the EAA

Good luck, hopefully someone with a 7 that is local to you will give you a ride.
 
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Let's start with a couple of questions of our own (not putting you on the spot but to help narrow down the variables). Landing distance depends on, amongst other things, altitude; so tell us more about your proposed strip. Elevation? Obstacles? Will you be building a -7 or a -7A? How are your short/soft field techniques?

As for building time, the estimate is that the quick-build saves about half the total hours. But what does that mean in the real world. Building is not something you want to rush (especially when you will be sitting high in the air in the result) but the process can be sped up by putting more hours per day/week/month in, up to a point. Also, you may be quite good with sheet metal but have problems with avionics, so your savings via a quick-build may not equate with someone else's experience.

Cost is another wildly variable number. You probably don't need a full IFR panel for flights to a grass strip that won't have a published approach but having extra capability never hurts in my opinion. You can also go lower on engine/prop; the RV will perform quite well with the minimum equipment in most situations. What, in minutes, is the difference between, say, 200mph and 180mph on a 250 mile trip (just pulling numbers out of a hat, but you get the idea).

Check out the EAA Bookstore for Kitplane Construction. The author devotes a good bit of page space to discussion of the costs and benefits of buying vs. building and how to select a kit based on a number of factors. Hopefully, this will help inform your response and further questions.
 
another option

The RV can certainly fit the mission.

But to expand you're thinking... For flying to a hunting strip with a short and rough runway, I think I'd also look at high wing STOL aircraft. You might find a high wing is pretty good for surveying the hunting property, and some high wing models might be better for loading gear and such. As an example, check out the Glasair Sportsman 2+2.

Again, you can't go wrong with any RV either.
 
Thanks for the info. Here's more info. When I said I'm new to aviation, I meant brand new. No flying experience, but have always wanted to do it. Now is the time, so I will be a novice when my build is done. My land is agricultural land in South Dakota, so low elevation and fairly flat. It does get hot there in the summer (upper 90s). One concern is whether the RV7 (or any of the RVs for that matter) would do well if my grass runway is somewhat primitive and potentially sporting 6 inches of growth from one visit to the next. One end of the runway has a few trees about 40 feet tall, but they would be a good 200 feet from the end of the runway.

7 vs 7A? I don't know, but that was going to be another question. Is one easier to land and take off? especially on grass strips? Personally I like the looks of the taildragger, but would go with whichever is most practical for my use.

In response to dhall, I actually looked at the STOL Sportsman, but it isn't quite as fast as the 7 and not as good of gas mileage as I want. In addition to my hunting land, I would also like to routinely go cross country on 1000 mile trips down to Texas.
 
Welcome Mark....

....900' is mighty short for a newbie pilot and also for a lot of experienced pilots. The airplane is capable but maybe not so for the pilot. If there are no obstructions on the approach it's possible. My buddy has 2000' grass with trees on both ends and I use most of that to get in and stop.

A -7 sounds like the way to go for a lot of unimproved strips that you seem to want to visit because the tri-gears have dug in and flipped on occasion if there are mole holes and so on.

Regards,
 
To be blunt, there is no way I would recommend a RV7 with your experience and the conditions you have proposed, one mistake/burp of the engine and your toast.

The tall grass/rough field alone is enough... I suppose you could put some big fat tires on there and leave off the wheel pants but that is not what these planes are built for.
 
The cargo space will be a deciding factor too. Unless someone is driving the route to haul your gear (guns), it will be tough to pack what you need in the RV7.
 
Look at the Murphy Rebel. I don't recommend a RV for what you're trying to do. The rebel w/ a 0-320 I believe goes around 140 kts ground speed, great short field characteristics and you can put a seat in the back or carry 300 lbs behind the seat.

Good Luck!!
 
I've been flying RVs for over 20 years. I've been flying my -6 out of my 1500" strip in Texas for about 15. I would not be comfortable with 900' on a daily basis. Especially with a newly minted pilot certificate. Cross winds will be your worst enemy. You carry a little extra speed for the X-wind component but it doesn't help you stop any quicker.
I don't have a problem with a 900' strip, occasionally, but wouldn't want that at home.
I think the RV-7 is not the ideal airplane for your situation.
 
New Pilot, 900 ft grass

NO, you should not plan on landing on a 900' strip, especially an unimproved one. With over 40 years of experience, I could, but would not land there, unless a real need arose. A good pilot has good judgement, and that comes with experience, not luck. A new pilot has no experience and can hurt himself depending on luck.

Best wishes,
Jerry Martin
 
Why not look at the -9?

It can land shorter, slower, and take off in less space than the -7. (Unless you put in the 200 hp engine in the -7 but that restricts your useful load.)

Other than giving up acro, the -9 is identical to the -7.

That said, the plane I would buy for your mission is the Highlander by Just Aircraft. Granted it is much slower than the RV's but it also stalls down in the mid 20 mph range which allows it to operate out of a few hundred feet. Truely a good STOL bush plane with a 700 lb useful load, is a blast to fly, and is wider on the inside than our RV's!

With the 29" bush tires on the three that I flew, you can drop it in from almost any height and not damage the thing. This is one very cool plane!

PS. Welcome to the VAF forum.
 
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Well, in your original post you were asking specific questions about RV's, which I tried to answer.

But, seeing as the idea of other planes has been brought up, I must agree that your criteria is going to be better filled with something other than a RV.

Take a look at the Bearhawk for a real workhorse of a homebuilt bush plane.

Good luck in whatever you choose, personally, as long as I am spending your money:D, I recommend both the Bearhawk, and the RV7.

Different missions.

Enjoy
 
I'm new to aviation and am looking for a kit plane to start building in the next year or so. I have done some preliminary research and like the RV7, among others. I'm very green at this, so please excuse the dumb questions.

1) One of the main roles of a plane for me would be to make frequent trips to my hunting land, which is 250 straight miles away. I would like to be able to land on a grass runway, which is yet to be constructed, but could be about 900 feet long. Is that long enough for an RV7 to land and take off comfortably? Even more important, would it have to be kept in pristine condition, or can the RV7 land if the grass gets a little high and there are a few mole holes that emerge between trips over there. I know a bush plane would be ideal for landing, but I want to travel faster than what most bush planes can do.

2) I did the cost estimator on the website and cost comes out to be 70k and up. Does that sound right? I had hoped to get it lower, but don't want to skimp too much on components.

3) Is the quick build kit worth the extra 10k? How much time does that save me in construction? For that matter, what is a good estimate on RV7 build time for a person that has good aptitude for building things?

Your mission would be better filled with a big SUV and they are cheap right now.

The dream of flying to and from a hunting site without regular attention to a 900' runway on the other end won't work. Snow, ice, rain, wind, falling trees, weeds, badger holes and uncut grass will make the trip a stressful event now and then. If the weather is perfect one day, it can be totally different 3 days later. You may spend a week waiting to get out while your flashlight and cell phone batteries run down and you are a no show at your job.

Personal flying is useful for many missions but sometimes it does not fit. If its just about traveling to and from this private hunting property, you will be disappointed. Flying in and out of 900' is a challenge. It may be a while for a new pilot to get spun up enough to do it.
 
new guy ?

welcome!
hard not to want an RV, I did!!!!
now that I've had it just 1.5 years, and 30 hours, my comments.......
you say other planes 'aren't fast enough'.
I find that I spend an hour planning, loading, pre-flighting, fueling etc. for a :40 flight, then the same unloading, parking, arranging the rest of the 'mission'.
airspeed is almost a non-factor!
I agree you should investigate the classic high-wing, fat tired bush planes for your mission!
..and why not make one of the great STOL mountain flying courses a part of your training...you will live longer, happier, and bend less metal!
you might even be able to buy insurance!
 
Welcome to Aviation, New Guy!

First, you have already shown good judgement by asking the questions to those who have gone before...keep asking questions and learning. This simple exchange of information could end up saving you a world of heartache.
Second, pilots are the most opinionated group of people on the earth, so you will never have a shortage of advice...sometimes conflicting :eek:

I am a low-hour (150 hours) pilot who has just started flying my -8. There is NO WAY that I would consider dropping her into a 900' strip unless my engine were dead and there were no other options...I am not that good ... yet.

The key is surviving your formative years is to slowly build on your flying skillset without overstepping and balling up an airplane. Keep asking great questions and weighing the options...enjoy the ride!
 
Short Field RV-7(A)

I consider myself to be an "average" RV pilot. I have 465 hrs in my RV-6A. I can honestly say there is NO WAY I'd attempt to land on a 900' grass strip!

Van's performance data is "Take off distance & Landing distance" not REQUIRED RUNWAY LENGTH.

I hope you decide to do a 7(A), you won't be dissapointed, but please plan on taking the Suburban 4x4 to deer camp! I would hate to see you hurt yourself and/or bend your new airplane. :)>).

Tommy Walker
RV-6A, N 350 TW
465 Hrs & "Climbing"!
 
Thanks for all the great info. Geez, with the great support on this site, that's a huge reason alone to want an RV. OK, so 900 feet is a "no go" for landing an RV on grass. I'll have to see if there is another stretch on my property that offers twice as much distance. I also like the suggestion that maybe the RV9 would be better, requiring slightly less landing distance. I'll tell you what would really be handy for me right now would be a way to do side-by-side comparisons of performance and spec data for the various RVs and also other kit planes. Does anyone know if the Vans website has a tool that lines the data up side-by-side for easy comparison? Or other sites that do this with other lit planes? Thanks
 
Also check out Rans 7, it does not have nearly the sort of a speed of a RV but it is more suiting to your applications and needs and price range. It is a very good and capable plane.

Mehrdad RV-7A
IO360
 
I'll tell you what would really be handy for me right now would be a way to do side-by-side comparisons of performance and spec data for the various RVs and also other kit planes. Does anyone know if the Vans website has a tool that lines the data up side-by-side for easy comparison? Or other sites that do this with other lit planes? Thanks

There's nothing like an Excel spreadsheet for that and web pages of spec's.

There's been some great suggestions on alternatives for you - Glastar/Sportsman, Murphy Rebel, Bearhawk, etc. Just hit those web sites and fill in the data on a spreadsheet. The numbers will speak to you themselves.

I've often thought about the Glastar/Sportsman myself just for going into outback places and seeing things I wouldn't be able to see otherwise. Of course it's a little slower than the RV's. In the old days of the Glastar under Stoddard-Hamilton, there was an info tape out that showed the flight charateristics, on floats, nose pulled up and plane hanging in the sky still fully controlable, heady stuff for someone used to a Cessna with one wing falling off on a stall (figure of speech here).

However, my mission really is more of cross country flights and making long weekends really fun in far-away places. So for me the RV makes sense. I'm not a hang upside down kind of guy and I'm low hours so an RV9 or RV10 makes sense for my mission and skill levels.

Work the numbers on a spreadsheet and think about how you might actually use the plane. Flying to your land and doing some hunting is one mission but is it enough to justify the cost and expense of an aircraft? Of course is anything? :eek:

Flying is an addiction and one you can't shake! Have fun and even if you don't build/buy an RV - this forum is a great resource for help, ideas, great people and just plain fun.

Oh, and try and make the LOE flyin sometime - it's great! I'm planning on driving down from Santa Fe this year - can't wait. You'll see plenty of RV's there and if that doesn't stoke your dreams - you're already on the other side!

Bob
 
Another option would be to fly in to the local airport, which is a 30 minute drive from my land. I guess that way I wouldn't have to wonder what shape my grass strip is in and whether it is usable. I would then have to leave a vehicle at the airport for transportation to and from my land. Do small airports typically have a service by which a person can leave a car indefinitely for this reason? Wonder what they would charge me to leave a car. That would add an hour to my round trip, but would take the hassle out of maintaining a grass strip.
 
Now I think you're on to something. Comparing the cost and drive time of keeping a vehicle at the local airport vs. the cost and time involved in creating and maintaining a strip -- I think you'll come out way ahead with the existing airport. The grass strip has value if you "really want" one, but if it's just a means to an end I'd go with the existing.

That also takes a key factor out of your mission profile equation and makes it match much better with your desire to fly to TX, etc. Suddenly the same plane may work for both.

And, as a hopefully-new-pilot-someday myself, I think I will stick to big ol' paved runways for a while. If/when you end up developing the necesary skill set, you can always add your grass strip later so you aren't out anything.
 
Most small airports don't charge..

...for you leaving a car parked there.

A friend of mine with a Cirrus has 5 parked at various locations since he has 5 John Deere dealerships and other businesses.

He buys $1000 cheapos at auction and I was surprised at how much vehicle he got for that.

Regards,
 
diamond:
You might try letting them use it as a courtesy car (if they don't have one) in exchange for hangar space when you're there. Of course you'll want them to make sure your car is available for you when you are there.:) It'd be a real bummer show up and not even have your own car there.

Marshall Alexander
RV10 N781DM
 
As I look at various engine options for kit planes (not just RVs), I'm struck with the fact that some run off premium auto gas (ie Rotax). So why wouldn't any home builder prefer this type of engine and fuel as a huge cost savings? I guess the whole ethanol issue and it's deterioration on parts must be one reason, but is that a real issue for consideration or a small detail that doesn't amount to much in the end?
 
As I look at various engine options for kit planes (not just RVs), I'm struck with the fact that some run off premium auto gas (ie Rotax). So why wouldn't any home builder prefer this type of engine and fuel as a huge cost savings? I guess the whole ethanol issue and it's deterioration on parts must be one reason, but is that a real issue for consideration or a small detail that doesn't amount to much in the end?
Ethanol is one big issue but the bigger issue is it is just easier to pull up to the pumps and fill your tanks. Hauling 5 gallon cans is a real PITA and most people don't want to deal with the safety issues associated with hand filling.

Maybe some day all airports will have auto fuel w/o ethanol.
 
No... not at all

would I fly as a new pilot into such a strip. My strip is longer than Mel's and on a hot day, with some luggage and my son... period!... Point blank!... it will not work.
 
The -7 or 7A is an "technically advanced aircraft" (TAA) according to the FAA & insurance companies. Probably not the plane for a rookie. Having said that, the -7 is a GREAT aiplane. I say build it, have someone fly off the hours ,and then get your PPL in the plane. After getting your PPL, the insurance company may make you get some 100 hrs. or so before they insure you.
If you build it, consider a mod to the bulkhead behind the right seat for a "tunnel" to hold long guns/golf clubs. If I hadn't seen this mod, I would not have chosen the -7.
Fox
RV7 - EMP
N43CF reserved
 
Interesting how some say build and others say buy a partially complete kit. I guess the problem I have with buying someone else's project is that I would have to trust that their craftsmanship and attention to detail was on par with mine. With that in mind, is it possible to accurately evaluate someone's partially complete plane and determine how well they have done? I'm guessing it's possible for the seasoned RV builder who knows what to look for, but not for the untrained eye such as mine. For this reason I would tend to stay away from partial builds, unless I had someone I trust who had experience building that could easily drop in and inspect the work. Any comments on this?
 
Mornin' Mark....

There are quite a few pre-buy inspectors on this forum and many EAA members are RV builders. You shouldn't have a problem finding one since RV's are often sold and bought after pre-buys evaluate them.

Check EAA's web site for chapters near you.

Regards,
 
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OK, so I found an orientation on a property that would give a 1300 foot grass runway with no obstructions at either end. Does that still make you uncomfortable for a TO and landing setup for a RV7 and/or RV9? Thanks
 
OK, so I found an orientation on a property that would give a 1300 foot grass runway with no obstructions at either end. Does that still make you uncomfortable for a TO and landing setup for a RV7 and/or RV9? Thanks

It wouldn't bother me in my -9. However, I would want to make sure I'm on the numbers every time and that a go around is always an option. The goal would be to put the wheels on the ground at the very end of the runway, not past it. I would also mark it with "Go around cones so if I'm not on the ground by them, I power up and take another shot, no guessing.

The -9 approachs and lands slower than the -7 so that helps a lot.

To me the big issue is what if you have an engine problem on takeoff? What are you going to hit at the end of that 1300 feet?
 
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OK, so I found an orientation on a property that would give a 1300 foot grass runway with no obstructions at either end. Does that still make you uncomfortable for a TO and landing setup for a RV7 and/or RV9? Thanks

A 9A (and I presume a 9) should do it easily if your airstrip is at a low density altitude however you will need to practice and be proficient in the aircraft first. Suggest a C/S prop for T/O and also to help slow down in the flare. My 9A operates from my 1,400 ft runway at 4,250 ft altitude and with approaches that make it impossible to touch down closer than about 300 ft from the threshold.
Edit. I consider my airstrip about the minimum that I would be comfortable with for regular operations which may involve less that ideal conditions.

Fin
9A
 
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Geez Fin !!
I see you are in Australia? I may have to come try your runway out. I'm sure my wife will understand the need for such a trip.
 
Boy, I must not be a good pilot. I think you are talking about ultralight distances, not GA airplanes. So whoever thinks they would use a 900' or 1300' strip on a regular basis, you are a lot more skilled than I am. Or you are better at rationalizing the risk.

In my opinion, the OP has a nice fantasy in mind, just like everyone else did at some point too. I have to believe that if you get to the point of a PPL, building an RV (or any other plane), and flying enough in some other plane to be competent and insurable in an RV, then you are probably not going to be focusing on landing it next to your house anymore. I think you will have had plenty of other fun and distractions to be happy landing at a nearby field and bumming a ride to your house, without feeling like you are cheated out of your original dream.

And again, for what it's worth, I think what you are describing is a Husky or Cub type plane (whatever the kit version is). That is, regardless of runway length. The condition alone seems to be better aligned with these other planes. You might be able to drive your Ferrari down a rain rutted fire road, but you wouldn't want to do it often. Just one more opinion.:)
 
Geez Fin !!
I see you are in Australia? I may have to come try your runway out. I'm sure my wife will understand the need for such a trip.

No problems. Give us a call if you are in the neighborhood.

Boy, I must not be a good pilot. I think you are talking about ultralight distances, not GA airplanes. So whoever thinks they would use a 900' or 1300' strip on a regular basis, you are a lot more skilled than I am. Or you are better at rationalizing the risk.

In my opinion, the OP has a nice fantasy in mind, just like everyone else did at some point too. I have to believe that if you get to the point of a PPL, building an RV (or any other plane), and flying enough in some other plane to be competent and insurable in an RV, then you are probably not going to be focusing on landing it next to your house anymore. I think you will have had plenty of other fun and distractions to be happy landing at a nearby field and bumming a ride to your house, without feeling like you are cheated out of your original dream.

And again, for what it's worth, I think what you are describing is a Husky or Cub type plane (whatever the kit version is). That is, regardless of runway length. The condition alone seems to be better aligned with these other planes. You might be able to drive your Ferrari down a rain rutted fire road, but you wouldn't want to do it often. Just one more opinion.:)

Andy,
You make some excellent points and I agree that a Husky or Cub would be better suited to my airstrip (post 34). I also agree that to some extent I have rationalized (and accepted) the risk. Your post is a needed counterbalance to people such as myself who say you can operate regularly off a short strip.
I can't speak for others, but here are some of my operating procedures and some background to my RV/airstrip decision.
Yes, I wanted to have my plane on my nearby strip. Before ordering the RV kit, I described my proposed, unbuilt strip to Vans and they said it was doable in a 9A and they suggested a C/S prop. At the time I did not appreciate that I would not be able to touch down closer than about 300 ft from the threshold. Maybe with this extra information, Vans would have had a different opinion.
I do have an overshoot area at each end of the runway where I could extend the landing roll in an emergency such as a brake failure. However I have not needed to use them in the approx. 280 landings to date and typically find that I can comfortably stop in about 2/3 to 3/4 of the runway.
I will not operate from the strip unless the conditions are reasonable (density altitude, wind strength and crosswind), and all T/Os and landings are at well below gross weight.
See Posts 3 and 8: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=42365 for further details.

Fin
9A
 
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Fin

Do you have any photos of your air strip you can post? Is it perfectly level or is there topography to it? Also, How wide is the strip?
 
Boy, I must not be a good pilot. I think you are talking about ultralight distances, not GA airplanes. So whoever thinks they would use a 900' or 1300' strip on a regular basis, you are a lot more skilled than I am. Or you are better at rationalizing the risk...
Andy,

With the RV it is as much about the plane as it is the pilot. RV's are so responsive that it is very easy to put it where you want it.

It also has to do with what you are used to. My home airport is 2300' long by 30' wide with trees on both ends. I regularly land, stop, and back taxi (no taxiway) by midfield w/o using the brakes.

The takeoff roll of an RV, even a low power one like mine will get off the ground in very short order so TO distances are not an issue.
 
I hope your are not as "green" a hunter as you are pilot!:rolleyes:
Everytime we fly over (let alone land there!) my hunting plot, the deer run away for about 3miles! I prefer a high wing "Low and slow" for scouting. You should pick up a Kitfox ($10-15K pre-owned, unbuilt kit) take off and land in 250-300 feet, and Putt around and build hours at 2-3gph!
 
I think before anyone gets into the time and financial commitment of buying a kit or an already built plane you should take flight instruction, and find out if aviation is for you.

The dream is usually not the same as the reality.

Jordan
 
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