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The vans OSH booth

I'll choose rock-solid engineering and honest business sense over flash and glossy literature any day. The vast majority of people that would take on such a project are naturally pragmatic and Van's 'marketing' strategy seems to suit the market well.

I sort of find it charming that in spite of Van's Aircraft relatively huge success they haven't changed their core principles.

Plus, why would Van change a darn thing about his business approach? He's the market leader by a long shot.
 
DuckGuy, You want to sell the idea to your fiancee?

Have her watch the TeamAeroDynamics air show.

Then, tell her you want to build one of those airplanes.:D
 
1. The standoffishness and inability to grab someones attention. This was mentioned by many others in this thread so obviously others are feeling a little lack of love here. It does not have to be Icon or Cirrus but a warm reception is nice. I also am very interested in building a legend cub kit and the booth they had was 2 planes, (current, clean, and well presented) and two very friendly people on folding chairs, one of whom was the owner that welcomed us, answered questions, invited us to the factory and spoke at very long length about it all with us and remembered our names in later days as we stopped back.

I stopped by thier booth at Sun'n'Fun. Standoff-ish, not quite rude but not welcoming by any measure. Good thing they sell a good product.

I was not going to contribute to this post, but that is exactly the impression I got when I was in the SnF booth this year. I have an RV-4 and was interested in talking to someone about upgrades (prop, fairings, etc.) but could not get someone to notice me. I have to admit it WAS busy at the booth, but there was no one that seemed to have the responsibility of greeting people. I stood waiting for about 10 minutes then left....

I would imagine this is the reason for a lot of the "didn't feel welcome" comments...

If you are the type that expects a "Welcome to Moes" type of reception when you enter the tent, you will probably always feel this way when visiting the Van's display at OSH or S&F (entirely not the case at smaller fly-ins or when visiting the factory). It is extremely common ro have a crowd of people standing shoulder to shoulder along the full length of the counter (sometimes two deep) for extended periods during the day. If you are not the assertive type, that get up to the counter and jumps in before the people behind the counter loose there voice (this actually happens), you are not likely to get noticed in the way you may like.
This is a lot of the reason for different experiences with other kit companies... they just don't have the same volume/people load to serve, that is common throughout a lot of the day at Van's tent.
 
"Welcome to Moes" type of reception

Since you quoted my post, I will respond.

I take exception to that comment. I have manned booths at trade shows for the last 30 years, at times with companies of revenues that I expect are less than those of Van's. We tried to never have a customer feel slighted or ignored. We always had a system that would recognize someone coming in our booth, even if there were only two of us manning the booth. We never required a potential customer to be "assertive" else he be ignored.

Because of this background my expectations were perhaps higher than reasonable at SnF this year. But in my mind that does not warrant the derogatory "Welcome to Moes" comment...

Respectfully,
 
I didn't go to AV because of my experience at SNF with the vendors. At SNF, I tried three times in two days to get a chance to ask the Vans guys a few questions about the 9A I am building. I wasn't treated rude, but I wasn't welcomed either. I was a bit put off by the lack of interest I was shown by the Vans people. I understand they are busy and get the same questions asked over and over but at least a smile and a thanks for buying their product would be nice.

When I went to the Vans factory last year, it was exactly the opposite treatment. People were friendly taking my son and I on a tour by ourselves because we had missed the last one. When I asked a question one didn't know, he got a guy that left work already on the phone to answer it for me. I got free posters and an offer for a ride the next day.

The way I see it, the shows are for me to see the different planes, avionics, and tools. I just understand I will not get the time or attention I feel I deserve when I am writing huge checks.

The exception was with the AFS and the Vertical Power guys. They were very friendly and spent as much time as I needed to understand their products. They won a customer.
 
Trade show tents booth persons in booth

For the many of you who have only attended a trade show ( and that is exactly what Airventure is) you don't have even a clue. Do you know what a booth space cost no.... Try thousands...what housing food costs are no? more thousands...transportation of booth and product...no try tens of thousands. The endurance it takes to put up with the crowds who are tire kickers and nay sayers. Try infinite patience especially for a week.

You all should have to work that tent 10 hours a day for 5 days. and have to pay the costs of displaying. Busy trade shows are fun to work and time goes by fast and when you have a GREAT product you can endue all of the above.

The Van's product fulfills ever promise, every design criteria, and is built with integrity. All you spam can and plastic airplane buffs can see what happens after [racist comments deleted; S. Buchanan] get through with those fancy airplanes. Wait tip you walk into the Cirrus booth and ask a question [Another deletion...comments like this won't cut it here, read the forum rules; S. Buchanan].

Right ON ....Van..... keep doing it the effective way...

Tyler
 
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marketing!

I saw about 400 Van's sales people all around the Oshkosh airport this past week. I think I sold several myself! There were more sales folks at the Beer Fairy's Social, Home built Dinner, and other places. I talked RVs on the tram, in War Birds, even in the South 40.
People that come to me when I am around the 'Borrowed Horse' RV8, usually get a tour And a sales pitch.
RV's are infectious, I have owned more than one several times.
I think the company guys and girls are great!
If you don't have a RV ,,, Get one!!


PS,, I have a exp 180 hp Super cub too, it first flew April 2004, flown it to Idaho 7 times from Texas. I call it 'Shooter'
 
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Let's get back to the real problem here. Your fiancee doesn't yet share your dream. That's not something that a better display is going to fix. This is a big committment of time and money and a big sales job might have an effect for a week.

You need to investigate this problem further. Do you expect her to help build? You shouldn't. Do you expect her to share your passion? You shouldn't. She's got her own and are you as excited for them or just willing to give her the freedom to chase hers? That is what anybody can reasonably expect of a spouse.

I've seen this hobby chew up marriages. If you guys aren't on the same page, you've got some talking to do. It's not reasonable to expect the Van's people to do it.

As for people who are building not getting questions answered at the tent, I'm curious why you waited until their busiest week of the year to ask it? Why not just pick up the phone before?

I rarely visited the Van's tent in 12 years and on the rare time I did, I didn't find a really "hey how are you? Great to see you" greeting but I didn't need one. Someone told me once it's a laid-back Oregon thing. Don't know. Don't care.

I %be made more friends building an RV-7A than any other endeavor I've ever undertaken. I've got them AND now I've got a great airplane too. What more do you want for your money?
 
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But in my mind that does not warrant the derogatory "Welcome to Moes" comment...

Sorry Chris,
Not meant offensive or derogatory at all, but a bad choice of words I guess (I failed to realize that not everyone would understand the context)...
Moe's is a nationally franchised Mex. food restaurant, where standard operating procedure is that all employees within eye sight of the front door yell "welcome to Moe's" when a customer comes in the door.
My attempt at a small amount of humor (something I should avoid I guess) was obviously lost in the passion of the subject.
 
Since your fiance isn't on VAF and it doesn't sound like either of you has gone out of your way to participate in the community too much , you missed the very opportunity to attain what you claim your fiance wanted: something to light a fire under her to build an RV.

That one's on you guys.

If you need glitzy suites at the Hilton , free flowing booze and a display that's more Cirrus-like, you're probably not going to be able to build an RV.

Anybody CAN build an RV. But not everyone has what it takes to build an RV. There's no shame in looking for something different somewhere else.

With all the options for getting a fire lit under you for RVs that was available to you at Oshkosh, if you didn't come away saying "I've GOT to do this!" ,you should probably look somewhere else.
 
Well obviously I have struck a cord, especially with the frugal folk. First off let me say I respect all of your opinions, your airplanes whatever caliber they may be and the effort you took to even voice your opinion here. Now with that said let me say a few more words. My issues in a more specific way is this:

1. The standoffishness and inability to grab someones attention. This was mentioned by many others in this thread so obviously others are feeling a little lack of love here. It does not have to be Icon or Cirrus but a warm reception is nice. I also am very interested in building a legend cub kit and the booth they had was 2 planes, (current, clean, and well presented) and two very friendly people on folding chairs, one of whom was the owner that welcomed us, answered questions, invited us to the factory and spoke at very long length about it all with us and remembered our names in later days as we stopped back.

2. I understand that the planes they have have been abused and used but they are showing their age both in condition and modernness of panels and avionics, It just doesn't excite or represent the community all that well or the amazing planes many of you build. Heck have one or two that are roped for viewing only that are truly one of a kind builds to show people whats possible. I loved the idea of a vans camp with their vendors, builders etc. I understand the community is huge but EAA is too and the best foot forward just aint there.

3. My girlfriend is a CFII/MEII with a background in new Cessna sales, has over 2000 hours of Corvalis time, and now flies the Citations and Phenom's. She is absolutely in love with the cub notion and is excited to help build it and thought many of the RV's displayed around were awesome but was turned off by the booths ratty appearance and the staff in it. She sells multi million dollar planes to folks that expect a mile, she was looking for a smile and didn't get it.


Dont worry guys, If vans replaced the 20 year old banner that proudly announces their presence at the world greatest gathering i don't think the kit costs would rise to much.

I think, Matt, the discussion should be about the quality of the product rather the display tent.

Perhaps what motivated this thread was the failure of Vans to win over your girl friend who is leaning toward a cub rather than a RV which you would prefer. Would a one on one smiley conversation, a pat on the back and a new flag at the tent have done it? Probably not. :)

Sounds like she has her head on straight and if it's a cub that lights her fire, encourage her to go for it. They are great airplanes, just not quite as "total performance" and great as an RV - like it takes 3 days to get anywhere. If she needs to go anywhere, she can jump in a Cessna jet and blast off. For local flying, there's nothing like a cub with the door open in the summer time.

Be smart, let her do her thing, you do yours. You don't have to sleep with her airplane and she doesn't have to sleep with yours, it is not a big deal.

If you are impressed with the RV concept, go for it and don't get hung up on the lack of a fancy marketing pitch. There's lots of that at OSH, much of it is vapor, and people get hurt by it over and over. You won't get hurt going with an RV.

Vans has an outstanding product and they in fact do like and appreciate their customers. At least that has been my experience.
 
Some of us do have a clue

Some of us do know what is involved in trade shows. The company I work with had over 5 million sf of trade show and retail space in Vegas we developed and used to manage. I know the costs and what it takes. A smile doesn't cost anything.

Back to the first posts thoughts - there are many airplanes to chose from that most of us would be happy to own, build, or fly. I am lucky - my wife likes the 9A I am building. If she didn't, I would build or buy a different one. A good relationship with my wife is much more important than if I flew a RV or a Kitfox.

For the many of you who have only attended a trade show ( and that is exactly what Airventure is) you don't have even a clue. Do you know what a booth space cost no.... Try thousands...what housing food costs are no? more thousands...transportation of booth and product...no try tens of thousands. The endurance it takes to put up with the crowds who are tire kickers and nay sayers. Try infinite patience especially for a week.

You all should have to work that tent 10 hours a day for 5 days. and have to pay the costs of displaying. Busy trade shows are fun to work and time goes by fast and when you have a GREAT product you can endue all of the above.
 
For all of those complaining about "customer service" at the Vans tent working the booth, any booth, for 10 days and see how customer friendly you are to people asking stupid questions just to be recognized. ;)

I have always found the people at Vans tent to be professional and courteous, and most of all human! AV is hard work! Give them a break, call when the show is over! ;)
 
Van's Change

Change costs MONEY! If it ain't broke, don't fix it! VANS produces the best, economical, efficient aircraft and also the most kits on the planet! I don't need to see an expensive marketing display or a false " Hi, how are you doing" greeting when I visit their displays. They are busy answering questions and selling product! Leave them focus on that and not the BS that a few people seem to need!!! Sometimes the best food comes from the greasy diner, in VANS case, the best kits from an informal setting! Don't change a thing!!!!
 
test drive

This is an interesting exchange. We are an opinionated bunch.
I have one recommendation.
Discuss the mission. Cub and RV are totally different.
Take a test ride in each model. Go to the factories.
Buy the assembly manuals and see what is involved.
Wives and significant others love travel. It sounds like the OP has access to fly anywhere.

My wife fell in love with me, loves and supports my passions, as I do her(s), so her opinion was paramount to the decision. I am so glad she fell in love with the RV7a slider cuz that was my choice too!:D

As for building, the same applies. She asks me every day if I need help and seems genuinely excited to be in the shop. I know nothing about sewing but offer my assistance and enjoy helping if I can.

That was my motivation for buying a Vans airplane. Wife opinion, mission and performance.

I have no opinion on Vans tent. They greeted me and asked if I had a question. They seemed nice. I didn't go to look at the display planes. Had I been a first timer, maybe it would have been different. I didn't visit the other manufacturers.

I did visit the engine tents and most of the avionics vendors. Grand Rapids was tops for customer service but all treated me pretty well.
Maybe it was the t-shirt I made for the show. "I'm building a Vans RV and buying engine and avionics" (joking).
 
I could be wrong, but I don't think Van's employs anyone purely for marketing at Oshkosh. No hired models to bring in guys (some vendors do that), no glad-handers with big hooks to pull in customers. Everybody at the booth works for Van's in some capacity, and many are engineers, not sales people.

In my experience, most engineers are rather introverted. If you have a technical question, they put it in gear and usually give you more info than you wanted. But to expect a big smile and a hearty welcome is asking a bit much.

Like I said, I could be wrong (I was once :D), but the apparent lack of cheery customer service could just be a reflection of the personalities of those employed by the folks who make the best homebuilt planes in the world.

As they say, "It's not personal, it's business." ;)

And as for wanting even more glitz and glamor ... is that really what people want at Oshkosh? Isn't there already enough flash and sizzle? We homebuilders complain that we are no longer EAA's target market, and have become a minority segment of the EAA family. IMO, more glitz only perpetuates the problem that has overtaken EAA. Kudos to Van's Aircraft for keeping it real.
 
now did you see a suite at the Hilton on the field, The VIP dinners and after parties, the fully catered aviators club and hospitality areas that I did? I doubt it, so I would watch your tone about knowledge of business.

I think I'm starting to see the cultural disconnect here. I can't speak for anyone else, but neither I nor my lovely partner care anything at all about Hilton suites, VIP dinners, after parties, or the catered hospitality areas. We slept in a tent in the North 40 this year and had the time of our lives. Like DanH mentioned, this year we had beer in a backyard as well as donuts pulled straight out of the box on a folding chair, and I enjoyed the heck out of both.

I believe that the majority of the builders here are practical folks. I want to have fun flying without paying an arm and a leg. I want the satisfaction of getting my hands dirty in the garage. It took about 120 seconds flying an RV-7A before I realized that Van's had exactly what I wanted: a reasonably priced airplane that performed. I didn't need to see a shiny display or talk to a smiling company representative to order my tail kit; flying the plane and talking to builders told me everything I needed to know. In fact, the first time I talked to someone at Van's was just before I ordered my wing kit. I've been to OSH twice now and I've never spoken to anyone in the Van's tent. It'd be nice to maybe say hi from a social perspective, but outside of that I don't have any cold, rational need to talk to them.

I get the feeling from your Hilton/VIP/etc references you have a significantly higher expectation of service. There's nothing wrong with that; its your thing and it's not mine. But Van's is a practical business in the same way that I'm a practical builder, and their success shows that their approach is working far better than the glitzier vendors.

To be blunt, Van's is doing just fine without your business, and it looks like they will continue to do so. They don't seem to be having any trouble attracting new customers with their current bare-bones marketing, so why should they change? They're not obligated to you or anyone else. If their marketing doesn't fit your needs, then maybe it's best for you to accept that you're not their market and move on.
 
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The Vans process worked perfectly

Obviously chief you didn't read my post carefully and the her clients expect a mile and we only expected a smile and didn't get it. I also don't want to be a [deleted] here but yes I did see the homebuilt camping and it was very full and certainly impressive, now did you see a suite at the Hilton on the field, The VIP dinners and after parties, the fully catered aviators club and hospitality areas that I did? I doubt it, so I would watch your tone about knowledge of business.

It appears the Vans "process" worked perfectly in this situation.

Duckguy, the Vans tent did you a huge favor. You and your fiance are not suited to be RV builders or members of the Vans family. You are seeking a different culture from what you would find in the RV universe.

Instead of wasting more time contemplating an RV, you are now free to turn your total attention toward aircraft, and aviation communities, that better suit your expectations.

It was nice meeting you, and best wishes for an enjoyable aviation journey regardless of where you land.
 
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I stopped by the Vans tent on Saturday of the closing weekend and everyone I spoke with there was very cheerful and friendly to me. The only thing that was disappointing to me was that they'd sold out completely of Vans Aircraft ball caps... I guess I should've stopped by a day or two earlier ;)
 
A RedNeck goes to OSH

YES, I WAS There! .. and one of the 1st things I did (Wednesday late afternoon after noon arrival ) was head to the Van Tent. It was busy and I was helped. I told Gary?? I was already a builder and he did the best he could to answer my questions while attempting to keep others from climbing all over the aircraft! Considering, I think he did a pretty good job. Went in the tent and purchased a hat for the wife and shirt for my daughter (both with me!) and the gratitude from the staff poured over the counter. Heck, they even stuffed extra stuff into the bag for FREE! No real glitz but good folks selling a great product.
 
This thread is incredible. The group has not only steadfastly defended Vans honor with the blind fervor reminiscent of a religious cult, you are willing to run off a potential customer while doing it...

All because someone made the mistake of suggesting Van could do better in the marketing department.

I happen to agree. I met the Vans gang just once a few years ago, and guess what; I found them rude and arrogant.

I can't help but wonder how things would turn out if Van comes to the show with a new and improved presentation next year - I imagine most of you would flip 180 degrees and Van would be lauded as a marketing genius.
 
1. Aluminium allergy.
2. Fear of clecos.
3. Irrational dislike of peeling plastic off of surfaces.

Any one of those will sound better than "I didn't build an RV because their OSH booth was lame city".

It was a big budget year too, what with the new tent sign...:D
 
Holy Cow! Lighten up folks! I love the product (built an RV-12) but a bit of gentle criticism about the booth presence shouldn't result in return artillery fire! The 2 times I went to the Vans booth before I started on The -12 I also felt a bit ignored. Not due to fighting a crowd for attention either! Yes, we engineers are somewhat introverted but that applies to both the people working at the booth as well as the people that are potential customers visiting! I found going to the presentation (at OSH) was more informative than the booth experience.

Not one person in this thread offering criticism said that what they wanted was glamour, glitz, or anything "more expensive!" Just somewhat of an attitude adjustment, and a bit of a different "experience". It costs a LOT of money to do a booth at OSH. Make the most of that for maximum return. Some regularly scheduled "getting started" basic info presentations. All that takes is a row of folding chairs! Maybe one titled "WIVES - MAKING THE MOST OF THIS OBSESSION" or something like that - a lighter side. Extol the welcoming Vans community. Mention the VAF and the huge number of detailed builder blogs (which is actually how I made my decision.). Not everyone considering building an RV has access to Oregon - or even to a local EAA chapter or fellow RV builder.

Information, presented positively and confidently, is powerful. The potential customer does not necessarily know what to "ask." This is not about a bigger booth, models, or anything like that. The primary reason for the booth is not to be a gathering point for existing customers, it is to generate new business. Focus on meeting that need and doing the things that will achieve that result. Make use of the fact that experienced builders gather there! A signuo sheet with cell numbers could match up people who want to build an RV-X with people who have one there and at happy to discuss the experience.

Some brainstorming would generate dozens of ideas - that don't cost ANYTHING more than the existing booth presence!!! We all want Vans to be successful and the community to expand. I am astounded at the defensive and derisive reaction in this thread to some slight criticism clearly meant to generate improvement, not just to be snarky and NOT made by people that do not like the product! All this stuff about Cirrus et. al. is an irrelevant straw man.

When you work a booth (and I have done that at engineering trade shows) it is not necessarily a pleasant experience. To do it well a technical type may have to leave their comfort zone, tired or not. I just had to learn to deal with it, because it's my job for that event. Drink some coffee, put on a smile, and be outgoing - through clenched teeth if necessary!

Vans does LOTS OF THINGS EXACTLY RIGHT! I don't think that the booth experience is one of them. And in saying that I would not appreciate being told I am unsuited to be in this community! (And also, I have occasionally posted something I immediately wished I had not - usually on that cosmic waste of time known as Linked-In!)

Sorry to ramble. Bill H. N412BR "Sweetie" RV-12, Sport Aviation Magazine article Nov 2012 and **** proud of it !
 
And don't forget folks, RVs matters in general are presented in the AV and SNF forums such as "RV12......", "RV fiberglass....", "So you want to build an RV....", "Side by side RVs", etc. Not all are presented by Vans but are RV specific and a great place to ask question and meet people away from the hectic, stuffy, "rude" Vans tent.
 
My take; from a fellow family member!

I have a somewhat unique take on this whole discussion.

You see, I had the experience of having a newly minted RV9A damaged at a certain tornado event not 3 months after coming out of the paint shop. SnF 2011 will forever be tattooed on my brain as one of the most depressing events of my life. To come out to the airfield after the storm and see my beloved plane slammed against another with damage to its wing that was not going to be trivial to repair was just about too much. But one of the things that showed me I was a part of a family happened during that terrible tornado. After spending a few hours attempting to get repairs started I had a personal visit from Van, Ken Kruger and Jay Pratt. Actually it was a personal visit they made to each one of us RV owners who had sustained damage. They were walking around discussing with each of us owners the damage we had each sustained. They spent as much time as needed looking over my airplane and evaluating the extent of the damage and what needed to be done to repair it. I did not see any other kit manufacturer doing this at all. Perhaps they were but I did not see them out and about the way Van was. To add to their support, Van announced to the world that they would provide replacement materials and parts at a cut rate price drastically below their cost to any of us owners with damaged planes from that tornado. They went far beyond what was ever expected of them to help us out. I will be forever grateful for their attitude and action during that time.

Truthfully, I had some similar thoughts that the OP had prior to my incident with the 2011 SnF tornado when I would go to the Van tent. I saw some of the behavior being discussed in this thread. However, I think most of that can be chalked up to the long hours of manning those booths in hot and tiring conditions. On the other hand though, I have also had one of their engineers walk with me over to the ECi booth at SnF several years ago when I was building to discuss the cowling requirements I would need in order to successfully mount a non-standard IO-340 with forward facing cold air induction on a 9A that he clearly did not think would fit. Even so, he was willing to spend a few minutes out of his busy day at that show to iron out some details about a build he had no involvement with other than the fact I was building one of their kits.

I think it important to recognize that these folks, no matter how much they may be exposed in the spot light of attention at a trade show, are still very much normal human beings like everyone else. As others have stated: Maybe if you were to man their position for a day you may come to have a different understanding of what it takes to deal with these shows.

I agree there could possibly be some additional or different marketing techniques that could be added or altered. Perhaps they will do so in the future. It is my belief though that, at present, they see their product as a self-selling proposition. There are so many unpaid salesmen, as Jay has mentioned, that they do not need a lot of bells and whistles at their booth to make a sale.

To the OP, hope you are able to get what it is you are looking for in a future project. If it is a Cub, you will have a blast. If it is an RV, you will have a blast. If it is anything else, you will have a blast. It is for you to decide and you to achieve. And, quite frankly, your accomplishment in building an airplane, no matter what type it is, will ultimately be what will make it a blast.

Live Long and Prosper!
 
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Volunteers?

My thoughts...I would think it a pleasure to talk to prospective builders about building an RV. Many who have participated in this thread already do at the drop of a hat, and proudly wear the logo. I would also think it an honor to volunteer a couple of hours per AV or SNF at the tent to help answer questions to someone interested. Thanking the staff with a hello and a hand shake for a great product is great - helping with an insider's look may be gold, both for the prospect and for Vans.

Besides, two hours at the tent would probably provide enough good/bad/ugly stories to last the rest of the week. Of course while volunteering, someone is probably changing a baby on your horizontal stabilizer (oops - wrong thread).
 
Wow

I too, cannot believe some of the responses I am reading here here. The OP offered some constructive criticism on how Vans might improve marketing, mainly to spouses of the female persuasion, was pretty well attacked from all sides, and now we even have a forum moderator telling them to go elsewhere, they wouldn't be welcome in the "Van's family". Really? I never realized joining a new "family", or anyone else's approval whatsoever was a requirement for kit plane ownership. I sure as heck did not choose my RV because I wanted to be part of a group, though I don't mind hanging out with friendly pilots who share my interests. I chose it because it fit's my mission profile more perfectly than any other plane on the market. I don't suppose I will be welcome in the "family" after these remarks, but I'm keeping the plane.:rolleyes:

Lighten up is right. Van's doesn't need any of us defending their business practices, they are the biggest and most successful kit aircraft company around, I bet they can take it!

Or leave it as they choose. Maybe they have enough business they don't care. But if they are anything like most successful people I know, they are never satisfied with "business as usual" , and are always looking for ways to improve things. So I bet they don't mind a little constructive criticism nearly as much as some of you folks seem to.

I've been by the Van's booth at S&F several times, as a current builder, and can attest to some of the complaints myself, particularly being completely ignored, even when some of those working there were free. Whether or not they need to spend more money presenting a product that obviously sells itself pretty well is completely up to Van's. However, if I worked with or for Van's, I would certainly pay attention to any complaints about rude behavior, or suggestions about how to improve initial customer relations. That costs absolutely nothing, except a little effort. As someone who, by myself, has displayed my hand made musical instruments at three or four day long shows, I can certainly sympathize with being tired at the end of a show, answering the same questions hundreds of times, all while listening to the cacophony of several instruments being played at various other displays as well as mine all day long. I too, have a good product and a waiting list of customers, and I don't spend a lot of money for a fancy display as some other builders do, but I certainly remain as personable and friendly as I possibly can, and I try to keep an eye out for other potential customers in the background while I chat with current ones. And if I found I could not keep up with the crowd, or found myself too tired and cranky, I would spend the money, not for fancy trappings, but to hire people to help me.
 
I have been watching and reading the various opinions expressed by folks about how we, as Van's employees, conduct ourselves at the various venues we attend.

First, let me say that if anyone has ever been offended, felt unwelcome or in any way been put off by us out-front folks, we do sincerely apologize. Our intent has always been to be friendly and outgoing, being the informational gateway to the world of RVs.

At the smaller shows we attend, it is easier to approach someone who is meandering around our display because there are fewer people to attend to. At the larger ones like Oshkosh and Sun & Fun, our attention generally gets centered on those who engage us. There were countless times this past week where I approached some folks to see if I could help them. Just like the other Van's representatives. Yes, there are a number of people who require that any interaction be initiated by us. It is unfortunate that we can't always recognize this because there are so many "looky-loos" who wander thru and pause with only a casual or even non-existent interest. Separating the two types is difficult at best. Just like we want to talk to anyone and everyone who is even mildly interested, we want to leave those who are not interested alone, just like they would prefer. Personally, I like exploring the booths and displays on my own. If I have a question, I'll ask. Other than that, I'd rather be left alone.

Glitz may get your attention, but honest information about a top notch product makes the sale. As far as marketing goes, I think the largest investment Van's has made over the past few years is me. My title is East Coast Representative. Not East Coast Salesman. I dare say the word salesman is not to be found in the job description of any employee at Van's. We don't want to push anyone into an RV. Our sole purpose at shows is to open the door and guide you into the world of RVs. Let you see for yourself what a wonderful and fulfilling adventure this phenomena can be.

We all truly love what we do at Van's and at the shows. We try our best to be all things to all people. But we are people ourselves.
 
Other than signage and there wasn't a suite somewhere with free booze, it's not clear what the complaint is except that Van's isn't Cirrus. I'm not aware that anyone said they were rude at the tent. I'm not aware that any questions weren't answered. I'm not aware that anyone has provided any exact transcription of any exchange with the Van's tent.

So what exactly is the problem that's got people worked up?

What is it you're looking for exactly?
 
You must be joking...

Some of you guys are just plain nuts. The guy was just offering constructive criticism. In my business, I welcome genuine advice. The bulk of the responses belittled the guy, and now the moderator told him to take a hike. Unbelievable.

Nice job. Way to go. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.
 
I think part of having discussions like this in a rather anonymous forum is that much intent, emotion or syntax gets lost in the words. I can understand the OP's original questions and indeed I've seen some good suggestions on these pages. I think some of the defensiveness comes from the wording of some posts. Trying to prove who has a bigger 'wallet' will not win you a ton of friends in the RV crowd or homebuilt crowd as a whole; many who struggle just to financially make it to the show to begin with. I think as a whole nobody berates success, but they generally are offended if it's thrown at them as a taunt of sorts.

Part of the other defensiveness comes from those who personally know the folks in the Van's booth and how unbelievably hard they work. Also how much they truly and sincerely do care about their customers (both present, past and future). OSH is never a perfect representation for any of us there and comparing it to working any other traditional type of trade show is extremely difficult...I've worked many in a bunch of different fields and OSH is an entirely different animal. I can defend that portion of it because I know those folks and I know what a deeply embedded culture they have which is truly centered around customers. I know everyone tries their best, and all of us try to make all of the people happy all of the time, but the fact is that we end up only making some of the people happy all of the time....or all of the people happy some of the time! :)

That said, all of us in business seem to always have room to improve. I think there has been some constructive suggestions (I've been taking notes myself to maybe steal some of those ideas), and you can be absolutely 100% certain that Van's reads these posts. If they are written incorrectly and don't provide some definitive suggestions then they (like others) will likely ignore it.

In discussions like this I like to really look at both sides, because there usually is value at least in some of it. I'm guessing the OP either truly was looking for assistance in his endeavor and perhaps the communication format just didn't work out as intended....or an RV/homebuilding just isn't for him. It's hard to tell from a few typed words (perhaps poorly chosen I don't know - but I do know we've all done that).

Just my 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein
 
This Thread

Nice post from Stein (as usual)..but my vote for favorite post on this topic is #76 from BillH....very well said, Mr. Bill.
 
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I wonder if the guy has arranged a ride for his soon-to-be wife in an RV? That wasn't made clear in the original message. The gentleman's stated desire was to light a fire in his spouse for the project he wants to build.

I think he's going about doing that all wrong and there are hundreds of ways to do it better and preserve a marriage in the process.

And, yeah, I probably am nuts, but I built an RV, hardly ever went to the Van's tent at Oshkosh (my wife went and bought the VHS tape) and we'll be celebrating our 32nd year of bliss in October. So maybe the best way to get spousal support for a project is simply to ask builders who have had it.
 
Sorry Chris,
Not meant offensive or derogatory at all, but a bad choice of words I guess (I failed to realize that not everyone would understand the context)...
Moe's is a nationally franchised Mex. food restaurant, where standard operating procedure is that all employees within eye sight of the front door yell "welcome to Moe's" when a customer comes in the door.
My attempt at a small amount of humor (something I should avoid I guess) was obviously lost in the passion of the subject.

Scott, I now understand the context and intent of your comment. I apologize for taking it the wrong way. I find that there is a Moe's in Ocala, FL, 30 miles from where I live. Next time I am in Ocala I will give them a try, as I like Mexican food very much, but have never been to one of their restaurants.

Respectfully,
 
I don't think you need to take any notes, I have always been treated like a customer every year when I stop by your booth, keep up the good work..

I think part of having discussions like this in a rather anonymous forum is that much intent, emotion or syntax gets lost in the words. I can understand the OP's original questions and indeed I've seen some good suggestions on these pages. I think some of the defensiveness comes from the wording of some posts. Trying to prove who has a bigger 'wallet' will not win you a ton of friends in the RV crowd or homebuilt crowd as a whole; many who struggle just to financially make it to the show to begin with. I think as a whole nobody berates success, but they generally are offended if it's thrown at them as a taunt of sorts.

Part of the other defensiveness comes from those who personally know the folks in the Van's booth and how unbelievably hard they work. Also how much they truly and sincerely do care about their customers (both present, past and future). OSH is never a perfect representation for any of us there and comparing it to working any other traditional type of trade show is extremely difficult...I've worked many in a bunch of different fields and OSH is an entirely different animal. I can defend that portion of it because I know those folks and I know what a deeply embedded culture they have which is truly centered around customers. I know everyone tries their best, and all of us try to make all of the people happy all of the time, but the fact is that we end up only making some of the people happy all of the time....or all of the people happy some of the time! :)

That said, all of us in business seem to always have room to improve. I think there has been some constructive suggestions (I've been taking notes myself to maybe steal some of those ideas), and you can be absolutely 100% certain that Van's reads these posts. If they are written incorrectly and don't provide some definitive suggestions then they (like others) will likely ignore it.

In discussions like this I like to really look at both sides, because there usually is value at least in some of it. I'm guessing the OP either truly was looking for assistance in his endeavor and perhaps the communication format just didn't work out as intended....or an RV/homebuilding just isn't for him. It's hard to tell from a few typed words (perhaps poorly chosen I don't know - but I do know we've all done that).

Just my 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein
 
4

Funny, I have bought 4 RV Kits from Vans Aircraft. Starting July 1995.
When I walk through Vans tent, or Factory! no one notices me? They make eye contact, oh, him again, I know they are busy and and will be there after 5 for happy hour.
Wish I lived closer, to Vans,,, I would be a regular on their breakfast flights.
 
Wow...I go to the airport for the afternoon and come back to find the torches have been lit and the pitchforks sharpened!

Earlier today I made the following post:

It appears the Vans "process" worked perfectly in this situation.

Duckguy, the Vans tent did you a huge favor. You and your fiance are not suited to be RV builders or members of the Vans family. You are seeking a different culture from what you would find in the RV universe.

Instead of wasting more time contemplating an RV, you are now free to turn your total attention toward aircraft, and aviation communities, that better suit your expectations.

It was nice meeting you, and best wishes for an enjoyable aviation journey regardless of where you land.

I intended this post to provoke discussion and it did. If you disagreed with my post, that is fine and I respect your opinion. But for the few of you who misrepresented my words, I have to call a foul. This thread is not about me but I need to respond to some mischaracterizations of what I wrote.

We often think RV aircraft are built with money, skill, fancy tools, and comfy workshops. But in reality the key ingredient to them becomimg wonderful flying machines is passion. Those of us who have built RVs realize the process has to become a high priority in our lives that is supported by our family partners.

My response to Matt (duckguy) was prompted by what I saw in his post as a lack of passion, especially by his fiance, that would support the completion of an RV. Too many of us have seen what can happen when the family doesn't support a project. His comments suggested to me that they were looking at a different set of parameters for choosing the building community they might consider being a part of.

I suspect their decision had already been made when he posted (even if he didn't realize it yet! ;) ), and I wished them success in whatever route they chose. If Matt wishes to correct my perceptions I will eagerly accept his reply.

Contrary to what some listers have posted, I did not tell Matt and his fiance that they were not welcome in the RV community, did not tell them to take a hike, and did not say they were unsuited to build an airplane. Read carefully what I wrote, not what you think was written. Proper context also requires having read all of Matt's posts.

Over the past 15 years of visible involvement in the RV community, I have advised and encouraged a lot of folks about building and completing their projects. But I have also talked a few out of becoming RV builders when I saw they were not "suited" for the task due to family complications, personality traits, budget, or discomfort with leaving the certificated world.

As I stated in my post, I hope Matt and his fiance find what they are seeking. It may eventually turn out to be an RV but based on what I read in his post, I still think they need to continue to research their options. We all want them to be successful builders or owners of their personal aircraft regardless of the brand.
 
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And your'e the one...

I'll choose rock-solid engineering and honest business sense over flash and glossy literature any day. The vast majority of people that would take on such a project are naturally pragmatic and Van's 'marketing' strategy seems to suit the market well.

I sort of find it charming that in spite of Van's Aircraft relatively huge success they haven't changed their core principles.

Plus, why would Van change a darn thing about his business approach? He's the market leader by a long shot.

To blame for me building my 7, and I would not trade the time I owned her for anything,
Thanks Jamie
 
I stopped by the Van?s tent after this tread was started and the Van?s team was both hurt and amused the comments contained within it.

As mentioned before, the team at Van?s is full of engineers, builders, etc., not sales people. Maybe because of this, they don?t come off as ?polished? as some potential customers would expect when preparing to drop some major coin in the Van?s cash register.

That said, I stood back and watched potential customers ignore the signs requesting people to ask for assistance before climbing in the aircraft. Watching one guy try to board the RV-12 from behind the wing was a bit amusing and concerning. In short, the Van?s team was trying to answer every question and at the same time assist people climbing in and out of the aircraft. Remember, those same people are flying these planes home and any damage may mean they are stuck in OSH after the party ends.

In other words, cut them some slack. They are there to answer questions, not ?sell? you a kit. They are smart enough to know that deciding to build a plane is a huge endeavor and they cannot and should not sell a kit to someone who is not ready for such a major undertaking. IM HO, they have a vested interest in selling the kits to people who will complete them. They aren?t really in the business of just selling tail kits.
 
Great Job Van's

Stein, both your posts are dead on with my comments towards this subject.

I think some get confused on what Van's sells and what their strategy is. Van's does not compete with Cirrus and Cessna. They sell a kit that can be customized to the customers needs. And not just any kit, the most popular kit in the world. When the history books are written about the reciprocating engine driven aeroplane, it will most likely be the most sold kit ever!

Strategy can be defined in 3 ways:
1. What does our customer value?
2. What are we going to say no to?
3. What are we going to be best at?

Van's has customers that value a safe kit (I fly with my two daughters all over our country because of the trust I have in this kit), with a sporty "fun" feel, that is efficient and affordable to fly, that can be built by the average person at a competitive cost. (1/6 - 1/7 the cost of a Cirrus SR22 GTS $724,900:eek:- Very competitive)

Think of all the things they have to say no to. How many people have asked them for a certified version of every model? Different engine support?
Does it jeopardize safety? Does it add cost with no performance increase? I think Van's does a great job holding to their strategy.

Van's is the product leader in the kit built market. Van's is the best at selling kit aircraft that have that "RV" feel, which is a fun flying plane. Like they say, "It flies the way a plane should fly". Even when they branched out to a 2-seat side by side, 4-seat, LSA, they have always delivered the best flying and complete kit in its class. Their culture and systems are designed over the past 30+ years to deliver the results they get. It would be interesting to see how their sales process has evolved over the past 30 years. How did Van sell the RV-3 and RV-4? I think we would all be surprised by the evolution and improvements in all their systems.

Sure some are offended by this thread because we have a more personal relationship with them and know what a great job they do.

So can they improve? Of course. Everyone can improve and become better at what they do? Somehow I was able to understand that Van's delivered on all of my values I listed above without talking to them once.
I would bet this is their experience as well and they may even have data on this.
As the RV community grows and the 8000+ sales force spreads the word, the demographics and values of the new potential customers may be changing. Maybe Van's will have a Platinum RV-10 that comes with a free suite at the Hilton, caviar, and an instrument panel that smells of rich mahogany next year at Oshkosh. ;) I had to throw that Anchorman quote in there. They would do that because that is what they may think the customer values.

I don't think anyone at Van's would turn down comments but be polite, respectful and genuine. And remember, your talking about the most successful GA company this century! (so far)
 
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I have been biting my tongue on this one for the last three days. I have honestly tried not to respond, but it has come to the point where I can?t keep quiet any longer.

My first experience with Van?s, in person, was also my first trip to OSH. I didn?t go to their tent looking for a glitzy sales pitch or looking to be sold on an RV, nor to ask them for a free demo ride. By the time I went to their tent, I already knew I wanted to build an RV-8. I just wanted to know how to go about buying a kit.

I arrived in the middle of the week and after looking at several RV?s on the grounds and talking to a few owners, I went over to talk to Van?s. I am somewhat an introvert so I waited until the crowd died down before I approached them. In fact, I had to make three different trips to the tent before I was able to get to the counter. When I walked up to the counter, there was no other customer anywhere in the tent. There were four people behind the counter, two at the left end and two at the right end who I recognized as very senior members of Van?s staff by having seen their pictures in the RVator. Both pairs of people were having conversations among themselves. I walked up to the counter, closer to the senior members, but still somewhat between the two pairs. As I was walking toward the counter, the two guys on the right end made eye contact with me then went back to their conversation. I stood at the counter, waiting for them to finish thinking they?ll get to me in a minute. After what seemed like a surprising amount of time, they stopped talking to each other and turned around and just looked at me with a straight face. No smile, no ?Hi, how are you?? or ?Can I help you??, nothing. So I said, ?Hi, can I ask you a question?? The response I got was ?Go ahead.? So I introduced myself and said I wanted to build an RV-8, and how do I go about ordering a Kit? I was told I needed to order a preview plans set and was given a package with some forms to fill out to send back in. I said ?Thank-you? and one of them said ?You?re welcome?. I thought this was kind of strange since I just basically told them I would like to give them tens of thousands of my hard earned dollars and I?m the one thanking them??

I have called Van?s tech support a few times and also sent an email to them on occasion. My emails have always been answered promptly and answered my questions. The best phone support I?ve gotten was from Tom Green. He always seemed very nice and always willing to help. I made it a point to say Hi to him and thank him whenever I saw him at OSH or SNF? There is another guy that works the show for Van?s that I have seen the past couple of years. I do not know his name, but he is a tall guy with a closely trimmed beard. He has also been very nice to deal with. I always look for him when I am at the show and have a question.

Fast forward to a later date when I received my fuselage kit. In the shipment was a couple of items I did not order and didn?t recognize. They also were not on my packing list anywhere. I had a question I wanted to ask tech support anyway, so I thought I would call, ask the question and at the same time tell them they sent me something I did not order. I called at the designated tech support time and got an individual who did not seem to want to answer the phone that day. Before I ever got to my question, I mentioned I was planning to use Grove gear on my plane. At this point, you would have thought I was asking his permission to date his underage daughter or something. He went into a tirade about people making modifications to their planes and how they were not RV?s anymore. This went on for a couple of minutes and I just sat there and took it. When it was over, I asked him what he wanted me to do with the parts. He said he would transfer me to sales for them to take care of it. No thank you from him for calling about the parts or anything. I haven?t called tech support since.

When the person in sales answered, he was very nice and appreciative of me calling about them.

I have dealt with a lot of different vendors over the course of this build, some of whom have never made a dime off of me, and nowhere else have I ever experienced the kind of condescending attitude that I have gotten from a few of the people at Van?s.
 
Great insight

Well said Scott.....I like the confidence you have and give us, to feel safe with your family on board of these awesome aircrafts.

Quick story related to Cirrus( not to knock Cirrus because they are first class aircraft as well...just not for everyone) We were about to buy a Cirrus two years ago, flew several, did prebuy, deposit ect......prebuy came back as a few little things needed....$5800 worth of work which was all of few worn control bushings, landing light, tail strike protector and few other minor things....we took step back and went back to RV10....did factory tour and demo flight.....about 500 feet down runway on lift off the decision was made what we were going to buy, we just had to build our dream aircraft. The experience of the the Vans tour and them spending the time with us to feel comfortable with the decision, there was no sales pitch needed. I also underestimated how much I would enjoy the build and how great it is to have the family out in the shop night after night even if they just sitting on a chair watching. This experience will change our life and bond our family and you cannot buy that anywhere....
Even if our aircraft never flies, I personally have grown as a person and bonded with family to far reward the cost of the kit. That said, We hope to have our 10 to paint in September.

The experience of Vans family, the relationships we build, and the satisfaction of progress is unexplainable till you experience them.
 
Bill S. - your post - wow.
Awhile back a new local family-run diner opened up. (Very rural area.) Went a couple of times. Pretty poor service. Orders not right. Drinks left empty. Waited on by a teenage son who was absolutely clear in his demeanor that he wanted to be ANYWHERE else. Other family kids roaming around behind the counter, indicating a very non-businesslike non-serious attitude. When paying at the register the (I think) owner asked "how was everything?" "Oh, just fine," as we walked out never to return.

Why is that? And why would most of us, frankly, do the exact same thing? Because we don't want to be critical unless REALLLLLLY pushed. If I had a small business I would kill for frank feedback, particularly if it was critical - because it is so rare. They say for every one customer that actually complains, there are dozens that feel the same but say nothing.

Honest criticism from people that love your products is highly valuable. The customer may not always be right but they are always the customer. I too have received excellent customer service and technical support from Vans in my RV-12 build - on issues ranging from the dumbest newbie questions to pointing out a Skyview error that resulted in plans revisions and wiring harness changes. Excellent response in those areas.

I believe the motivations behind the criticisms are pure and the issue is both real and significant. No one likes to be criticized but great improvements can come from it if faced squarely and with some swallowed pride and abandoned excuses. This is difficult in our realm because there is no greater concentration of ego per square foot than a gathering of pilots, (and I include surgeons).

Given the quality of the products, I have wondered why Vans market share isn't even higher. This could be a reason.
 
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Last year I arrived at the latter part of Osh and they didn't have any decent swag left and the crowds were insufferable. I could hardly get in a question.
This year I was at the Vans tent at the crack of Sunday morning before anyone was around. Greeted each Vans person that arrived, hung around until the goodies were displayed and kindly asked if I could make some purchases.
Then on Monday morning Van arrived.. I'd never met him before but as he stepped out of the mini-van I jabbed my hand out, introduced myself, told him I had a -9A and thanked him for designing such a wonderful airplane.
I was all agog and felt like I was in high school asking a pretty girl out on a date. anyway...
That, and the people I met, really made the trip.
 
...He went into a tirade about people making modifications to their planes and how they were not RV?s anymore. This went on for a couple of minutes and I just sat there and took it. When it was over, I asked him what he wanted me to do with the parts. He said he would transfer me to sales for them to take care of it. No thank you from him for calling about the parts or anything. I haven?t called tech support since....

Interesting, as I had a similar experience a few years ago at Copperstate when the -10 was still fairly new. I won't bore you with the details, but don't even discuss the possibility of a taildragger -10 within earshot of a Vans employee! That little exchange left a sour and lasting impression on me and a buddy.

Rule #1 in business: Never, ever berate or argue with your customers in public!
 
Vans tent

I ordered my 8 kit without ever talking to a Vans factory rep at an airshow . I compared all the planes that I was interested in ,and based my choice on how much a completed airframe was going to cost me . Value vs Dollar. No kit plane manufacturer comes close to value and completeness of an RV .
If you want to be schmoozed and talk to a bunch of sales people and watch a prototype fly on a flat sceen tv check out Icon Aircraft . They have the biggest fanciest tent , carpet , friendly sales people , ready to take a deposit , on a Plane that will never make it to market .
Guess you could sit at home thumbing thru the glossy brochure , thinking how nice you were greeted at their tent compared to Vans .
I kind of like the lack of fluff at Vans tent , maybe true builders see thru the fluff , might be why they have such a high completion rate , builders not dreamers .
 
Dear Duckguy,
A word(s) of advice. Next time you post try a less controversial topic such as:
1. Are P-51 paint schemes really stupid.
2. What is better: slider or tilt up canopy.
3. Tail wheel aircraft should be banned: true or false.
4. Side-by-side seating is indicative of an insecure personality.
5. I'm installing my Lycoming IO-720 in my RV3 and I need some advice.

But to your experience at Oshkosh you can?t extrapolate the Van?s booth contact to the Van's product and product support. They are 180 out. Van?s doesn?t do the Booth Babe, back slapping, hail fellow; well met routine. Booth Babes will tell you anything to make a sale. You?ll be better informed to find out what the customers think and this Forum is a good place to start. Go buy your RV8 emp kit and get on with it.
 
Might be a good time to remind the more sensitive members that just because some of us find Vans marketing and "bedside manner" a little lacking does NOT mean he offers a bad product, his employees club baby seals for entertainment, or that he needs to offer golf memberships at an exclusive country club. It simply means that with very little or zero financial investment, there could be a "better" face for the company.

Yes, he has a very successful product - but imagine how much better it could be with a little more effort!

And BTW Don, I'm considering your #5! (but I'm going to use a -4... A -3 would just be silly.)
 
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