VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.

  #21  
Old 01-02-2022, 05:50 PM
DanH's Avatar
DanH DanH is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 08A
Posts: 10,757
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjdecker View Post
...I think Dan got confused --
Always possible!
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 SS
Barrett IO-390
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-02-2022, 06:36 PM
rocketbob's Avatar
rocketbob rocketbob is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 8I3
Posts: 3,836
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by propjoe View Post
All grease will separate under the force of a normal lever and Pistol type grease gun. Its the spring.
I've had numerous unused tubes of Aeroshell dry out and leak oil on the shelf.

A car can go 200K miles typically on a set of wheel bearings never requiring maintenance with a tiny amount of grease. Why does something that only moves 1/8" with 1/2" bearing balls require regreasing every annual?
__________________

Please don't PM me! Email only!

Bob Japundza CFII A&PIA
N9187P PA-24-260B Comanche, flying
N678X F1 Rocket, under const.
N244BJ RV-6 "victim of SNF tornado" 1200+ hrs, rebuilding
N8155F C150 flying
N7925P PA-24-250 Comanche, restoring
Not a thing I own is stock.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-02-2022, 07:59 PM
propjoe propjoe is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Rolling Meadows
Posts: 57
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketbob View Post
Why does something that only moves 1/8" with 1/2" bearing balls require regreasing every annual?
Centrifical force. A propeller is in essence a centrafuge. For the same reason a propeller gets sludge in it from the fuel, that ends up in the oil. That same oil is used to change pitch, in the propeller, that gets centruged out in the form of sludge in the prop.
Pic for ya'
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20210308_162431(1).jpg
Views:	159
Size:	181.0 KB
ID:	20451  
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-02-2022, 08:10 PM
propjoe propjoe is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Rolling Meadows
Posts: 57
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketbob View Post
Correct. I would not use Aeroshell #5 on my mower let alone a certified aircraft. It is an old clay grease formulation that does not perform well.

I have a copy of the service manual that is only available to authorized shops and have torn down many of these props and put them back together for experimentals or disassembled them for transport. I also have a source for parts that are only available to authorized prop shops. I also can read. The last propeller I disassembled was November 2021.

I do many owner-assist annuals and condition inspections. I have on several occasions observed Hartzells start spitting grease after servicing them. The path of grease between the zerks WILL NOT flush all grease out. Packing the cavity where the grease resides simply can force separated oil past the teflons and blade oring.
Do you have your pirated tech data in an electronic format? Try "Ctrl" "F" and tell me any where it tells you to "flush" out grease of a blade retention bearing in a Hartzell compact propeller. There is a specific procedure set forth by Hartzell. I think you are wrong for even posting such rubbish to "flush" grease. Here is what happens when to try to "flush". You fill the hub up with grease. Then the prop leaks and you blame the design and the tech data? I tried to search "Purge" on your behalf and I posted what Hartzell says about that as well.
Have a nice evening.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20210308_165404(1).jpg
Views:	229
Size:	224.4 KB
ID:	20452  Click image for larger version

Name:	image(39).png
Views:	265
Size:	59.4 KB
ID:	20453  
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-02-2022, 10:14 PM
rocketbob's Avatar
rocketbob rocketbob is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 8I3
Posts: 3,836
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by propjoe View Post
Do you have your pirated tech data in an electronic format? Try "Ctrl" "F" and tell me any where it tells you to "flush" out grease of a blade retention bearing in a Hartzell compact propeller. There is a specific procedure set forth by Hartzell. I think you are wrong for even posting such rubbish to "flush" grease. Here is what happens when to try to "flush". You fill the hub up with grease. Then the prop leaks and you blame the design and the tech data? I tried to search "Purge" on your behalf and I posted what Hartzell says about that as well.
Have a nice evening.
I have a paper manual in an original 3-ring Hartzell binder that I purchased from Hartzell. Its a little strange for someone to accuse someone of using "pirated" tech data, not knowing anything about what data I have or my background.

Perhaps you should reread my statements which I said which agrees 100% with the manual about not being able to purge old grease thru the zerks. I really dont think you understood anything I said.
__________________

Please don't PM me! Email only!

Bob Japundza CFII A&PIA
N9187P PA-24-260B Comanche, flying
N678X F1 Rocket, under const.
N244BJ RV-6 "victim of SNF tornado" 1200+ hrs, rebuilding
N8155F C150 flying
N7925P PA-24-250 Comanche, restoring
Not a thing I own is stock.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-03-2022, 06:44 AM
ShortSnorter ShortSnorter is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: NOLA
Posts: 365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
+1. The shelf life is ridiculously small. I always wonder what the condition is of the grease in the prop.
I wonder if this is a contributing reason why Hartzell discontinued use of Aeroshell and switched to gynco? I had a heck of a time finding gynco when the switch first came out ($50/tube), but it seems available now.
__________________
Ryan
RV-14 In-Progress
Build Site
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-03-2022, 06:55 AM
propjoe propjoe is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Rolling Meadows
Posts: 57
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketbob View Post
I have a paper manual in an original 3-ring Hartzell binder that I purchased from Hartzell. Its a little strange for someone to accuse someone of using "pirated" tech data, not knowing anything about what data I have or my background.

Perhaps you should reread my statements which I said which agrees 100% with the manual about not being able to purge old grease thru the zerks. I really dont think you understood anything I said.
I really do not care, other than you are giving out miss information about greasing, or telling people they should not grease Hartzell propellers. Pitch the three binder and look on the web. Hartzell puts it out there for a reason.

This is the 3rd time I've cut and pasted this whole thing in the last week.
I see people get this one wrong and fill the hub with grease, often, way to often.
Proper way to lubricate a Hartzell "Compact" propeller.
See Hartzell Owners manual 115N, click on the link below and go to page 6-7. All the instruction for prop lubrication, of a Hartzell "Compact" propeller, you need is there on the web for your enjoyment. Please take a look before you start the lubrication of your prop. You can always contact Hartzell. Or feel free to call, email, PM me if you need help in understanding something.
Hartzell 115N link:
https://hartzellprop.com/MANUALS/115N-0000-A.pdf

Here is a really old Hartzell video about props. Lubrication starts at about the 19:00 mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHSWwJzWgRU
I'm gonna go off the deep end a little here and explain.
A propeller is a giant centrifuge that tends to separate grease back into the stuff it is made from. Mainly a waxy type thickener (Usually clay or Lithium) and oil. I like the old Aeroshell #5 that we used for decades in props. It worked well. I do not like #6 that has been the factory prop fill for a while. Over the years I have seen many props with Aeroshell #6 in them that have the grease separate during operation. The blade seals are designed to hold grease, not oil. Then typically the oil from the grease tends to leave the prop (through the blade seals) and leave the waxy thickener behind. So the thickener is not a good lubricant by itself and with little or no oil in the mix tends to make for corroded blade retention bearings ($$$). This is just my personal observation over the years. Hartzell now uses a factory fill with Nyco GN3058 grease, which in theory will be even better than the #6 and hopefully even #5. I'm sure Hartzell has tested this new Nyco grease. I like that they are willing to go to a potentially better grease. Jury is still out on the Nyco as I've not seen a prop come apart yet with the Nyco grease. I do like that the Nyco is an anti corrosion grease we have used on other static propeller applications as an anti corrosive grease at our shop with great success. The USN has even gone to great lengths to come up with a spec. for corrosion inhibiting grease (MIL-PRF- 81322 ) which GN3058 now meets.
When pumping in the grease, poke out the wax thickener that has most likely plugged the opposite zerk. That is the hole that you have removed either the zerk or plug as the case may be. Use a piece of safety wire or something similar.
Insert/apply grease to each Zerk until grease comes out the other side, or until you have pumped approximately 1oz of grease (Approx 6 pumps/strokes on most lever grease guns). If you are unsure of how much 1 oz of grease is, or looks like, pump some out into a shot glass and count the strokes needed for 1oz for your particular grease gun.
Aeroshell #5 and #6 can be intermixed, per Hartzell. You are supposed to placard the aircraft restricting operation below -40F if there is any Aeroshell #5 in the prop. I have to be honest, I've never seen that placard on any aircraft and there are thousands of Harztell props that have been lubricated with Aeroshell #5 over the decades.

The idea of pumping till the grease runs clear can lead to problems on the new hubs with the grease fittings Zerks located along the parting line of the hub. That hole is threaded 1/4 x 28 and there is a stepped feature inside of the hub that the diameter is much smaller than the threaded area you can see from the outside. On the new hubs, they did that for added strength in the area of the blade retention bearing. Because of the small diameter of that hole you may mistakenly pump the hub full of grease un-intentionally in the quest for clean grease to come out of the other side of the hub.
The older hubs had the zerk/fitting right on the bearing in the thinnest part (not good for strength btw) of the hub had that 1/4 x 28 thread all the way through, inside and out. If you don't know or are un-shure of which hub you are dealing with, please follow the instructions given in Hartzell owners manual 115N. You generally can't go wrong with FAA approved tech data.
As someone who has greased several hundreds (possibly even more) of propellers, I think the biggest problem is that people do not realize the hole on the other side, where the grease is supposed to emerge from, is plugged with that waxy build-up of the greases' thickener in that little bore. People just keep a pumping and a pumping, and a pumping, till the center of the hub is filled with grease. Then the prop can become sluggish and at that point it needs to come apart. While filling the prop with the correct grease, once grease starts coming out the other side of the hub, the retention bearing is full of grease. Stop, blade retention bearing is full of grease, you are done. Not that the hub is full of grease, rather, that blade retention bearing is full of grease. If you have to keep pumping more than 1oz you are potentially filling the inside of the hub with grease.

The object/goal is to grease the blade shank retention bearings (1/2" diameter balls and races). The key is not fill the center of the hub with grease, by over-servicing.

Glad I didn't have to type that out again. Feel free to share with whoever will listen.


Let me know if you'd like to hear my background in propellers.
Have a nice day!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-03-2022, 07:06 AM
propjoe propjoe is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Rolling Meadows
Posts: 57
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShortSnorter View Post
I wonder if this is a contributing reason why Hartzell discontinued use of Aeroshell and switched to gynco? I had a heck of a time finding gynco when the switch first came out ($50/tube), but it seems available now.
They were force to change the formulation of many products due to European REACH regulations in 2018. That is why they are not selling many Aeroshell products in Europe.
https://echa.europa.eu/regulations/r...standing-reach
Even regulating grease!!!
https://www.wca-environment.com/appl...ix_effects.pdf

It effects everything, Grease, paint, epoxy, adhesives...
Guess where the replacement Grease/products are made???
Why Europe, of course!
Its really effecting me at work now. There are single source suppliers with certain requirements listed manuals that really has had us scrambling for products that meet specs, then throw in raw material shortages = Perfect storm of shortages.
Then there is this little issue about grease:
https://www.wifr.com/2021/07/21/chem...ease-shortage/
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-03-2022, 07:21 AM
Walt's Avatar
Walt Walt is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 6,674
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rv8ch View Post
Bob, do you have a recommendation? Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketbob View Post
Yes, dont grease. Its pointless. There's no way to force old grease out without complete disassembly. There is so little movement that none of it really matters. I would be willing to bet a Hartzell would work just fine with zero grease.
I'm not so sure that suggesting folks NOT follow the advice of Hartzell is a prudent or responsible one. I'm pretty confident that the folks at Hartzell have a bit more experience in the service history of their products than anyone here on VAF.

In order to avoid 'over greasing' (grease being pushed out past the seals) my suggestion is that both the grease and prop should be warm before adding a few pumps, and do it very slowly, by hand grease gun only and make sure the opposite port if free and clear. I also change the grease every year in my gun so I am always using 'fresh' material.
__________________
Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)

EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 2000+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags, MTV-9 prop
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-03-2022, 07:33 AM
jcarne's Avatar
jcarne jcarne is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Worland, Wyoming
Posts: 2,231
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post
I also change the grease every year in my gun so I am always using 'fresh' material.
Looking like this may be difficult to do now that Aeroshell is out of production due to the fire.
__________________
Jereme Carne
PPL
RV-7A Flying as of 03/2021
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:58 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.