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Cant afford RV-4, whats a good stepping-stone?

T

the4ork

Member
I cant quite afford an RV-4 yet, but I would really like to pick something up in the mean time thats two place, similar (although this seems like a stretch) performance, and I prefer a tailwheel. (never flown a tricycle)

I was thinking I could pick up a Sonerai 2 for about half-price of the RV.

the performance is about half but i think it would be a good stepping stone to get me up in the air.

any thoughts?
 
There are several Thorp T-18's for sale on Barnstormers for between $20K and $25K. They are solid little two place side-by-sides with very good, performance. Probably won't quite keep up with a similarly engined RV-6, but they are very close.

Regards,


Lee...
 
The RV-1 is single seat :p

If your budget is in the 25K and under range, have a look at the Grumman AA-1 (Lynx/Yankee) you might even find one that has the taildragger conversion done. Two seats, more sporty handling than your typical two seat spamcan, and it has a real aircraft engine.

The Thorp, as mentioned above may be a good option as well. There's one out there with an O-360 for 21.5k.

In the plastic plane dept, there's the Long-EZ / VariEze canards.

A fabric covered Sonerai with a VW engine... I think I'll pass on that, there was one at my field for a while and I wasn't impressed with it... would not consider one for any cross country flying.
 
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my only tri-landing ever, was in a yankee. I quickly learned that the hershey bar style wing does not like to have the power pulled back to idle at short final like im used to, having been flying big wing taildraggers :p
 
the4ork said:
my only tri-landing ever, was in a yankee. I quickly learned that the hershey bar style wing does not like to have the power pulled back to idle at short final like im used to, having been flying big wing taildraggers :p
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What kind of wing do ya think the RV has? ;)

Granted, the RV wing does coast downhill in a bit more more friendly way than some other hershey wing planes. I flew a Cherokee 140 for ten years and learned for finessing the landings, to carry some power on final all the way until you're over the fence. An RV with a constant speed prop can be the same way... with the prop full forward you can often find yourself coming up short of the runway without carrying some power down final if you didn't plan out your descent just right. I've even encountered that in my fixed pitch RV-6 as I'm still learning how to land this beast well. (IMHO, the -6 is more difficult to land consistently pretty than the other RV models).
 
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the4ork said:
my only tri-landing ever, was in a yankee. I quickly learned that the hershey bar style wing does not like to have the power pulled back to idle at short final like im used to, having been flying big wing taildraggers :p
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I would not expect any of the short wing RV's to be much like your big wing taildragger either. Pull the red knob on a short wing RV and you are going to come down because of their hershey bar wings also.
 
Bite the bullet, beg borrow or steal a bit more for an RV 4. You will have a better plane and it will be far easier to sell down the track. If it is just not an option find a 50% share but make sure its in one of the RV models.

Good luck

Paul
 
I bought a Cessna 140 for $20K. Got my tailwheel endorsement in it. Flew it for 150 hrs. Learned a lot about planning ahead due to limited power and high DA. Learned to deal with the spring gear skyrocketing me into orbit if my wheel landings were bad. Sold it for $20K. Did transition training with Alex D. and flying the -4 after all that was a piece of cake. Good luck!
 
AX-O said:
I bought a Cessna 140 for $20K. Got my tailwheel endorsement in it. Flew it for 150 hrs. Learned a lot about planning ahead due to limited power and high DA. Learned to deal with the spring gear skyrocketing me into orbit if my wheel landings were bad. Sold it for $20K. Did transition training with Alex D. and flying the -4 after all that was a piece of cake. Good luck!
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Great advice.
 
Yep

AX-O said:
I bought a Cessna 140 for $20K. Got my tailwheel endorsement in it. Flew it for 150 hrs. Learned a lot about planning ahead due to limited power and high DA. Learned to deal with the spring gear skyrocketing me into orbit if my wheel landings were bad. Sold it for $20K. Did transition training with Alex D. and flying the -4 after all that was a piece of cake. Good luck!
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Spot on. You cannot help but get good stick & rudder skills from a bird like this.

Good advice indeed,
 
wing thing?

i think the Hersey bar wing has little to do with power and descent rate. I think it has more to do with wing loading and power loading, etc. The fact that the Hersey bar wing is a bear to land I think is an old wives tale. Granted, those planes with Hersey bar wings tend to also have other characteristics in common that makes landing a bear. I do not want people to judge a plane by the shape of the wing alone. JMO. YMMV>
 
I've owned both..

a Sonerai 2 and 2 T-18s. I truly enjoyed the Sonerai but it is a one person plane or 2 extremely light people. The T-18 is in the same class as an RV. The Sonerai is more in the same class as a KR-2. Although a bit narrower than the RV with a 38 inch cockpit the T-18 handles extremely well. You can't go wrong with a well built T-18.

the4ork said:
I cant quite afford an RV-4 yet, but I would really like to pick something up in the mean time thats two place, similar (although this seems like a stretch) performance, and I prefer a tailwheel. (never flown a tricycle)

I was thinking I could pick up a Sonerai 2 for about half-price of the RV.

the performance is about half but i think it would be a good stepping stone to get me up in the air.

any thoughts?
Click to expand...
 
I traded my motorcycle (pride and joy show winner) and all my cash savings for sn rv-4... But beware.. You get what you pay for. I got about a year out of it before I took it down for new everything. On a way it was a way to pay in parts but will have cost more in the long run. On the bright side it will be exactly like I want it when completed.
 
options....

great advice above; I bought a Cessna 140 while building my -6A and put over 325 hours on it before selling when I got my RV flying. Great experience and kept me flying while building, at the cost of slowing down my build (money and time put into Ce-140 that could have gone into RV build). No regrets.

Although it wouldn't have worked for me due to realities of military transfers, it would have been great to find a 50% partnership in an RV-4 that would not have been much different in purchase price with a partner and would have been a lot cheaper to maintain than a certified bird.

Good luck on whatever path you choose!
 
Save your money

Why not bite the bullet and save up for a RV 4. So you don't fly for a couple years, be active at the airport, help on somebody's project.........I owned a 172 till I bought the fuse to my 8A, then sold the 172. I didn't fly for over 2 years, but it was all worth it. My 8A is paid for and the break made me appreciate flying even more.

Randy
8A
 
I'll second the recommendations for the Thorp as well... It flies a lot like an RV, and not all that much slower, either. The Grumman AA1 handles like an RV-6, according to a friend who has flown both, it's just a little slower. Larger engine conversions on the Grummans do bring them closer to RV speed ranges, though.

Nice thing about these cheaper options is that whatever you pay for them, you won't lose much when you sell them a few years later when you can afford the RV-4.
 
AX-O said:
I bought a Cessna 140 for $20K. Got my tailwheel endorsement in it. Flew it for 150 hrs. Learned a lot about planning ahead due to limited power and high DA. Learned to deal with the spring gear skyrocketing me into orbit if my wheel landings were bad. Sold it for $20K. Did transition training with Alex D. and flying the -4 after all that was a piece of cake. Good luck!
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LOL most of my time is in a 170, so a lot of the same experiences here! By far the bounciest gear I have touched down on. I got my license in it.... and yes, the -4 is a piece of cake comparatively, and every other tailwheel ive flown! fox, citabria, stearman, texan, -4
 
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This was me...Rented, spent way less than owning, lowest satellite tv subscription, cancelled home internet but kept it on the phone, stopped eating out/cook at home, pack leftovers for lunch, stopped taking the annual vacation that everyone thinks you have to take, canceled full coverage on vehicles, paid everything off(banks hate it), saved up for our plane, built our plane and now enjoying at least one family trip a month. Patience my friend. An RV is worth the wait. Oh and find some local RV guys to take you up every 6 mo to keep you on track. Good luck with your navigating to RV country.
 
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pierre smith said:
A $32,000 RV-4 just came on here this morning and if I were you, I'd jump squarely on it quickly!
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Yep, looks like a very nice, clean basic -4 (in the VAF classifieds, for sale in Utah). I've seen much worse ones sell quickly for lots more money. That one will likely be sold before this weekend is done.
 
Thanks for all the advice guys, whatever I end up doing it will be cash. We'll see, if I find a good deal on something cheap that I cant pass up I might snag it to fly while I save the rest.
 
You don't HAVE to buy.

You can rent a commercially available airplane for 100 hours a year for probably 10 grand. That's a lot of recreational flying. Or - Go to the airport and find a buddy willing to let you fly his airplane for gas and some help on the hangar rent and insurance and you could do it for eaven cheaper.
 
The $25K Hamburger

the4ork said:
I cant quite afford an RV-4 yet, but I would really like to pick something up in the mean time thats two place, similar (although this seems like a stretch) performance, and I prefer a tailwheel. (never flown a tricycle)

I was thinking I could pick up a Sonerai 2 for about half-price of the RV.

the performance is about half but i think it would be a good stepping stone to get me up in the air.

any thoughts?
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Hi Richard,

First, thanks for your service. As a former Viper Driver I greatly appreciate what you do, and did.

80% of my customers want an RV but only have 25K to work with. I recommend:

1. RV-3. Arguably the best flying RV. If you intend to fly solo, it's a good option.
2. Cut expenses at home, car payment, cable etc. (Financing an airplane vice a car is cheaper in the long run/less depreciation)
3. Find a partner (s)
4. Buy something else. (see below)
5. Find a project and build, deferring the cost over time.

I have found some great airplanes under 25K for now happy customers. Contrary to popular belief and the Kool Aid profusely distributed on this site, much by me, there are viable alternatives to the RV.

My favorites are in order:

1. Thorp T-18. Why? Great airplane with arguably better control harmony than the RV. The more you explore, the more you'll like. I have about 200 hours in the T-18 and truly like it as well as many RV's I fly, maybe more. The Sunderland (folding) wing and S-18 option has very similar flight characteristics to the RV and can be trailered home. Great owners group, great support and comraderie despite being 1/100 the size of this group. Like PBS, I'm a member RU?. http://thorpaircommand.com

2. Mustang 2: A well supported excellent design with similar RV performance albeit with a Laminar Flow airfoil. Great performance although more like a Comanche, better above 10K. Equal HP M2's can easily compete speed wise with RV's or have a slight edge. Kits are still being made and they have a spirited Yahoo owners group. Find out more at: www.mustangaero.com/

3. Wittman Tailwind: Like the Marines, the Few and the Proud. Despite it's age and numbers, don't be fooled, the W10 Tailwind will match or exceed cruise speeds of any comparable HP RV for way fewer bucks. It is a fabric/steel tube and wood airplane but totally a hoot to fly. The Yahoo owners group is small, dedicated and very tight-knit. http://www.google.com/search?q=witt...AHDh4D4BA&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQsAQ&biw=1181&bih=596

4. Vari-EZ/Long EZ: Another of my closet favorites. Limited in that it needs pavement and isn't STOL or I would own one. I have about 250 EZ hours when sharing a hangar with a V-EZ. Fast, light and amazingly budget friendly for the HP. http://www.ez.org/resource.htm

5. Pitts: You can't have this much fun for under $25K! There are currently three in Barnstormers for under 25K. Nuff said!

6. Grumman AA-1: The only certified airplane on my list. The 150HP conversions can be found for under 30K and are almost always IFR capable and reasonably fast. They aren't the STOL/Acro machine the RV is, but not much else built by factories vice the Citabria are. There are many others out there in small numbers, BD-4, Sidewinder, Pulsar etc...

If I can help, let me know. Talking is free, email me offline anytime.

Smokey
[email protected]
Dues gladly paid in Iraq
Gladly paid to DR anyway...



PS: After 25 years of flying my two low budget RV's and one not so budget RV (HR2) I learned a little bit about EXP aircraft ownership. I have a small business helping people do just what you are doing, finding an RV or an affordable alternative. I built my original RV4 back in 96' for $22K, out the door, in the air, across the country. It was Spartan by any definition, but flew (and still flies) great. My current RVX came in under $30K minus paint and is in the same mold as my RV4. In the current marketplace searching for a $25K airplane and budget you are not alone. Some older RV4's are approaching 30K which reflects much on our current economy. RV's don't have to be expensive, people are just building them that way.
 
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I was in the same boat

We were lucky enough to put together a 3 man partnership and then acquired a really nice, fully equipped, IFR RV7a. Don't forget the biggest costs of ownership (hangar, insurance, improvments you want to make). It is really, really nice to be able to split those 3 ways!!!!

Also, made some new friends. Even with 3 people, the plane still only flies 10-20 hours/month.
 
Im not sure there are a lot of people that want to partner with a 27 year old low time pilot. even if that wasnt the case, ive seen too many partnerships go sour locally, imo its more headache than its worth.
 
Partnership

You know what flies EXACTLY like an RV-4, but costs half as much? Half of an RV-4! Find someone to partner with on the plane. I think even people who would claim they fly "a lot" probably average less than 200 hours per year. That leaves the plane on the ground not being used 97.7% of the time. Find a like-minded partner, sign a good partnership agreement, and enjoy paying half as much for just as much airplane!
 
T18 etc

To add a bit to what Smokey posted the original wing on the T18 can have a rather nasty stall, and this fact is reinforced by the recent accident rate. The same with the MM II, although this seems to be more of a variable dues to differences in construction accuracy on the wing leading edge.

Tailwind: comes in two flavors W8 and W10. W8's date all the way back to 1955(first plans built airplane) Most have four cyl Continentals or Lycomings up to 0 290 D. The airplane does amazingly well on 85 to 100 horsepower. A clean example will do 150 statute cruise with the C85. The stall is incredibly docile. The W10 is for engines up to the 0 320 Lyc although a few have been built with 0 360. The W10 has a longer fuselage, longer wing and all around is a better flying airplane than the W8.W10 prices are generally higher than a RV3 or 4. Red and Marilyn Hamilton have set two consecutive SARL records in their 0 320 W10, 234 and 235 m/h.

There are probably only 100-150 active Tailwinds in the US. Based on this I believe that the Tailwind may have the best accident rate of any EAB aircraft. It also has incredible occupant protection. There are several reports of Tailwinds that were destroyed with no occupant injuries. Considering that many of the older airplanes did not have shoulder harness's this is even more incredible.

groups.yahoo.com/group/tailwindforum for more info.
 
LOL @ Tailwind. I took a 170 to a flyin at columbia, I think it was around 100nm or so, the Tailwind was still in the hanger with the doors closed when I took off. When I landed the tailwind was already there. I asked the owner how long he had been there, he said long enough to button up the plane and use the restroom with time to spare. When i asked him what he averaged up here he said about 155-160. Me, thinking its just another 90kt high wing was baffled, but apparently they are fast lol. after closer inspection of his plane up close, i can see why!

they are cool planes, the visibility looks like it sucks though.
 
the4ork said:
my only tri-landing ever, was in a yankee. I quickly learned that the hershey bar style wing does not like to have the power pulled back to idle at short final like im used to, having been flying big wing taildraggers :p
Click to expand...

Believe it or not you can coax a 4-point roll out of a stock Yankee.

If you can find one with a larger engine conversion rather than an tailwheel conversion you'll be happier I believe. Although the standard fuel configuration will leave you with short legs unless there is extra fuel plumbed.

A Yankee with its symmetrical (laminar flow?) airfoil will go like stink with a 180 in it!
 
the4ork said:
my only tri-landing ever, was in a yankee. I quickly learned that the hershey bar style wing does not like to have the power pulled back to idle at short final like im used to, having been flying big wing taildraggers :p
Click to expand...

The way I learned to fly these was: Carry a brick with you. When you pull back the power toss the brick out. When the brick hits the ground, flare.
 
the4ork said:
Im not sure there are a lot of people that want to partner with a 27 year old low time pilot. even if that wasnt the case, ive seen too many partnerships go sour locally, imo its more headache than its worth.
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Nonsense!

I bought my first airplane at 23 and I had less than 60 hours, I had a partner.

Perhaps you should look for another 27 year old low time pilot to partner with?
 
Don't knock it till...

the4ork said:
LOL @ Tailwind. Me, thinking its just another 90kt high wing was baffled, but apparently they are fast lol. after closer inspection of his plane up close, i can see why! They are cool planes, the visibility looks like it sucks though.
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Richard,
Tailwinds are great airplanes as previously mentioned and cheaper than the RV4 depending on equipment. They don't share the RV4's Total Performance aspect fully, but what does? I have 150 hours in a C90 powered TW that weighed 700lbs and easily cruised at 150 MPH. They have similar visibility to my Taylorcraft, not like a canopy, but what is? Get a ride in one, I think you'll like it. If you are interested, I know of one for sale, pictured below.http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepTailwind.html

However, right now it is a buyers market, especially the RV4. If you really want one and can swing a loan for 1/2 of the cost, you won't regret the decision. After 25 years it's still my favorite personal flying machine. If you ever meet Van ask him his favorite RV...

:)
Smokey
Dues gladly paid in Iraq...
Gladly paid to DR anyway...




Mr. Wittman's Masterpiece
 
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Wittman

the4ork said:
LOL @ Tailwind. I took a 170 to a flyin at columbia, I think it was around 100nm or so, the Tailwind was still in the hanger with the doors closed when I took off. When I landed the tailwind was already there. I asked the owner how long he had been there, he said long enough to button up the plane and use the restroom with time to spare. When i asked him what he averaged up here he said about 155-160. Me, thinking its just another 90kt high wing was baffled, but apparently they are fast lol. after closer inspection of his plane up close, i can see why!

they are cool planes, the visibility looks like it sucks though.
Click to expand...

I have more that 250 hrs in the Tailwind- the Visibility is not as good as an RV, But not as bad as you think. The control harmony is not "RV like and more of a challenge in a cross wind. But It is a rocket with an empty Wt closer to a RV3 for two people. A 150 HP Tailwind that cruses at 200MPH easy. I had to move the rudder pedals though since I"m tall. Was hard to find one with the extra inches I needed. I do miss it.
 
RV 4 stepping stone

I have owned both the sonerai II and the 4. I actually got my tailwheel endorsement in the sonerai from an instructor with nerves of steel. Visibility is normally terrible from the rear of the sonerai. I could never see the runway if it was in front of me. They are a blast to fly though but needs to be controlled every second. It is docile on the ground but again vis is poor. If you can get past that go for it if you don't mind staying close to home. With the small fuel supply I'd be looking for a spot to land in less than two hours. The 4 is a dream after the sonerai. Great visibilty, docile, plenty of fuel and fast and way more comfortable. Good luck.
 
Tailwind

The white Tailwind in the picture is a W8/W10 hybrid, powered by a Continental 0 300. This is a very nice airplane that hasn't flown much, I don't know the times. The tapered tip is used on the W8 and W10, with most W8 wingtips being retrofits.
Wittman designed and built the Tailwind in 1953 as a one off personal traveling airplane. He wanted to see the country so he chose the high wing for unobtructed downward visibility. With the windshield extended back around 18" from the front spar the visibility in a turn is quite good AFTER some bank is established. The cutout in the inboard wing leading edge also helps visibility a bit.
The Phoenix airplane is also a nice airplane but does have some major damage history.
 
Wingtip

Paul Lipps liked to take credit for the tapered wingtip but it was actually designed by Steve Wittman in the 70's. Steve did a lot of experimenting with wingtip configuration and the tapered tip was the best.
 
RV-4 Purchase

I waited 13 years before I puchased my RV-4. The first and last plane I'll ever own. Definitely worth the wait.
 
I was about your age when I started building my -4. I started building the tail in the living room of my apartment. I built much of the fuselage in a rented single bay garage. It took 10 years to complete, but it was a great trip. I lived in 3 apartments and one house before I finished. The plane was built in 7 different addresses during that time. My dad helped a lot, though he lived 200 miles away.

When I started, I had no idea how I could afford it, or where I could keep it. Start building, work out the details as you go. Rent in the meantime. I have yet to meet an aircraft owner who can honestly say "it is cheaper to own than rent." Being the builder will forever keep the maintenance cost lower, too.

Good luck
 
Have you looked at a Sonex. I fly a jabiru powered one awesome plane but about as much as a -4. The VW ones are a lot more affordable.
 
This is VERY good advice.


AX-O said:
I bought a Cessna 140 for $20K. Got my tailwheel endorsement in it. Flew it for 150 hrs. Learned a lot about planning ahead due to limited power and high DA. Learned to deal with the spring gear skyrocketing me into orbit if my wheel landings were bad. Sold it for $20K. Did transition training with Alex D. and flying the -4 after all that was a piece of cake. Good luck!
Click to expand...
 
Options...

the4ork said:
I cant quite afford an RV-4 yet, but I would really like to pick something up in the mean time thats two place, similar (although this seems like a stretch) performance, and I prefer a tailwheel. (never flown a tricycle)

I was thinking I could pick up a Sonerai 2 for about half-price of the RV.

the performance is about half but i think it would be a good stepping stone to get me up in the air.

any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Richard,
You being a member of the Viper family, I can share my RV4 odyssey from picking up a Kitplanes in our Intel vault at Misawa to the first flight 9 years later. Built it on a tight budget while flying the F-16 full time, numerous desert deployments and with the help of alot of friends.

Advice? Don't stop dreaming, the RV4 is a great airplane, period. I put 1500 hours on mine in 8 years and a laundry list of pre-internet, pre-VAF, pre-cellphone, pre-FAST card, pre-pre punch adventures and destinations Vlad's travels will be challenged to approach in a lifetime!

Buying a Sonerai, Cessna 120, T-Craft, Luscombe or even a FlyBaby, Smith miniplane or Pober Pixie, all will help you build time and fly while you build. The Tailwind is a great airplane as well, as is the Thorp T-18 http://t18.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1&Itemid=118 and all could be found for under $25K. Having been blessed to fly all of the above mentioned airplanes, the RV4 wins, hands down, even above all the other RV's. The Rocket is another subject...:)

Build you say? Yes, build. Buy an RV4 project and finish it. You'll be much happier with yourself and the airplane and be able to answer the age old first gas pump question. Did you build it? You betcha...
You already have the background, put it to use!

My Dos Centavos...
V/R
Smokey

PS: You might even be able to find an RV4 partner in the meantime, maybe even on this site!
 
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