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How much land is needed for RV capable strip

Bubblehead

Bubblehead

Well Known Member
I am especially interested in first hand experience with this issue but everyone's opinion is welcome.

My wife and I are starting to look for land to build our retirement shack on. We may locate far enough from civilization to have a hanger and strip on the property. I know what my RV-8 can do for take off distance but in reality I think landing distance is the limiting factor.

1) assuming about 1000 MSL and no obstacles on either end, what minimum grass runway length would you consider safe? 1500'? 1800'? 2000'?
2) This is a more nebulous question. How many acres would you suggest as a minimum to stay a bit isolated from neighbors? 10? 15? 20? A lot depends on land shape and roads and other items but just a guess is fine.

I think the real answer will be normally keep the RV in a hanger at a paved airport and use the grass for secondary aviation like a Just Highlander, but knowing the requirements for the RV will help set the optimal.

As always, what is desired and what is achievable are two different things. I will adjust my desires at an later time once I have done my homework.
 
My strip it 1500' @ 645'MSL in Texas. It is perfectly adequate if you pay attention. I've been flying off of it for regularly for over 20 years. It is asphalt, but flew off of it many years as grass. I would not want any less. I have several friends that won't land their RVs here, some because of the 20' width, but have many more that do. It depends a lot on how you were originally taught to fly. I learned to fly at a very short, narrow runway. So for me it was the norm. People who learn at relatively large airports generally have more problems with short, narrow strips.
 
A grass strip of 1900' would be as short as I would like. Not because of me, but my friends won't go into anything much less. Like Mel said, I would be ok with 1500 and have been on one that's 1100, but wouldn't do it a lot. 50 acres squared would give you the 1900' plus privacy. You would want one long enough for the 172's and 152's if they wanted to visit, thus the 1900'. This, of course, is based on an elevation of less than 1000 msl.
 
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1500' (with open approaches) can be comfortable, with practice & proficiency. More is obviously better. Only reason for hard surface is socializing with other pilots & 'gotta go' situations; rain can sometimes make sod too soft.

Check for neighbor & local zoning conflicts when selecting locations, then follow through with FAA registering of the strip; that can help down the road with towers, insurance rates, etc.

Charlie
Slobovia Outernational (MS71)
 
I'd want something wider than 20'. I landed once at 1N1 in the RV-10 - 4800' long but only 30' wide, and very rough pavement. The visual gave me the impression I was going a boat load faster that I was - and then I started to want more width to go around all the bad spots.

So my vote - 2000' x 50'

Carl
 
strip

Flew my 7AC out of 1000' for years then the trees got to high.
If I had a clear approach I wouls fly my RV6 out of it.
Bob
 
Somewhere in the dark and dusty corner of my mind I seem to remember that Van had a 600' strip at the old family farm.
 
Narrow runways freak me out. Once I'm on it I'm fine but as Carl mentioned the visual can be that you're going too fast and you're going to run off the side.

That said in my STOL 172 I land and am off within 1500 ft easily.
 
Bubblehead said:
I know what my RV-8 can do for take off distance but in reality I think landing distance is the limiting factor.
.
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Its not clear to me why you think landing distance is the limiting factor. IMHO its take-off distance thats the problem. In anycase, the small airpark I have property on is grass 2300'.
 
Here I agree with Bubblehead. Take-Off distance is pretty much defined.
Each landing is different.
BTW, I fly out of my 1500' strip with F/P.
 
Mel said:
My strip it 1500' @ 645'MSL in Texas. It is perfectly adequate if you pay attention. I've been flying off of it for regularly for over 20 years. It is asphalt, but flew off of it many years as grass. I would not want any less. I have several friends that won't land their RVs here, some because of the 20' width, but have many more that do. It depends a lot on how you were originally taught to fly. I learned to fly at a very short, narrow runway. So for me it was the norm. People who learn at relatively large airports generally have more problems with short, narrow strips.
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I can't speak for "narrow", but 1500' with good approaches would be my limit. There is a local one way grass field here that is ~2100'. It has a bump at the approach end, making it effectively a shorter field. Being a 1 way strip (IMO) means you need a little more real estate to work with because your go-around options are limited.

Mel, how heavy will you go out of your strip in the summer? How about when it was a dirt/grass strip?
 
1100 feet

Watch landing at ladybank field on utube.
1500 feet is easy, any shorter and you increase the level of difficulty.
 
Kyle Boatright said:
Mel, how heavy will you go out of your strip in the summer? How about when it was a dirt/grass strip?
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The most I've ever taken off with in my -6 was 1750 lbs. (170 hp F/P)

I've flown everything from C-150s to Bananzas in and out. (The Bananzas were not at gross weight)

And for historical relevance, one fellow flew his 100 hp Vari-Eze in & out. (All other -Eze pilots say he is crazy)
 
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Don't Ever Let Anyone Talk You Into Something that You"re Not Comfortable With

That being said, you live in a great area to practice take-offs and landings at high density altitudes, strong crosswinds, and at max gross weight. The key is practice. You best bet is to pick two spots - one with a long, paved runway with plenty of reference points for distance and the second a grass strip, also with plenty of reference points. Set goals for yourself each time and make every takeoff and landing a short/soft field event, no matter what the conditions. Load the plane to gross as often as possible. Practice. Oh yeah, you might want to start with slow flight to get comfortable with flying close to stall. Practice. If it helps, get someone like Mel to do some circuits with you- you'll be amazed what even a lower powered plane with fixed pitch can do in skilled hands. Practice until you find a comfort spot for yourself and your aircraft. Determine conditions where you're always comfortable and confident.
What are we taking about ?- practice. We're talking about practice (Allen Iverson)
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
YEP!

Flying into and out of short strips is just like getting to Carnegie Hall.
It just takes practice!
 
I have a friend with a 2,000' grass runway about 50' wide (mowed area). He says the runway uses about 5 acres of his 50 acre farm(original question). It's at about 600' MSL and works fine for any RV. Trees at one end create a greater landing limitation than taking off towards them do.
 
maniago said:
Its not clear to me why you think landing distance is the limiting factor. IMHO its take-off distance thats the problem. In anycase, the small airpark I have property on is grass 2300'.
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Hi Mani,

For RVs, most can climb up and over obstacles in less distance than they can land over, due to the high pwr/weight ratio & fat wing. Might be a bit different with the thinner, smaller wing of the M-II.

Charlie
 
Factors to consider

Private strips require grass mowing, snow plowing, drainage
If you get far enough away from civilization to avoid problems like neighbors and laws, then you are also farther away from shopping and doctors and etc. The convenience of walking out of your house to your airplane is offset by the inconvenience and expense of driving to the nearest town.
If your private strip is minimal length for your skill and the aircraft's performance, then you will not fly as much. You will wait for more favorable wind and temperatures. Flying is supposed to be fun. If your palms are sweaty on final approach into a tight spot, it is not fun and you will be reluctant to fly unless conditions are ideal.
Perhaps an airpark will meet your goal. Runway expenses are shared by other pilots who also meet your social needs.
 
Joe makes some good points, but location modifies all points except maintenance time. We're approx 25 minutes from the nearest major town, but most day to day needs are 5 minutes away. And in many cities, it's 25 minutes to just about anything, anyway.

Maintenance time is a much bigger issue. We're in the south, on a strip with 11 other families. Trust me; mowing a 20 acre strip (4800x80 ft) 3 times a season really does beat mowing 30 times a season. And ours needs rolling once or twice a year, as well, lights to maintain, etc.

But if a community strip isn't available in your area, diy may be your only option.

Still worth it in many cases, with hangar rents so high in some areas.

Charlie
 
Bubblehead said:
I am especially interested in first hand experience with this issue but everyone's opinion is welcome.

My wife and I are starting to look for land to build our retirement shack on. We may locate far enough from civilization to have a hanger and strip on the property. I know what my RV-8 can do for take off distance but in reality I think landing distance is the limiting factor.

1) assuming about 1000 MSL and no obstacles on either end, what minimum grass runway length would you consider safe? 1500'? 1800'? 2000'?
2) This is a more nebulous question. How many acres would you suggest as a minimum to stay a bit isolated from neighbors? 10? 15? 20? A lot depends on land shape and roads and other items but just a guess is fine.

I think the real answer will be normally keep the RV in a hanger at a paved airport and use the grass for secondary aviation like a Just Highlander, but knowing the requirements for the RV will help set the optimal.

As always, what is desired and what is achievable are two different things. I will adjust my desires at an later time once I have done my homework.
Click to expand...

Not trying to create thread drift but wonder if the answer depends also on shape of landing area which determines the heading of the runway. If prevailing winds are going to cause many cross wind landings I would think longer, wider runway would be more desireable. If I was always going to have a headwind, I would be much more comfortable with something short. Is their help from anywhere (FAA, NOAA, AOPA) to help decide direction to set up runway, assuming trees and landscape do not dictate it for you?
 
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Scott Hersha said:
I have a friend with a 2,000' grass runway about 50' wide (mowed area). He says the runway uses about 5 acres of his 50 acre farm(original question). It's at about 600' MSL and works fine for any RV. Trees at one end create a greater landing limitation than taking off towards them do.
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An acre is 43560 sf so that rwy is (2000x50)/43560=2.29 acrs.

Some of the Wheat farmers where I learned to fly around The Dalles, Oregon and east had turf or dirt runways 15' wide, by 1000' and they thought it was very spacious. Super Cubs mainly, but mine was a 1947 PA12 I bought in 1957 for $1400. Had 700 hrs. since new. It was ok for the farm strips but no match for the S Cubs which were mostly 150HP. Mine was a O-235 Lyco 115 hp (Takeoff only)

Merry Christmas to all you fine aviators and wannabees.

Merry Christmas to Doug and hope the donations roll in that he and family so richly deserve. We could not do this without you...

Jerry
 
Bubblehead said:
I am especially interested in first hand experience with this issue but everyone's opinion is welcome.

My wife and I are starting to look for land to build our retirement shack on. We may locate far enough from civilization to have a hanger and strip on the property. I know what my RV-8 can do for take off distance but in reality I think landing distance is the limiting factor.

1) assuming about 1000 MSL and no obstacles on either end, what minimum grass runway length would you consider safe? 1500'? 1800'? 2000'?
2) This is a more nebulous question. How many acres would you suggest as a minimum to stay a bit isolated from neighbors? 10? 15? 20? A lot depends on land shape and roads and other items but just a guess is fine.

I think the real answer will be normally keep the RV in a hanger at a paved airport and use the grass for secondary aviation like a Just Highlander, but knowing the requirements for the RV will help set the optimal.

As always, what is desired and what is achievable are two different things. I will adjust my desires at an later time once I have done my homework.
Click to expand...

Many variables, John, much will depend on your preferences, not experience of others.

I would consider the cost of building a hangar, runway and maintaining both. It is not cheap. There will come a day when it will be time to throw in the towel with flying, what then with all this investment?

Maybe think about a cute little retirement home somewhere not far from a cute little airport.
 
David-aviator said:
Many variables, John, much will depend on your preferences, not experience of others.

I would consider the cost of building a hangar, runway and maintaining both. It is not cheap. There will come a day when it will be time to throw in the towel with flying, what then with all this investment?

Maybe think about a cute little retirement home somewhere not far from a cute little airport.
Click to expand...

I don't have any other hobbies other than building, flying and excavation work(building my own grass strip). I've had my hangar going on 15 years and using my 2400 ft. runway for over 10. One thing I know for sure , I would have no hobbies if I did not have both my own hangar and grass strip in my back yard. Nothing like going out the back door with no plans and then finding your self in the air ten minutes after you see how nice the weather is.
Go for it and worry about what comes of it after you no longer want to fly. My wife and daughter already have their plans when I'm gone. Horse barn and horse pasture. I will have to be dead for those plans to come to fruition.
 
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I agree with Ron. I fly a lot more with the runway at home then driving even 10 minutes to our local airport. Look out the window, walk to the barn, in the air a few minutes later. There is really nothing like having your airplane at home. In 15 years of having my grass strip I have never not been able to land there due to cross wind issues. If the winds are 25knots and gusty I just do not fly as the fun factor goes way down in those conditions in these light aircraft. I had 2000' for a few years but added 400' more and it has really added to the versatility of the strip.
My hangar doors are always open, no locks required. Mere minutes to flight.

Having said all that good stuff;
Your own runway is not cheap.
Land cost- My runway/ramp takes 4 acres of good farm land. Around here $300/acre rent makes a lost opportunity cost of $1200/year

Mower cost- a few thousand if you do not count the tractor. Mower maintenance adds up over time. In May the runway needs to be cut every other day. These small wheels and tight pants need short grass
There are more hours put on the tractor every year then are put on the airplane.
This is a serious consideration if you have time constraints.
For the last few years I have hired local kids to cut the runway with annual costs in the $1200 range.

My fertilizer bill is about $700 per year. You can not grow good grass without fertilizer.

Thus my costs are between 3 and $5000 per year. You could get a real nice hangar at the airport for that.

But, there is something magical about having your airplane at home.....
 
John, come see me! I'll show you what 1700' looks and feels like!... I'm spoilt!... I'll never settle for having my plane anywhere but a short walk from my back door!
 
Size

When I was looking years ago, I assumed 10ac would work for me. I ended up with more but my strip clearing is 1400ftx150ft with 75-100 ft trees both ends. I flew the -6a (150hp FP) regularly in and out and you really had to be in tune with the plane. I had a YouTube video of it somewhere. Sold the -6a for a Maule which didn't have a problem even at full gross. Now I have a -9 (io360 CS) and it's rather fun. If I were to offer advice, I would try to find a clearing about 2000ft x 100ft or more. That way you can see visitors from time to time. The only visitors I get is cub or Maule drivers. As for cutting the grass, that's what the horses and goats are for. I cut my field one time last year. Also, it's a great feeling to look up at the evening sky from you back porch and decide to go for a quick hop around the patch without driving anywhere. Driving a car is dangerous these days. 😄
 
If you try the above posters1700' strip, try to do it without brakes because when you land on wet grass, that's what it will be like. Mine is 1850 and is plenty. My cost are lower than Tom's. Forgone land rent is high on mid-west corn ground but much lower in the southeast or on poor ground. I don't use any fertilizer and mow about once a week during a wet summer, much less during a dry spell. Doesn't take much time to mow if you have a tractor and a big finishing mower and mower m&r expense is low on just a few a., tractor expense could be much more with a little bad luck. I have cut it with my 72" grass cutter, just takes 3x as long. You said you wanted to be isolated from neighbors, 10-20a sounds like a lot in the city but is jam up to them out in the country. Having your own strip and hangar out the back door is about as good as it gets so go for it.
 
rv7charlie said:
Hi Mani,

For RVs, most can climb up and over obstacles in less distance than they can land over, due to the high pwr/weight ratio & fat wing. Might be a bit different with the thinner, smaller wing of the M-II.

Charlie
Click to expand...

Ah, my bad guys. I get the wing thing, but in truth I was actually thinking C152-172 stuff when I commented as I remember distinctly doing t/o calculations but never landing calcs. Maybe thats because it'd always been tarmac for landings and I have put more than a few carrier landings on the flight school trainers. Guess I'll need to rethink that come first flight. Cheers!;)
 
Read carefully

Lots of good advice in the previous posts.

A runway in your back yard is a wonderful thing. You'll fly twice as much because of the convenience. But expensive, and lots of work. Our HOA spends $2500 annually on our 3000 x 80 turf runway. But that budget only works due to experience finding the absolute cheapest source of seed, fertilizer, and herbicides. Not to mention the need for a lot of volunteer work and equipment. A lot more is involved in maintaining turf than just mowing.

Here's my feeling regarding size. As always, bigger is better. With 3000 feet, I've rarely seen the East end of our runway. 1500 to 1800 gets very comfortable even over some trees. BUT, if you ever want your friends to visit you don't want much under 2500. I know you'll hear lots of stories of shorter fields, but your 1500 ft will look like a postage stamp to many of your friends. Not to mention that the -A models will likely never visit no matter now much turf you have. And width? Don't do less than 50' or once again, you'll be very lonely. (Unless your friends all own a Cub or a Maule)

Everything can be done smaller and cheaper. But if you want a versatile facility that you can be proud of, these are my observations.

If you build it, they will come. (Maybe)
 
CJ1 ? on 2500'

I have a hangar on a private strip with 2500' useable paved. Out mowing my lawn on a blustery day and something weird is on approach that I have never seen before at my airstrip. A CJ1 is on short final and touches down just past the displaced threshold and stops with lots of margin. I asked the pilot later how it was and he said "no problem".

I used to regurlarly land my RV4 (solo) at a friends 700' ultralite strip. You just have to hit your mark and use more than average but not excessive braking.
 
1500' are fine, but also wouldn't want to have much less available to feel comfortable.
obstacles in the approach path are very important too, almost more important than ground roll/strip size. our analysis of takeoffs and landings shows about a 50%/50% split of ground roll distance vs initial climb phase (horizontal distance) and short final / landing flare (horizontal distance) vs rollout, for the typical 50' obstacle clearance scenario. in the landing case, with a tendency to a longer airborne part, the ground roll depending on amount of braking.
say you have flat ends without any tall crop fields on each end, things look much better than if there are trees and corn fields...

we have a constant speed prop and we definitely are landing distance limited. should be the case for most 180hp rv's, even with fixed pitch prop.
not even packed to MTOW would we use more distance than for landing.

also, as you want to treat the nosegear with care on an -A, it pays if you don't have to constantly hit exactly the same spot but can afford to fly a stabilized approach and a smooth flare everytime. the 1500' will still allow for that.

width-wise, i wouldn't want any less than 20' plus some wingtip clearance.

obviously grass does not equal grass. the firmer the better, the best being concrete or asphalt. predictability of performance after rain/wet soil could be an issue, as could be the wheelpants/tires being too tiny/getting clogged.

good luck with your project!

p.s. regarding winds and crosswinds: i feel the 7A handles it better than many other GA airplanes, so wind isn't anything especially tricky/special constraint (unless maybe with a taildragger).
 
MikeyDale said:
John, come see me! I'll show you what 1700' looks and feels like!... I'm spoilt!... I'll never settle for having my plane anywhere but a short walk from my back door!
Click to expand...

Will do. We have been meaning to get together and this is the perfect excuse. Let us know when you are back on terra firma and have time for visitors.
 
Amazing responses

I have always been impressed by the information available from the folks on this forum but the responses to my question have exceeded even my high expectations.

In particular the precision of the answers and the amount of information who are living their runway decisions means a lot. I purposely did not put a lot of other information in the OP and I think that was a good idea. It allowed everyone to put their thoughts in more broadly.

I'll let the discussion continue for a while before closing the thread. I think the information will be useful to people in the future too. I am sure others have had and will in the future have the same basic question.

Thanks everyone!
 
I used to dream of building a grass strip. In addition to length and width of runway and clear approaches I was also thinking of crowning the runway slightly for drainage and type of grass. Also considered different grass for landing zones on each end. Lots of things to think about. Local ordinances (Maury County, Tennessee!!!) prohibit new privately owned runways, so I've heard. Presently unchallenged, but should be.
 
49clipper

Been flying out of my grass strip airport for 34 years now. 2500' x 100'. RV-6 with O-320 F.Pitch prop. Never an issue. Trees at one end with a 100" displaced (marked) threshold. Never use much over a third of it for landing or takeoff. On a 90f day with no wind and two on board I use about a 1000' (guess) for takeoff. Elevation 640msl. Regularly fly to a grass strip for lunch that is 1800' x 60' with no issues. Use about half of it. No obstructions.
Jim
 
I'm trying to digest all this information, some of the information concerns me but the folks that say "Do it and don't look back" keeps me planning my dream.

I live on 150 acres 25 miles west of T67, I sold the Bonanza and bought the ~8 with the plan in mind of building a grass strip and hanger out my back door, then selling the Hanger at KXBP once I was ready to move in.
Well it looks like that time has come to build the dream with an offer in my hand on my existing home.

This thread is exciting !!!!

I did not read what grass is suggested, my fields are all coastal Bermuda.

For the last week I have sat in the 4 wheeler almost daily planning this adventure, obviously with beer in hand.
I live in the county with no restrictions that I know of yet.
Concerns are....Fencing for the cows, drainage and reliable contractor.
The insight provided in this thread is appreciated and look forward to learning more.
 
When you are based at a short-ish grass strip

...very few fly-out destinations are intimidating. So you'll have that going for you. I honestly don't know if I would ever have made myself get comfortable with short grass runways if I hadn't known it was do-or-die, master it or find a new hobby for me. My first flights were done from a 7,001' paved runway with crash truck and the whole works. But I knew the day would come when I would have to make my first grass landing in the -6A, and at the same time christen my new runway in the backyard. Now it's old hat - and I've never come close to scaring myself getting in and out of there in 18 years. 2100x50 feet.

Do it! America needs more private airfields. Consider it your patriotic duty:D
 
2000' x 25' with 50'-100' tree's both ends. I find it far more challenging to make a good landing on long wide runways!
 
stancaruthers said:
This thread is exciting !!!!

I did not read what grass is suggested, my fields are all coastal Bermuda.
Click to expand...

This is the grass used at the Troy Airpark, Missouri, where I lived for about 8 years.


Kentucky 31 exhibits these desirable traits:

Attractive green color.
Considered drought resistant.
Handles traffic - wear well.
More heat tolerant than other Tall Fescue varieties
Easy to establish and economical
Kentucky 31 is one of the older "proven" lawn grass varieties with a light green, coarse texture. K-31 remains popular still because of it's lower price and good overall usage qualities (drought / wear / easy establishment). This tall fescue grass variety is ideal for average lawn and turf use.

It gets hot in Missouri every summer, this grass would go dormant and appear dried up and dead but it always came back in the fall. it has a deep root structure.

The Airpark has 1700' of grass where we typically landed, and 2200' of asphalt for take off.

Good set up. Mowing was always fun, 6 or 8 guys would respond to email or text message with tractors or zero turn mowers, "its time to mow" and it would be cut and trimmed sometime in an hour.
 
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