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Big Brother (DHS) is Watching

Bubblehead

Bubblehead

Well Known Member
This may be better put in a different sub forum. I'll depend on the highly trained and friendly moderators to make the call. This concerns a phone conversation with Department of Homeland Security after a long flight. Ironflight's recent thread on avoiding weather while transversing Texas reminded me that I need to tell the story of a trip from Fort Worth to Mason City, Iowa in my -8 a couple of weeks ago.

As background, I have a standard 6-pack of instruments and a Garmin 496 with XM weather, and through the entire flight I had clear skies east and southeast.

There were a lot of rain showers between the Red River and Tulsa. Ceilings were about 1000' and I don't like being caught that low. So I climbed up to 11,500 and trucked north until I got to the building cumulo nimbus south of Tulsa and had to wind my way through them. I stayed legal but had to make some 120 degree turns and climb a little to get through all of them.

A little north of Tulsa things got good for a couple of hundred miles and I bee-lined for MCW. Past Kansas City the clouds were building again so I did more twisting and turning and at one point even did a 360 degree turn. The first 90 was to head between two clouds and the (almost immediate) 270 was to get back out of there because I could see lots of motion in the clouds and was concerened with turbulence.

So between Kansas City and Des Moines I ended up moving farther northeast along the front to find a way around the clouds and finally decided that I did not have enough fuel to get around them and then into Mason City so I trimmed down elevator for a 500 fpm descent, headed east to clear weather and landed at the beautiful little airport in Oskaloosa, Iowa (OOA). Firendly people, a quick fill up, a bathroom break and then back into the cockpit to get on up to Mason City.

The best is yet to come!

The skies were clear and beautiful and I only had an hour to go so I climbed to just 2500 feet, throttled back, and cruised along enjoying the beautiful summer evening. When I got close to Mason City I decided to go a few miles north to get some aerial photographs of a facility we operate so I flew up over the town of Manly, flew 3 circuits around the facility and then landed at Mason City.

Just as I was starting to tie down the airplane, a police officer walked across the ramp to me. I thought he was probably just coming to admire the -8 or tell me what a beautiful landing I'd made. Nope, he very politely asked if I had just landed (yes) and could he see my drivers license, pilot's license, and aircraft registration (yes, yes, and yes). He was soon joined by another very polite officer who called in the drivers license info (no wants, no warrants!).

Ultimately I ended up on one of the officer's cell phones talking to a gentleman from the Department of Homeland Security. It seems they had been watching my "erratic behavior" on radar all the way from Tulsa and were concerned that I was somehow incapacitated. When I landed at Oskaloosa they sent the police out to talk to me but I took off before they got there! Then they watched me circle three times around a point in Iowa before landing.

According to the guy on the phone they were mostly concerned for my safety but that sort of fell apart when I said "so I successfully navigated around and through storms from Texas to Iowa, landed at a small airport, fueled my plane, flew to another little Iowa town, did turns around a point, navigated to Mason City and landed. All while incapacitated."

I also asked the guy if he had checked weather along the route, and did he know there was a whole line of thunderstorms across OK KS MO and IA.

I'm not sure what to think about it all. Everyone was very nice about it, but I really don't like having to show all that stuff just because someone was watching a radar screen for 5 hours while I traveled 800 or 900 miles. I also don't like the government tracking me and my plane when I'm legally committing aviation. I also don't like thinking there is now a report filed somewhere with all my information on it. Maybe the next time I ask for flight following my N-number will bring up some info.

Any comments?

Oh - had the same weather problems coming back two days later. Every time I made a turn I chuckled thinking about some poor DHS guy or gal watching the radar screen wondering what kind of (incapacitated) idiot was flying the plane. Nobody was waiting for me when I landed at Hicks though so I guess it all worked out ok.
 
Don't worry big brother is watching your every move! Just amazed how much money is wasted on this stuff! I wonder what would have happened if you refused to give them your stuff?
 
It's a good job...

...the the "facility" you inspected wasn't a nuclear power plant...:)

And I presume you have a mode C transponder and not a Mode S... since they didn't seem to have your N-number down pat...
 
Mode C ...

...and definitely was not looking at a nuke plant, although the logic of worrying about a 1500 lb plane doing anything to the containment vessel of a reactor astounds me.

It reminds me of Chicago's Major Daily wanting a no-fly zone around downtown after 9-11. He was worried about "one of those little planes intentionally flying into a building." Of course, there are already laws making that illegal, but he seemed to think another law would deter someone willing to die anyway.

Actually the site handles wind turbine components. Doug Rozendaal flies over it all the time too. Here is a picture:

1027540103_JBJxM-M.jpg


1027540320_fwhmE-M.jpg


The site is emptying out fast. We spent last winter filling it up off railroad cars and once the thaw happened we started loading trucks to go to the wind sites in Minnesota, Illinois and Indiana. We've recently shipped as many as 36 truckloads in a day.

Come to think of it, the facility also has an ethanol storage and shipping terminal! Not exactly underway on nuclear power but could do some damage.
 
It would not have been DHS concerned about you being incapacitated. t would have been the FAA if safety or incapacitation were a concern.
 
N395V said:
It would not have been DHS concerned about you being incapacitated. t would have been the FAA if safety or incapacitation were a concern.
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And I'm just ornery enough to go up and TRY to get DHS to follow me ... heheh ... ;)
 
N395V said:
It would not have been DHS concerned about you being incapacitated. t would have been the FAA if safety or incapacitation were a concern.
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That's exactly what I thought.Some of it just did not make sense. Why would I do "flight of the bumble bee" over 5 states and then attack some target? There were not even any TFRs out there other than the one in Dallas for President Bush, I was heading away from Dallas.

N8RV - I like the way you think! Maybe we should have a mass fly around where we all weave our way all over the sky. It could be some kind of mass demonstration or protest against Big Brother. I wonder what DHS would think if 500 small airplanes were all doing the cha cha across the sky at the same time?
 
You should feel honored. I made a few 180's and 360's trying to stay out of weather on my way to Oshkosh a few years ago and nobody checked my credentials. :confused:

I see a new TV show coming. Instead of "Everybody Loves Raymond" it would be "Everybody Loves Bubblehead."
 
Big Brother TSA and Shoplifting

This scenerio reminds me of what I would say if some Walmart rent-a-cop wrongfully accused me of shoplifting (which would never happen).

Here it is: "If you find that I took something with paying, I get arrested and dragged off to jail. If you have wrongfully detained me and accused me of something, what happens to YOU!!!" Don't seem right does it?

And interstingly enough, Ira Glass from "This American Life" PBS radio did a similar story about a guy "WRONGFULLY ACCUSED." Listen to the second story on show #414 "You have the Right To Remain Silent" This guy took a hard nose stance when being accused by the police/courts system and it cost him, even though HE WAS INNOCENT!

Yeh, I know, we've strayed from building an RV. So what primer do you use? Tip up or slider? Nose wheel or tail..........
 
Just Wrong!

Man this irritates the **** out of me. John and Martha King at gun point. A corp jet in S. Texas being met with armed intervention coming off a domestic IFR flight plan a month ago and now this!
Just what is happening to our country? I know DR says no politics, but this is beyond that - it is a complete invasion of our civil liberties!
I call BS!

Also, I like the sky-writing idea! I have plenty of things to say to those folks....
 
I would love to know how much of our tax $$$ is spent on activities such as this. Perhaps it's time to slam them with FOIA requests? Anyone have any other ideas?

Not wanting to rush entirely into judgement though, could there perhaps be a legitimate reason for this?
 
I have a similar story. With mode S, they still had to call the tower after tracking us for almost four hours for our tail number. I was most upset with the expense involved. I chocked it up to a training cost.
 
All they're doing is encouraging people to turn off their transponders. Where's the safety in that??
 
All they're doing is encouraging people to turn off their transponders. Where's the safety in that??
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Actually quite the contrary for me. Now I can't wait to install a transponder and go for a little flight... :D

I can see the headlines now... 950 lb. (max gross) aircraft capable of carrying almost 15 gallons of fuel with only a single person aboard flagrantly painted to resemble a World War II fighter aircraft threatens the safety of farmland on the eastern planes of Colorado... Film at eleven.
 
KatieB said:
All they're doing is encouraging people to turn off their transponders. Where's the safety in that??
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They already have a Big Brother rule for that.....91.215(c):

(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with §91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC.

The underlining is mine. I'd like to know if it was added to the FAR in recent times.
 
Has anyone informed EAA and AOPA of these tracking incidents? I'd be curious as to their thoughts about such activity.
 
couple of random thoughts maybe surprisingly anti current thread direction:

They might not have spent any extra money on the whole episode. everyone involved may already be on salary/ contract to provide certain services, of which this tracking episode fell under.

they might not be doing any better at moving traffic around but this shows a good example of government trying to do something. they laid out a plan (look out for erratic possibly bad people flying dangerous objects through the air), they started monitoring to try and find people, and they followed up on what looked on screen like a possible threat. if we all think its ridiculous maybe its because we know something they don't know (little airplanes equal pretty small bomb-plane). however, by the radar scope they might not be able to tell the size of the plane so it was a good excuse to do a polite investigation. the size of the plane might not be such a threat definer, it might be the speed. there are other things they need to consider besides suicide airplane bombers, such as a guy with a fast airplane trying to collide with either an airplane flying with a VIP or hitting a VIP on the ground. with speed its harder to stop something like that


i'd much rather have a polite policeman coming out to the plane and asking for the papers than having a couple cars of swat showing up, and we all know any law enforcement officer can ask for those papers.

sorry this happened to the OP, but i don't think its that big a deal with the current laws. i don't agree that any LEO can ask for papers at any time but thats another thread.
 
Hmm. reminded me I want to catch "Please remove your shoes" (movie)

Danny7 said:
couple of random thoughts maybe surprisingly anti current thread direction:

They might not have spent any extra money on the whole episode. everyone involved may already be on salary/ contract to provide certain services, of which this tracking episode fell under.

they might not be doing any better at moving traffic around but this shows a good example of government trying to do something. they laid out a plan (look out for erratic possibly bad people flying dangerous objects through the air), they started monitoring to try and find people, and they followed up on what looked on screen like a possible threat. if we all think its ridiculous maybe its because we know something they don't know (little airplanes equal pretty small bomb-plane). however, by the radar scope they might not be able to tell the size of the plane so it was a good excuse to do a polite investigation. the size of the plane might not be such a threat definer, it might be the speed. there are other things they need to consider besides suicide airplane bombers, such as a guy with a fast airplane trying to collide with either an airplane flying with a VIP or hitting a VIP on the ground. with speed its harder to stop something like that


i'd much rather have a polite policeman coming out to the plane and asking for the papers than having a couple cars of swat showing up, and we all know any law enforcement officer can ask for those papers.

sorry this happened to the OP, but i don't think its that big a deal with the current laws. i don't agree that any LEO can ask for papers at any time but thats another thread.
Click to expand...

I appreciate another perspective and I recognize that it is good that the already retained folks are doing something..... but we have to talk about opportunity cost here. Once the police talked to the folks at the first FBO and found out there was nothing unusual, shouldn't Homeland security moved on to other activities?

Opportunity cost specifically in the sense that every low value or low probability investigation that eats up resources takes away resources from those activities that should be closely monitored. If they are sitting around on their thumbs, looking for things to do, maybe DHS is overstaffed, no?

heres a link to a docu-movie "Please remove your shoes".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTJ9v1s1Oak

I particulary like the term "security theater" in the teaser.
I haven't seen the movie, but after watching how security has evolved following 9/11 my sentiments are similar. While I think we are making well intentioned efforts, at some level I think the inconvenience imposed outweighs the return. Trying to make aviation safe is pandora's box for a society such as ours that values personal iiberty. I don't have all the answers, but sure seem odd that in this case it went as far as it did.

I suppose me in that situation, I'd push to find out what were the grounds for the investigation. At the border crossing, rules are different but approached by a police officer inside the good ole USA... I'm going to politely request I be told what this is about before going ahead with sharing documents.
 
Danny7 said:
i'd much rather have a polite policeman coming out to the plane and asking for the papers than having a couple cars of swat showing up, and we all know any law enforcement officer can ask for those papers.

sorry this happened to the OP, but i don't think its that big a deal with the current laws. i don't agree that any LEO can ask for papers at any time but thats another thread.
Click to expand...
I do not wish to have to put up with Either scenario. If there was overwhelming evidence that some type of crime had been committed I might be inclined to go along with what you are saying.

However, just to stop a normal everyday law abiding citizen because some government entity observed some sporadic unusual behavior on a radar screen does not constitute "probable cause" to disregard anyone's CIVIL LIBERTIES!

Remember the phrase in our Declaration of Independence that refers to our rights for "LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS"? Regardless of whether it was a polite police officer coming up to question me or a full blown SWAT attack. They are both affronts upon our CIVIL LIBERTIES.

This is what we have lost since 9/11. All in the name of security! I, for one, do not value my Security over my LIBERTY! What ever happened to "GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!" Does that battle cry not ring true in America's heart and soul any more?

Of course, a topic for another thread, but perhaps it does not ring true because our students no longer learn about that part of our American History or the true meaning of "America, Sweet Land of Liberty that I love!"
 
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RVbySDI said:
...Remember the phrase in our Constitution that refers to our rights for "LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS"?
Actually, Steve, that's from the Declaration of Independence, not the US Constitution. Just correcting a common misconception, no offense intended. I appreciate your patriotic passion.
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N8RV said:
RVbySDI said:
...Remember the phrase in our Constitution that refers to our rights for "LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS"?
Actually, Steve, that's from the Declaration of Independence, not the US Constitution. Just correcting a common misconception, no offense intended. I appreciate your patriotic passion.
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Thanks for the correction. I appreciate it. I am an old History teacher so I should not be making such silly mistakes. I try to be accurate in my rants but too often my brain lets me down. :eek:
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RVbySDI said:
Thanks for the correction. I appreciate it. I am an old History teacher so I should not be making such silly mistakes. I try to be accurate in my rants but too often my brain lets me down. :eek:
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Actually, it's not your brain letting you down.

[Note: Here's where I insert an aviation-related comment to prevent political commentary from getting the thread moved or locked] :D

In the most recent AOPA Pilot magazine, Rod Machado has an interesting article entitled "The Middle-aged Brain". In it, he explains that researchers have discovered that the reason we tend to forget simple things and lose our keys is NOT because our brain cells are dying -- it's because our brains have actually become more complex, and with more neural synapses open and available for use, our brains often go wandering around "like a puppy dog unhooked from its leash."

Young'uns, on the other hand, have fewer neural paths available and can more easily focus on basic tasks without distraction.

So, Steve, don't be too hard on yourself. You're not only older and wiser, but your brain is actually TOO efficient and developed for simple tasks such as ranting.

Feel better now? :D
 
DanH said:
They already have a Big Brother rule for that.....91.215(c):

(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with ?91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC.

The underlining is mine. I'd like to know if it was added to the FAR in recent times.
Click to expand...


Oh well. My RV-3 might be 3.1 lbs lighter then, when I opt to go without the GTX327! :eek:
 
N8RV said:
... researchers have discovered that the reason we tend to forget simple things and lose our keys is NOT because our brain cells are dying -- it's because our brains have actually become more complex, and with more neural synapses open and available for use, our brains often go wandering around "like a puppy dog unhooked from its leash." ...
Feel better now? :D
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That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it!:D
 
N8RV said:
Actually, it's not your brain letting you down.

[Note: Here's where I insert an aviation-related comment to prevent political commentary from getting the thread moved or locked] :D

In the most recent AOPA Pilot magazine, Rod Machado has an interesting article entitled "The Middle-aged Brain". In it, he explains that researchers have discovered that the reason we tend to forget simple things and lose our keys is NOT because our brain cells are dying -- it's because our brains have actually become more complex, and with more neural synapses open and available for use, our brains often go wandering around "like a puppy dog unhooked from its leash."

Young'uns, on the other hand, have fewer neural paths available and can more easily focus on basic tasks without distraction.

So, Steve, don't be too hard on yourself. You're not only older and wiser, but your brain is actually TOO efficient and developed for simple tasks such as ranting.

Feel better now? :D
Click to expand...

"I drink to supress over-development of my brain."
 
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