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OSH Arrival Speeds

Clarkie

Well Known Member
OSH virgin here. Read the NOTAM a few times. Regarding speeds on the arrival... Are you vets slowing to 90 at 1800' or flying 135 at 2300?
 
OSH virgin here. Read the NOTAM a few times. Regarding speeds on the arrival... Are you vets slowing to 90 at 1800' or flying 135 at 2300?

Anyone that cannot fly their RV at the 90 arrival into OSH should stay home. The 135 is only for those aircraft that CANNOT fly 90.

The aircraft flying 135 still have to slow down to mix in with the aircraft at 90 on downwind, base, and final.

I have to go look at the OSH Stickers on my aircraft to know how many times it and I have been to AirVenture. I think the aircraft has been there 14 times but it may be 15. I have to go count the stickers to make sure.
 
Anyone that cannot fly their RV at the 90 arrival into OSH should stay home.

Uh....Just asking a simple question since I've never been and the NOTAM appears to give the option. Never said I couldn't fly an RV at 90 (especially after 25 years and 10,000 hours TT), but thanks for setting me straight. I think I'll still come and not stay at home. Geez.
 
Uh....Just asking a simple question since I've never been and the NOTAM appears to give the option. Never said I couldn't fly an RV at 90 (especially after 25 years and 10,000 hours TT), but thanks for setting me straight. I think I'll still come and not stay at home. Geez.

Tom, the old-timers did kinda beat you up on this one. ;)

Guess they have gotten a little impatient about having to address this question every year from folks who try to justify flying at the higher speed.

Enjoy the show!
 
Thanks Sam. Hope to see you there. Even looking forward to meeting the impatient old-timers. I'll bring some Metamucil for them at the RV Social or is that past their bed time? :)
 
High and fast for me. Always had conflicts with those making about 70 kts in the 90 kt zone down low. Never an issue up high. Safer, in my experience.
 
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Glad you asked

So I didn't have to....
Second time to OSH for me and I was contemplating taking the higher altitude
and higher speed.
I didn't realize it had anything to do with pilot skills or the lack of it.
Hope to meet a bunch of you there:)
 
Guess they have gotten a little impatient about having to address this question every year from folks who try to justify flying at the higher speed.

Perhaps they should not take it upon themselves to be the arrival procedure police then, and leave the answers to someone with more patience.
 
OK...let's go to the source!

Rather than simply telling folks to search the archives, I'll just point folks to the Airventure web site, under the category of "Understanding ATC at Oshkosh". The full link is:

http://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/ea...nd-tips/basics-of-visual-flight-rules-arrival

And the relevent quote is:

Altitudes & Airspeeds: VFR arrival procedure Ripon to Fisk

PLEASE COMPLY WITH THESE SPEED RESTRICTIONS. We know that some of your aircraft are capable of going much faster, and some wish they could cruise at 90 knots. These speed restrictions assist us (ATC) in delivering an orderly and manageable flow of traffic to the control tower, as well as to the volunteers on the ground that assist in your parking at the airport.

1,800' msl at 90 knots/104 mph or if unable - 2,300' msl at 135 knots/155 mph.

UNLESS SPECIFICALLY APPROVED BY ATC, DO NOT EXCEED 135 knots!

IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF UTILIZING THE 1,800' PATTERN, PLEASE DO SO.

Do not utilize the 2,300' pattern just because your aircraft is capable of flying at 135 knots. It makes it much easier for ATC to develop a sequence most aircraft are at 1,800!


There is no need to make up your own rules - they are pretty well laid out. I have never seen ATC "bust" anyone at OSH - their goal is to move traffic - even the traffic that believes the rules don't apply to them. But the rules (as arbitrary as they may be) are what keeps everyone on the same page. If you feel they don't apply to you, we'll all know where you are coming from.
 
The high pattern is NOT optional. It is reserved for those who cannot safely fly at 90 knots. That does not include RVs of any flavor.
 
Just be sure to keep an eye out for the slow classic aircraft, who could only do 90kts/104mph in a steep dive.
 
I have always taken the low road.

The only time I had an issue was when I got behind a Zenair 801. Not only couldn't he do 90 Kts, he couldn't hold altitude and was up and down. After stalling my -9 while following him, or trying to follow him, I broke off and started over.

Here is what I learned: Know your airplane, practice slow flight, practice stalls, and don't be afraid to bug out and get back in line.
 
I got behind a cub on the arrival procedure on my first trip to Oshkosh. the controller on the ground told me to step out and pass him. I was more than happy to comply. I was holding my own behind him, but slow flight at 60 knots for a long time can get the engine temps up.
 
Rather than simply telling folks to search the archives, I'll just point folks to the Airventure web site, under the category of "Understanding ATC at Oshkosh". The full link is:

http://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/ea...nd-tips/basics-of-visual-flight-rules-arrival

And the relevent quote is:

Altitudes & Airspeeds: VFR arrival procedure Ripon to Fisk

PLEASE COMPLY WITH THESE SPEED RESTRICTIONS. We know that some of your aircraft are capable of going much faster, and some wish they could cruise at 90 knots. These speed restrictions assist us (ATC) in delivering an orderly and manageable flow of traffic to the control tower, as well as to the volunteers on the ground that assist in your parking at the airport.

1,800' msl at 90 knots/104 mph or if unable - 2,300' msl at 135 knots/155 mph.

UNLESS SPECIFICALLY APPROVED BY ATC, DO NOT EXCEED 135 knots!

IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF UTILIZING THE 1,800' PATTERN, PLEASE DO SO.

Do not utilize the 2,300' pattern just because your aircraft is capable of flying at 135 knots. It makes it much easier for ATC to develop a sequence most aircraft are at 1,800!


There is no need to make up your own rules - they are pretty well laid out.


Here is an article the EAA Published
Flying In: Making Your AirVenture Experience a Safe One

Yes we built and fly EXPERIMENTAL aircraft that allows us to do some things differently. Flying into AirVenture is NOT something we should be doing differently. It is published what they want us to do.
 
Got it

Low road for me!

I was thinking more of the other 2 guys than myself. You know the cub in front of you and the speedy glass guy behind me.
Reminds me of the poor guy who "followed taxi instructions" in front of a tall war bird a couple of years ago.....
I suppose there is always a way back to Ripon.
 
90kts @ 1800'. End of story.

Well, not really the end of the story. :D

On arrival one year the conga line was *slow* and the controller asked me if I could do 135. I acknowledged and he instructed me to do 135 at 2300. He also told a Bonanza behind me to do the same. I complied and went to 2300 and went over the top of a long line of aircraft going about 70kts. There was a gorgeous little Aeronca L3 slowing up the line.

So the point is, yeah, do the 90kt approach, but there may be some circumstances where the fine OSH controllers will ask you to do the 135kts approach.
 
I was pretty much disgusted with fellow aviators when I flew in to OSH for the first time last year. It's like nobody could be bothered reading the NOTAM or didn't know where to find their airspeed indicator/altimeter on their panel.

The goal, as others have said, is 90 kts/1800'. But I recommend practicing very slow flight, and also executing a quick left turn to get out of the line, and start the approach over again, hoping you get in with a better crowd. :*)
 
Frankly, I'd be a bit nervous about flying the high approach. The funky part starts near the runway, descending into the stream of aircraft below. You can't see under your nose very well, and the aircraft below will not see you, as you're overtaking from behind...a blind descent into a path guaranteed to be populated with airplanes. No problem if you don't mind betting your ach on the controller's spotter, but....
 
I agree with Dan. That's one of the only times I don't mind being low and slow. Just practice, practice and practice before you get in line.

And it has to be said... The FISK approach starts AT RIPON not between RIPON and FISK. Don't slow and descend after RIPON.
 
And it has to be said... The FISK approach starts AT RIPON not between RIPON and FISK. Don't slow and descend after RIPON.

The best reminder yet! And the procedures tell you just what to do if you can't stay behind that Cub, break out and pick another spot. What, you don't like to fly a couple more minutes?

We too have had ATC direct us otherwise, and that's just fine - they are the ones calling the shots. A couple of years ago, we (Louise and I in a two-ship) arrived very early, and there was no traffic. We went to extended trail (0.5 miles) at RIPON,and when we got to FISK, the controllers asked Louise "is that RV behind you with you?" She said yes, and he said "well have him catch up and you can go in together!" ;)
 
Early Bird

You could go really early...like The Mockingbird & have the whole airport to yourself...:p

I agree, Jerry. I've flown into AirVenture maybe seven times and the last two times I have arrived at RIPON just after 7:00 AM. Not a single airplane besides me all the way to touchdown at KOSH. For me, I wouldn't plan to arrive at any other time of day. :)
 
Its an interesting bit of human nature this annual re-occuring thread. In no way am I disparaging or discouraging anyone from asking but I wonder what it is that makes some so quick to ask and others who would rather die from eyestrain from reading everything available before admitting they can't figure this out on their own.

I fall in the latter and find I'm always loath to ask for help and will read something (like the NOTAM) 100 times until I understand exactly what I am going to do. I actually admire those on here who seemingly have no compunction on asking anything with no fear of ridicule, etc. That they sometimes do says more about those doing it in any event, methinks.

No right answer and just illustrative that it takes all kinds. As long as everyone gets on the same page before arriving at RIPON and does the expected rather than like the guy I saw in a Biplane passing me doing my 90 kts at easily 135 above me last year. Now it was a smaller biplane but you can't tell me that thing can't do 90 all day with your eyes closed.

So I've resigned that there will be differences and I've had my time saved more than once by someone asking a question I was busily researching but was too proud, stubborn, or whatever to ask. I'm too old to change so I've resigned to my fate. I'll even pull out the NOTAM one more time before launching just to make sure I haven't forgotten anything and to jot down the frequencies….

Of course if ATC tells me to climb and blow past somebody I'm rocking my wings and ramming in the throttle...
 
There's nothing like actually flying into Oshkosh to fully understand flying into Oshkosh, so I would consider asking someone who's done it to be proper flight planning. The original poster had indicated he HAD read NOTAM several times. He was inquiring about the choice of the faster, higher route vs. the lower one.

My takeaway from actually doing this last year was "it's amazing there aren't midairs out between Ripon and Fisk."

It's a challenge to be sure. And the last thing I want near me is someone who was too proud to ask a question about doing it properly.
 
Practical tip, from the cooling experiment files.....

Constant speed prop? If 90 knots is giving you an oil temperature problem, try pulling the RPM way back, like 2000 or less.
 
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I agree-

The important thing is not to stop questioning."
-- Albert Einstein

And I will add that if you want to witness some really poor aviating, communicating (you're not supposed to), and navigating, fly into OSH!

There are ALLOT of good pilots flying the NOTAM, but it is always the few who obviously have not read the NOTAM, and haven't flown since last July that stand out and make you wonder how they survive.

Last years favorite: a guy on short final to 09 when everyone is landing 27, and it's BUSY. Outstanding job by the controllers getting the guy turned around.
 
2014 will be my wife's turn to fly into OSH (we alternate years), and it will also be her first time in the -8A.

We have found a small airport (Kenedy, TX) with a RIGHT hand pattern for her to practice on. We fly a lot, but often go half a year between landing on airports with a right-hand pattern, so we like to practice a bit before going "live" in the (occasionally uber-busy) Rwy 27 pattern at OSH.

(Admittedly, this I something of a throwback to our side-by-side aircraft years. A right hand pattern in the tandem-seat -8 is really no different, but still...)

We also practice holding 90 knots at various power configurations. It really is simple, but it's not something we do regularly. So, a bit of practice never hurts.

OSH is no place for freelancers. Follow the NOTAM, and it's simple. Get behind someone who doesn't know what to do, and it can get very interesting.

This will be #32 for us. See y'all there!
 
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Practical tip, from the cooling experiment files.....

Constant speed prop? If 90 knots is giving you an oil temperature problem, try pulling the RPM way back, like 2000 or less.

Interesting... I haven't done that in a long time. I think I'll go out and tinker with that (here at home). Standard airshow rules apply: "Don't intentionally do anything here that you haven't already done before in practice."
 
I think it's worth asking how I'd feel if I was 'in that position'.

Most of us know what it's uncomfortable trying to follow a Cub/Taylorcraft type going 70 kts (still relatively safe in an RV). Now, think about what it will be like for the guy(s) in the Baron/twin turbine type(s) that might be behind you when you slow to landing speed in an RV. They'll either be auger-ing in, or chewing up your elevator on rollout.

FWIW,

Charlie
 
A little off topic, but I think the speed limit horse is dead for this year...

I've flown in once (@90/1800), and I remember the ground handlers and ATC trying to get everyone off the runway (27) and onto the grass ASAP. That year (2011) the grass was rutted and soupy... really marginal for the standard wheelpants on the -8. The wheelpants on my Hiperbipe would have been torn off in those conditions, and my Rocket will be similar.

For those of us without tundra tires, how do you ensure you can stay on relatively firm ground when you arrive?
 
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2014 will be my wife's turn to fly into OSH (we alternate years), and it will also be her first time in the -8A.

We have found a small airport (Kenedy, TX) with a RIGHT hand pattern for her to practice on. We fly a lot, but often go half a year between landing on airports with a right-hand pattern, so we like to practice a bit before going "live" in the (occasionally uber-busy) Rwy 27 pattern at OSH.

(Admittedly, this I something of a throwback to our side-by-side aircraft years. A right hand pattern in the tandem-seat -8 is really no different, but still...)

We also practice holding 90 knots at various power configurations. It really is simple, but it's not something we do regularly. So, a bit of practice never hurts.

OSH is no place for freelancers. Follow the NOTAM, and it's simple. Get behind someone who doesn't know what to do, and it can get very interesting.

This will be #32 for us. See y'all there!



I would also do downwind landings to 10 knots.
Left and right and close in.
My .02
Boomer
 
2014 will be my wife's turn to fly into OSH (we alternate years), and it will also be her first time in the -8A.

We have found a small airport (Kenedy, TX) with a RIGHT hand pattern for her to practice on. We fly a lot, but often go half a year between landing on airports with a right-hand pattern, so we like to practice a bit before going "live" in the (occasionally uber-busy) Rwy 27 pattern at OSH.

(Admittedly, this I something of a throwback to our side-by-side aircraft years. A right hand pattern in the tandem-seat -8 is really no different, but still...)

We also practice holding 90 knots at various power configurations. It really is simple, but it's not something we do regularly. So, a bit of practice never hurts.

OSH is no place for freelancers. Follow the NOTAM, and it's simple. Get behind someone who doesn't know what to do, and it can get very interesting.

This will be #32 for us. See y'all there!

Ahh Yes... 2R9, That is at my ranch and its fun... a LOT of military trainers that like to play. :D
 
Watch for config changes at Ripon!

I was surprised when the Cardinal RG I was following lowered his gear at Ripon. With the gear and CS prop, boy did he slow down RIGHT NOW! A FP FG RV-9 doesn't slow down that fast.

A little wiggle-waggle and an immediate throttle pull / yank (and some formation flying experience) kept me safely behind him, but just be aware of what is changing up ahead that may affect your condition rather quickly.
 
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We also practice holding 90 knots at various power configurations. It really is simple, but it's not something we do regularly. So, a bit of practice never hurts.

I would recommend practice at 70 knots also. You never know who you will be behind.
 
Speed

Between Ripon and the airport 1800' msl puts you approximately 800-1000' AGL. Do you really want to hang on the edge of a stall trying to follow a Cub, which cruises 70 statute-not 70 knots. Or a Pietenpol which may be considerably slower than a Cub.
How good are your spin recovery techniques?? Can you spin from 800 feet AGL and recover??
The Ripon procedure is a badly flawed procedure. There should be a separate procedure for aircraft that cannot maintain 90 knots.
 
Between Ripon and the airport 1800' msl puts you approximately 800-1000' AGL. Do you really want to hang on the edge of a stall trying to follow a Cub, which cruises 70 statute-not 70 knots. Or a Pietenpol which may be considerably slower than a Cub.
How good are your spin recovery techniques?? Can you spin from 800 feet AGL and recover??
The Ripon procedure is a badly flawed procedure. There should be a separate procedure for aircraft that cannot maintain 90 knots.

The Ultralights have their own procedures.

All the RVs that have a pilot worthy of his pilot certificate can safely fly from Ripon to OSH at 70 KIAS. 90 KIAS as recommended in the NOTAM has been the SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) at AirVenture Oshkosh for more than 15-years. The only stall or spins I know about have been fast glass when they get to the runway. I am not aware of any RV pilot having control issues with the speed of 90 KIAS for arrival at OSH AirVenture. Any RV pilot that is scared to fly 90 KIAS on the recommend NOTAM approach, needs to fly with an instructor until comfortable. You should have accomplished this at your last Flight Review.

The small number of aircraft that cannot do 90 KIAS on the recommended approach does not justify making a separate procedure for them. There are so few of them, it is not worth me doing any planning other than to remember that I turn out to the LEFT and go back to Ripon and start over.
 
So few of them? Have you ever walked through Antique/ Classic? There are hundreds of them, and just one can screw up dozens of others on the approach.

I gotta disagree with you on this one Gary. This is one area where the procedure could be improved.
 
The Ultralights have their own procedures.

All the RVs that have a pilot worthy of his pilot certificate can safely fly from Ripon to OSH at 70 KIAS. 90 KIAS as recommended in the NOTAM has been the SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) at AirVenture Oshkosh for more than 15-years. The only stall or spins I know about have been fast glass when they get to the runway. I am not aware of any RV pilot having control issues with the speed of 90 KIAS for arrival at OSH AirVenture. Any RV pilot that is scared to fly 90 KIAS on the recommend NOTAM approach, needs to fly with an instructor until comfortable. You should have accomplished this at your last Flight Review.

The small number of aircraft that cannot do 90 KIAS on the recommended approach does not justify making a separate procedure for them. There are so few of them, it is not worth me doing any planning other than to remember that I turn out to the LEFT and go back to Ripon and start over.

+1. Followed Cubs and Mites more than once.
 
Couple of stats to ponder.

Searching the NTSB database for Oshkosh, WI, fatalities, and specifically related to the Oshkosh fly in, I found this:

From 1982 through 2008 - there were 5 approach to landing phase events (stall spins), 4 airshow events, 3 ground collision events, 2 loss of control (flying) events, 1 pilot incapacitation, 1 structural failure for 16 total events

There were zero mid air collisions not related to the airshow (I found one air show mid-air in 1982).

The aircraft involved with the approach to landing/stall spin events were:

Lancair, Europa, Giles 202, Glasair and White Lightning (2008, 2006, 2001, 2001 & 1990).

There may be others, but this is what I found with my quick search as described above. Interesting that there are no fatal accidents (tagged to Oshkosh, WI and the fly in) that showed since 2008!
 
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There were zero mid air collisions not related to the airshow (I found one air show mid-air in 1982)....Interesting that there are no fatal accidents (tagged to Oshkosh, WI and the fly in) that showed since 2008!

Guess that demonstrates that the NOTAM procedure followed by the vast majority of pilots works! All the more reason to do it as the NOTAM and other FAA guidance tells us to fly. Let's keep up the great record and avoid "rolling our own" approaches!
 
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A little more thought... The high wing loading planes have a higher prevalence of stall-spin. But it's not a run away with 2/5 events involving moderate wing loaded Europa and Giles 202.

No mid airs. That is amazing to me. All the anxiety I hear about the arrival. Incident-wise, this is working. Mid airs are not a problem.

Didn't look in detail, but my feeling is most of these stall-spins happened at the immediate airport vicinity. Involving switching runways, being pushed back and slowed by slow/early landers ahead, etc.

With my cfi hat on, I might suggest more than simple slow flight practice, but maneuvering as if switching runways (L&R). Target landing at a particular spot, then extending your touchdown to another place 500-1000' down the runway.

Seems to me flying slower than accustomed (or allowable for the plane) with heading changes is where the risk is located and where the discussions need to occur.
 
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My proudest moment flying into OSH last year (for the first time) was the decision to get out of the line to Fisk that was developing into disaster and try again.

I did the same thing last year as well. About 6-8 RV's right in front of me as a group and a couple of slow planes in front of them was causing a back up. I just did a really big left turn and as luck would have it only one plane behind me with nice big gap behind him.

By the way, the plane behind me was a light twin and I passed him about 15 miles before that.:D Easy after that. The coolest thing was a P-51 cross my path landing 36L and I was on base for 36R, although plenty of spacing. Felt like I was in a dog fight for a minute.:D
 
Concerning the claim of "no" mid airs... I thought someone's tire caught someone else's prop not that long ago. No crash, IIRC, but still a mid air.

And of course the two Mustangs got tangled up on short final.
 
Concerning the claim of "no" mid airs... I thought someone's tire caught someone else's prop not that long ago. No crash, IIRC, but still a mid air.

And of course the two Mustangs got tangled up on short final.

Read my post. I only searched fatalities. Regarding the P-51s, they were on the runway. I didn't count them as mid air.
 
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