Van's Air Force
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Overhead Approach / Break
- Thread starter Webb
- Start date
Basically. It is entirely lead's responsibility to blend the formation in with whatever traffic there is. This involves monitoring/reporting on CTAF, and eyeballs on full alert. He/she will decide where to break (over the numbers, middle of runway, departure end, etc) based on where the formation will best fit into the traffic. A typical break is on a 2 second interval, lead first followed in sequence by the wingmen from echelon formation (not fingertip). Each will make a crisp roll to a 2g level turn to downwind. Done properly that will generate a 6 second spacing on downwind, which is maintained all the way to the runway (in fact, to turning OFF the runway if possible). 4 ships at 6 seconds take less than 20 seconds of "space" (plus buffers ahead and behind, of course). The idea is to NOT interfere with other traffic at all, much less have them orbit somewhere else.
Entering the pattern
I was out for a short flight tonight, I was having fun flying the overhead approach and calling it on CTAF.
I started thinking.
On a towered field, the controller will give you instructions for pattern entry or grant/deny your request. Case closed here.
However, on a non-towered field, you will be entering the upwind at pattern altitude. Granted the upwind is over the runway but any planes on base or final will be below you. Call the break where you get proper spacing and join the pattern.
As I ran my last approach tonight, a Bonanza was coming in on a RNAV and was on a 5 mile final. After comparing the 2 approaches, his and mine, I consider the overhead much safer than a long final.
I cross base on the upwind at pattern altitude, the Bonanza crossed base on final at the same altitude that a plane in the pattern turns from base to final. To me, the Bonanza is at much more risk than I am for a mid-air due to less verticle seperation. To his credit, his radio work was excellent so there was no question as to his position should anyone be in the pattern. However, it may not always be the case.
I was out for a short flight tonight, I was having fun flying the overhead approach and calling it on CTAF.
I started thinking.
On a towered field, the controller will give you instructions for pattern entry or grant/deny your request. Case closed here.
However, on a non-towered field, you will be entering the upwind at pattern altitude. Granted the upwind is over the runway but any planes on base or final will be below you. Call the break where you get proper spacing and join the pattern.
As I ran my last approach tonight, a Bonanza was coming in on a RNAV and was on a 5 mile final. After comparing the 2 approaches, his and mine, I consider the overhead much safer than a long final.
I cross base on the upwind at pattern altitude, the Bonanza crossed base on final at the same altitude that a plane in the pattern turns from base to final. To me, the Bonanza is at much more risk than I am for a mid-air due to less verticle seperation. To his credit, his radio work was excellent so there was no question as to his position should anyone be in the pattern. However, it may not always be the case.
Top_prop
Well Known Member
I won't do it at a non towered civil field... but its got nothing to do with the number of traffic in the pattern... its to keep up good safe relations with the tax payers.
The only problem with blending into an existing pattern with the overhead (break) is establishing who is number one for the crosswind... In reality it is who ever called it first (between the traffic in upwind portion of the overhead and the traffic in the upwind portion of the traffic pattern)... if no existing traffic is in the upwind for the pattern, the break traffic just takes interval on the down wind traffic and breaks to follow... doesn't matter if that guy has no one infront of him or 5... I break to follow him.
I'm telling you the overhead is simple and effective. We use it with 0 to 6+ aircraft in the pattern all the time with the most junior pilots!
We teach it to students first in the .mil... then we try to explain to them the 'civil' box pattern after they've learned how to fly on instruments!... which usually results in a helmet fire the first couple of times they try to enter the pattern (even with most of them getting about 20hrs in light civil before flying .mil trainers)...
Its just plain easier flying to a 3 mile initial than trying to fingure out a 45 to down wind and not cut some one off when there is traffic in the pattern.
But if you haven't been exposed to the overhead/break, nor understand the simplicity behind it, its not for you.
Don't fault those of us who understand the overhead, love it, and use it...
Top_prop
Well Known Member
This thread has got me fired up!
I'll take your survey... over 1500hrs of instruction given in high performance complex aircraft to first time pilots...
1. As a flight instructor, have you taught the overhead to
-> a. Primary Students
2. As a Student at any level, has an instructor included the Overhead Approach as part of your training (without your prompting him/her to do so)?
-> It was the first thing I learned as well. civil box pattern didn't come until I was in intermediate flight training.
3. If you are ever to be named as a contributing or proximate cause of an aircraft accident as a result of using an overhead approach in an uncontrolled environment, would you be willing to share this survey information with
a. Your insurance carrier
-> the tax payers insure me
b. An accident or FAA investigator
-> my skipper talks to them... they never get my name
c. An attorney
-> the tax payers get me a JAG if i need one... he does the talking to any attorneys
4. If you are part of a formation flight entering a non-tower enviroment for an overhead approach, how much of your attention was devoted to observing other traffic in and out of the pattern, and how much was devoted to holding close flight position?
->I'm frequently the division leader flying -3 with lead and -2 being Student Solo's with less than 50 hrs total time... I may or may not have ever flown with them prior to this flight. The student solo's lead us into the over head every time (though at a field with a tower typically manned also by controllers in training)... I'm probably one of the few who have to not only hold tight parade postion but also double check the leader's interval decision to break the flight as I'm ultimately responsible for the conduct of the division...
Again this stuff is done every day down here. Its not magic... and when you consider the break traffic enters at +300' more than the traffic in the pattern its a garanteed separation situation until you actually start the break manuever... its only scarry if you let it be.
Edit to add: I appollogize... between the holidays, weather and now ground school this week I haven't been flying much... it makes me grouchy!
I'll take your survey... over 1500hrs of instruction given in high performance complex aircraft to first time pilots...
1. As a flight instructor, have you taught the overhead to
-> a. Primary Students
2. As a Student at any level, has an instructor included the Overhead Approach as part of your training (without your prompting him/her to do so)?
-> It was the first thing I learned as well. civil box pattern didn't come until I was in intermediate flight training.
3. If you are ever to be named as a contributing or proximate cause of an aircraft accident as a result of using an overhead approach in an uncontrolled environment, would you be willing to share this survey information with
a. Your insurance carrier
-> the tax payers insure me
b. An accident or FAA investigator
-> my skipper talks to them... they never get my name
c. An attorney
-> the tax payers get me a JAG if i need one... he does the talking to any attorneys
4. If you are part of a formation flight entering a non-tower enviroment for an overhead approach, how much of your attention was devoted to observing other traffic in and out of the pattern, and how much was devoted to holding close flight position?
->I'm frequently the division leader flying -3 with lead and -2 being Student Solo's with less than 50 hrs total time... I may or may not have ever flown with them prior to this flight. The student solo's lead us into the over head every time (though at a field with a tower typically manned also by controllers in training
)... I'm probably one of the few who have to not only hold tight parade postion but also double check the leader's interval decision to break the flight as I'm ultimately responsible for the conduct of the division...Again this stuff is done every day down here. Its not magic... and when you consider the break traffic enters at +300' more than the traffic in the pattern its a garanteed separation situation until you actually start the break manuever... its only scarry if you let it be.
Edit to add: I appollogize... between the holidays, weather and now ground school this week I haven't been flying much... it makes me grouchy!
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L.Adamson
Well Known Member
Again this stuff is done every day down here. Its not magic... and when you consider the break traffic enters at +300' more than the traffic in the pattern its a garanteed separation situation until you actually start the break manuever... its only scarry if you let it be.
I think that somebody's trying to make this a "macho" thing..................like taildraggers.
However, like taildraggers, the overhead isn't always "practical"..
L.Adamson --- under the non-towered pattern and Class B too.
the_other_dougreeves
Well Known Member
Interesting. No regional approach, then? KADS regional approach will sequence people well outside the Class D - the difference in approach airspeeds we normally get would make the break counter-productive. We do occasionally have both right and left traffic for the same runway - pistons on one side, turbines on the other.
TODR
Curious, what DO they call it- what does the tower say when they give that instruction?
No regional approach at DVT
DVT is under the Phoenix Class Bravo. Runway is 1475, floor of the Bravo is 6000. So no regional TRACON is required, nor available unless IFR. It has 2 parallel runways and already uses both sides. Obviously Phx TRACON will handle IFR inbounds, but otherwise its a call the tower for clearance kind of place. With several large flight schools on the field and over a 1000 based planes its a very busy place, usually one of the top two busiest GA airports in the nation and IIRC once in a while it is the busiest GA airport in the nation.
DVT is under the Phoenix Class Bravo. Runway is 1475, floor of the Bravo is 6000. So no regional TRACON is required, nor available unless IFR. It has 2 parallel runways and already uses both sides. Obviously Phx TRACON will handle IFR inbounds, but otherwise its a call the tower for clearance kind of place. With several large flight schools on the field and over a 1000 based planes its a very busy place, usually one of the top two busiest GA airports in the nation and IIRC once in a while it is the busiest GA airport in the nation.
Respectfully disagree
Two small things here, I have never found my taildragger to be impractical, nor do I think doing an overhead approach is macho.
If you have situational awareness like you should always have, then you can safely blend different types of approaches.
I think folks are building huge mountains out of tiny molehills here.
I think that somebody's trying to make this a "macho" thing..................like taildraggers.
However, like taildraggers, the overhead isn't always "practical"..
L.Adamson --- under the non-towered pattern and Class B too.
Two small things here, I have never found my taildragger to be impractical, nor do I think doing an overhead approach is macho.
If you have situational awareness like you should always have, then you can safely blend different types of approaches.
I think folks are building huge mountains out of tiny molehills here.
Ron Lee
Well Known Member
I just read this in the notes about Pueblo airport. They train USAF pilots there. That program started not too long ago. I have yet to fly there during M-F since this started.
http://airnav.com/airport/KPUB
HIGH VOLUME TRNG DA-20 ACFT SR-SS MON-FRI. OVERHEAD PATTERN DURG TRNG.
http://airnav.com/airport/KPUB
HIGH VOLUME TRNG DA-20 ACFT SR-SS MON-FRI. OVERHEAD PATTERN DURG TRNG.
the_other_dougreeves
Well Known Member
FWIW, here are total 2007 operations for a few GA airports:
DVT - 378,349
VNY - 374,464
TEB - 201,236
SDL - 192,161
PIE - 187,978
BJC - 164,602
ADS - 136,128
SDL is the busiest single-runway GA airport I could find, with ADS a distant second.
TODR
DVT - 378,349
VNY - 374,464
TEB - 201,236
SDL - 192,161
PIE - 187,978
BJC - 164,602
ADS - 136,128
SDL is the busiest single-runway GA airport I could find, with ADS a distant second.
TODR
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Overhead breaks, hummm. I was never taught that in training. What I was taught was to fly overhead, circle the field for a sock check at 1000 over pattern altitude. Now with that knowledge. Lets say your coming into a field, in formation or solo. For some reason you or the other airplane that may be doing a sock check, doesn't seem to coordinate your overhead. You see what could happen. I know I'm no longer a student pilot or a fresh pilot. But if I go into a NEW airport, guess what I'm going to do, you got it, the sock check. It gives me a good perspective of ground ops and lets me get my self in order for what the traffic is. Lets also put in it that maybe the pilot doing a sock check is a new pilot or at least new to the area doesn't have his radio set up right, than what. What if instead of doing the 1000ft over TPA he decides to do 500TPA. I know if I were going into an airport and it's got a traffic pattern that everybody is using on lets say east side of the field and I'm coming in from the west, guess what I'm going to do. Yup fly over mid field and enter in on the east side. THe overhead CAN cause problems for the standard pilot. Why? because thay don't know what it is. Be careful out there.
Not the point, I like to overfly the airfield to get the feel for the airport and get my bearings. You can't get that on the ATis. I have 1200 hrs. No matter, I hate just buzzing into an unknown airfield. And yes I get everything known on the new airfield, but there isn't anything like overflying to see something not noted, get your bearings, try to figure out all that's going on ground and air before commiting to landing. Towered airports are different, you have a controller to talk to.
Ron Lee
Well Known Member
Different strokes. I fly to many unfamiliar airports and don't overfly the airfield. Of course I do have a Flight Guide to provide airport layout. Your way does provide useful info prior to entering the pattern.
Of course your concern should be alleviated if everyone talks on the radio.
Of course your concern should be alleviated if everyone talks on the radio.
the_other_dougreeves
Well Known Member
How about doing both and overflying mid-field at 700' to 1000' above pattern? That allows you to see the sock and the airport layout.
TODR
TODR
KSDL is 192K
Doug,
I always heard Scottsdale AZ (KSDL) was the busiest single runway operation in the US. Not sure if its true, but they did have 192,161 operations for 2007. And it hosts a high percentage of kerosene burners. It can be kind of a PITA to get into.
Doug,
I always heard Scottsdale AZ (KSDL) was the busiest single runway operation in the US. Not sure if its true, but they did have 192,161 operations for 2007. And it hosts a high percentage of kerosene burners. It can be kind of a PITA to get into.
usually one pass is all it takes, but if someone needs to orbit overhead at 700 to 1000 above pattern IS normal practice. Oh another thing about the ATIS, have you ever had the system be wrong. I have, last time I flew, it was reporting 3mph on runway 01. I did a flyover mid field to enter in from the east and guess what, the sock was almost straight out for 19. Yes they can be wrong.
alpinelakespilot2000
Well Known Member
I'm with Steve on this one. Many airports don't have ATIS/AWOS etc. and they can be wrong. Overflying was a basic procedure I was taught as well. My Flight Examiner even required me to demonstrate competence in it for my private ticket.
BTW, Steve, is that CDA you're talking about? I always overflew that when coming from the west if I wanted 01/19.
grantcarruthers
Well Known Member
Anybody have a big fork to stick in this thread???
I didn't think were due for the annual "overhead break" recurrent thread until March??
I didn't think were due for the annual "overhead break" recurrent thread until March??
Low n Slow
Well Known Member
Never?!? I find that amazing. I only have approx 1000 hours, but I've had to do a wind check many more times than I can remember.
I fly into non-tower fileds all the time and many don't have AWOS, unicoms or traffic.
The Overhead
For those who enjoy the overhead approach what entry speed have you found to work the best and what AOB?
I'm fiddling around with speed/AOB combo which when the break is made at the numbers I can keep one continuous turn in until short final. Because I have a FP prop this plane doesn't like to slow down at all so I need to load her up in the break to bleed off all that energy otherwise I find myself needing to roll out on a downwind while slowing down enough to get the flaps deployed.
Today at the break: 175MPH, 2.2g pull put me in a good spot at the 180 but still too fast to continue through the 90 so needed to extend. If I load up more at the first part of the break I'll be too tight.
Maybe I should extend the break till midfield?
What works for you?
For those who enjoy the overhead approach what entry speed have you found to work the best and what AOB?
I'm fiddling around with speed/AOB combo which when the break is made at the numbers I can keep one continuous turn in until short final. Because I have a FP prop this plane doesn't like to slow down at all so I need to load her up in the break to bleed off all that energy otherwise I find myself needing to roll out on a downwind while slowing down enough to get the flaps deployed.
Today at the break: 175MPH, 2.2g pull put me in a good spot at the 180 but still too fast to continue through the 90 so needed to extend. If I load up more at the first part of the break I'll be too tight.
Maybe I should extend the break till midfield?
What works for you?
Sweeeet topic....
Different a/c I know, but I've executed more than my fair share of SHB's in the carrier and I imagine the aerodynamic principles are similar.
Bring the heat to the break (the faster the easier so bring it), ease the power to idle and start to load up the G through 90 degree's of turn, then square the turn at the 180. That G loading right there is where you'll bleed the most speed, plus it'll displace you to a proper distance from centerline to keep the turn in for the remaining 180 degrees. If you're still too fast, ease the turn but keep the bank in and wrap up the 135 to 45 and bleed some more. You can ease the G at the 180 but keep the angle of bank in so that it remains one continuous turn. Nothing ruins a good break more than rolling wings level! If you try and rip into the G right at the break you'll be wrapped up, high and fast on final. Also the faster you go, the earlier you need to break. Rip it off just prior to the numbers and you'll keep a continuous turn in until short final, and have a nice 15 second groove. So far it's worked for me in half a dozen different a/c from 200-600 knots, YMMV!
Different a/c I know, but I've executed more than my fair share of SHB's in the carrier and I imagine the aerodynamic principles are similar.
Bring the heat to the break (the faster the easier so bring it), ease the power to idle and start to load up the G through 90 degree's of turn, then square the turn at the 180. That G loading right there is where you'll bleed the most speed, plus it'll displace you to a proper distance from centerline to keep the turn in for the remaining 180 degrees. If you're still too fast, ease the turn but keep the bank in and wrap up the 135 to 45 and bleed some more. You can ease the G at the 180 but keep the angle of bank in so that it remains one continuous turn. Nothing ruins a good break more than rolling wings level! If you try and rip into the G right at the break you'll be wrapped up, high and fast on final. Also the faster you go, the earlier you need to break. Rip it off just prior to the numbers and you'll keep a continuous turn in until short final, and have a nice 15 second groove. So far it's worked for me in half a dozen different a/c from 200-600 knots, YMMV!
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...then square the turn at the 180. That G loading right there is where you'll bleed the most speed, plus it'll displace you to a proper distance from centerline to keep the turn in for the remaining 180 degrees. If you're still too fast, ease the turn but keep the bank in and wrap up the 135 to 45 and bleed some more. You can ease the G at the 180 but keep the angle of bank in so that it remains one continuous turn. Nothing ruins a good break more than rolling wings level! If you try and rip into the G right at the break you'll be wrapped up, high and fast on final. Also the faster you go, the earlier you need to break. Rip it off just prior to the numbers and you'll keep a continuous turn in until short final, and have a nice 15 second groove.
HUH?
HUH?
Don Patrick
Well Known Member
RVADMIRER
Here's what it looks like in Crazy horse at around 5:48...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaVGIISlPsI
Here's what it looks like in Crazy horse at around 5:48...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaVGIISlPsI
rvmills
Well Known Member
...then square the turn at the 180. That G loading right there is where you'll bleed the most speed, plus it'll displace you to a proper distance from centerline to keep the turn in for the remaining 180 degrees. If you're still too fast, ease the turn but keep the bank in and wrap up the 135 to 45 and bleed some more. You can ease the G at the 180 but keep the angle of bank in so that it remains one continuous turn. Nothing ruins a good break more than rolling wings level! If you try and rip into the G right at the break you'll be wrapped up, high and fast on final. Also the faster you go, the earlier you need to break. Rip it off just prior to the numbers and you'll keep a continuous turn in until short final, and have a nice 15 second groove.
HUH?
Sig (is that your call sign?),
Correct me if I'm wrong in my translation of the quote above that confused David (and no face shot, but I had to read it a couple times too, and I'm a squid...even an LSO
)I think you're using 180, 135 and 45 in this case to describe the break turn to downwind...right? I had to ponder that, as that normally applies to the approach turn (abeam, base and final). Well at least to a kool-aid drinkin', forked-tongue paddles, right!
What you're describing is rolling into the break, and pulling like a big dog to bleed energy like a stuck pig for the first half of the break turn, then floating it a bit (with bank still in) to get the desired abeam distance, then re-applying the g to finish the break turn to the downwind heading, thus scrubbing a little more speed in the latter part of the turn...right?Sounds like it might work, but should be a briefing item if its more than single ship.
Unless you mean to wrap it up at the 135 and the 45 of the approach turn...but that seems a pretty unstable approach method.
For Ken, who I know did breaks in Primary at P-cola, its a good question. There probably is a perfect speed to use to break at the numbers, use a 2g (or so) pull and wind up at the perfect abeam distance at the 180 (abeam the numbers) and then continue a continuous turn to final. But it'll be a lot slower than 175, as you have seen.
The FFI standard training speed is 130kts, and I will tell ya that you roll out downwind just about right (at 2 gs), and very close to Vfe. Works pretty well for recovering a flight, and you could do it at the numbers.
Would be interested in thoughts from Team RV and Falcon Flight guys that are doing this in an airshow environment, with respect to speeds and g in the break that looks great to the crowd.
I fly the standard in formations, but like to zorch into the break much faster when alone, or maybe in an experienced section (2-ship for the USAF bros
) but as you touched on, you need to break at midfield or the upwind numbers (field length dependent) to prevent going long in the groove (aka, fly a bomber pattern with a halaciously long final). The good news about flying farther upwind is that more folks get to see you parade on by before you break.As you have seen, if you pull max g to bleed speed, even at high speeds, you end up close abeam (Sig's technique may help with that, will have to test it), and if you float the turn, it takes a lot of distance on downwind to slow.
I guess you could also break fast at the numbers and slip all the way around the approach turn to help slow down and go down, but that beats the tail up a bit at higher speeds, IMHO.
Breaking at the fantail (numbers) is cool, but speed is fun too, and I'm enjoying putting out a little smoke while coming into the break too, so going upwind a bit and saying hi to the bros (not showboating, of course
) then doing a crisp, level break is satisfying too, even if you're wings level for a bit on downwind to slow.A continuous turn is neat, but Sig, I'd have to say that climbing or descending in the break is a bust too! Especially if there's more than one of ya!!
One last method, sometimes employed for very fast breaks at the fantail: Come at the numbers from 45 deg off, so that you have more than 180 deg of turn to the downwind. Also looks very cool...but ya need a supportive tower (or airboss), or an empty non-towered field to do it...pretty non-standard, so not a normally recommended pattern entry!
Did that help or make it worse?
One last item, don't forget the LSO shorthand given to someone that did a great Sierra Hotel break, but couldn't get aboard:
JWIB-SOB
(John Wayne In the Break - Sucked On the Ball) (S actually is the four letter word, but you get what I mean!) If you're gonna go big, gotta fly it all the way through the roll-out! (or the trap)
Ken, let us know what you develop as techniques!
Cheers,
Bob
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Busted by paddles! Can't be John Wayne in the break if you're Barney fife on the ball!!! I use a gradual pull through 90 then square it at the abeam. Yeah you can try to scrub the speed at the initial break, but if you're really hauling you'll just rate around the turn and be through the first 90 degrees of turn with no real speed loss, and have to ease to the abeam, which is why I like a steady/firm pull to the abeam, and then a squared off high g pull to really scrub off the knots. Yeah the wrapped up turn from the 135-45 (base to final) is varsity but if you still have a bag of knots, is a good tool. "Technique only"
Oh and the 45 off is cheating!!! My last airing had a rule that for the SHB upgrade you had to be wings level at the break. If you ain't cheatin.....!!!!
Oh and the 45 off is cheating!!! My last airing had a rule that for the SHB upgrade you had to be wings level at the break. If you ain't cheatin.....!!!!
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Thanks for the replies...
I understood the gist of what SIG suggested but wasn't too sure about squaring the turn at the 180???
Bob- I'll try 130 next time and see how it works out. Today I came in at 175 MPH (ok it was 197) and pulled a steady 2.0-2.5 through the 180 and needed about 10 seconds on a level downwind to Vfe and then a full slip all the way to the numbers. It worked out but I'd rather find the combo which doesn't require the roll-out and the slip to final. Its fun experimenting with techniques and I'll pass on what works when I find out.
I understood the gist of what SIG suggested but wasn't too sure about squaring the turn at the 180???
Bob- I'll try 130 next time and see how it works out. Today I came in at 175 MPH (ok it was 197) and pulled a steady 2.0-2.5 through the 180 and needed about 10 seconds on a level downwind to Vfe and then a full slip all the way to the numbers. It worked out but I'd rather find the combo which doesn't require the roll-out and the slip to final. Its fun experimenting with techniques and I'll pass on what works when I find out.
rvmills
Well Known Member
Got it Sig, in the initial part of the break turn, power to idle, arc a little (not too hard a pull, but enough to bleed a little, yet get some abeam distance) then really haul back in the last part of the break turn to bleed down (more effective there because you're below cornering speed and will bleed faster). That would also need to be briefed to a flight, so that all wingmen would use the same technique. At FFI speeds, just not required...interesting technique though. Will try that at S-6 speeds!
Still will put out a caution about yanking and banking on the approach turn...especially to an audience with no afterburners (varsity indeed...though I've seen fighters go upside down and into the drink due to unstable approaches too!)
Stable approaches are key, here and at sea! Better to be long in the groove and catch grief, than to find the edge of the envelope! Soap box off
Oh, and who said you can't be wings level and 45 deg off?!
Ken, its a compromise. I have fun with the speed, and see the same as you saw today. But its a fun challenge to make it a 360 to land too! Have fun practicing!
Cheers,
Bob
Still will put out a caution about yanking and banking on the approach turn...especially to an audience with no afterburners (varsity indeed...though I've seen fighters go upside down and into the drink due to unstable approaches too!)
Stable approaches are key, here and at sea! Better to be long in the groove and catch grief, than to find the edge of the envelope! Soap box off
Oh, and who said you can't be wings level and 45 deg off?!
Ken, its a compromise. I have fun with the speed, and see the same as you saw today. But its a fun challenge to make it a 360 to land too! Have fun practicing!
Cheers,
Bob
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Entry 200MPH, 1500ft AGL, 75 deg AOB 3g
JWIB-SOB!
Great break and nice circular pattern but just couldn't get below Vfe until I was at the touchdown point which was too fast = wave off. The problem with a 1500ft initial is it competes with the need to bleed the speed fast enough to have enough time to lose the altitude. My FP prop doesn't help either as this plane just doesn't want to slow down - which I'm mostly happy about
I'll keep playing with this....
JWIB-SOB!
Great break and nice circular pattern but just couldn't get below Vfe until I was at the touchdown point which was too fast = wave off. The problem with a 1500ft initial is it competes with the need to bleed the speed fast enough to have enough time to lose the altitude. My FP prop doesn't help either as this plane just doesn't want to slow down - which I'm mostly happy about
I'll keep playing with this....
sig has it
The most pertinent part of what Sig wrote (imho) was to "ease off the power". On my O-320 RV-4 with a F/P MT prop, I don't hit idle sometimes until the 180. It slows just fine if I do that. If I rip the power to idle real quick, it (the plane) just seems to keep sliding forward. The spinning prop must add some air brake action if I keep it turning a little... The constant speed guys don't have these issues.
As for speed, I have the smallest engined RV on the field, and the only fixed pitch, so I'm always lead. ;-) and mostly wide open.
Dm
The most pertinent part of what Sig wrote (imho) was to "ease off the power". On my O-320 RV-4 with a F/P MT prop, I don't hit idle sometimes until the 180. It slows just fine if I do that. If I rip the power to idle real quick, it (the plane) just seems to keep sliding forward. The spinning prop must add some air brake action if I keep it turning a little... The constant speed guys don't have these issues.
As for speed, I have the smallest engined RV on the field, and the only fixed pitch, so I'm always lead. ;-) and mostly wide open.
Dm
Speed of Heat
Down initial, crisp roll in the pitch over the numbers. I don't worry about the 60 degree 2 g turn but at least 45 degrees and level and constant turn all the way around to a quarter mile final. Never level the wings until on short final.. Smooth power reduction, speed bleeds, start the flaps off the perch and viola, chirp chirp..
Down initial, crisp roll in the pitch over the numbers. I don't worry about the 60 degree 2 g turn but at least 45 degrees and level and constant turn all the way around to a quarter mile final. Never level the wings until on short final.. Smooth power reduction, speed bleeds, start the flaps off the perch and viola, chirp chirp..
Ken,
1500' pattern is tough to look good in, and yes it's a lot of altitude to lose. Try the carrier!
To what I was saying about the initial pull, when over the numbers (or just prior) give a nice crisp roll to 50-60 degrees and ease into the pull, try not to hit 2 g's or so until you're through about 90 degree's. Then approaching the abeam (on downwind) that's when you give a good firm pull and load up the G's. That's what will bleed you down. You should now be through 180 degree's of turn, on downwind, with a managable abeam distance. If you still have a bag of knots, extend on down wind a little and fly yourself to a long final, however done right you should have more than enough distance to cover from abeam on down wind, to final, to bleed down to Vfe.
The big misconseption with the overhead is that it should draw a nice circle over the ground, which isn't the case. A well flown break will not be wings level until final, with an angle of bank all the way around. From the ground, guys can't tell what your angle of bank or G is... but the can tell if you roll wings level!
1500' pattern is tough to look good in, and yes it's a lot of altitude to lose. Try the carrier!
To what I was saying about the initial pull, when over the numbers (or just prior) give a nice crisp roll to 50-60 degrees and ease into the pull, try not to hit 2 g's or so until you're through about 90 degree's. Then approaching the abeam (on downwind) that's when you give a good firm pull and load up the G's. That's what will bleed you down. You should now be through 180 degree's of turn, on downwind, with a managable abeam distance. If you still have a bag of knots, extend on down wind a little and fly yourself to a long final, however done right you should have more than enough distance to cover from abeam on down wind, to final, to bleed down to Vfe.
The big misconseption with the overhead is that it should draw a nice circle over the ground, which isn't the case. A well flown break will not be wings level until final, with an angle of bank all the way around. From the ground, guys can't tell what your angle of bank or G is... but the can tell if you roll wings level!
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rvmills
Well Known Member
JWIB-SOB!
Great break and nice circular pattern but just couldn't get below Vfe until I was at the touchdown point which was too fast = wave off. The problem with a 1500ft initial is it competes with the need to bleed the speed fast enough to have enough time to lose the altitude. My FP prop doesn't help either as this plane just doesn't want to slow down - which I'm mostly happy about
I'll keep playing with this....
Ken,
Concur with the others's comments about break altitude. There will be some various opinions (which is OK, of course!) but I prefer to break at pattern altitude. IMHO, you get a better view of others in the pattern when you're looking for them on the horizon (rather than among ground clutter). If its crowded and the timing doesn't work well, you can just spin it (fly upwind out of the pattern, fly around back to the initial, and set it up again). You also don't have to worry about descending to pattern altitude from above other aircraft when out of the break turn. The added value is that you don't have the extra potential energy (altitude) to shed, which takes distance, and makes it tougher to hit the marks in the pattern.
Rog Widget, thanks...what the Ravens are doing out here too.
Fun stuff!! Keep us posted on your quest for the perfect break Ken!!
Cheers,
Bob
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Great inputs fellas thanks! Oh BTW the 1500 ft AGL at initial wasn't my idea that was courtesy of the tower here at CRG - even after I asked for 1000 instead. I'm gonna talk to them via phone after Christmas to determine what the story is here.
I'll try delaying loading up until through the first 90 degrees to see how this works out.
Thanks!
Spank
I'll try delaying loading up until through the first 90 degrees to see how this works out.
Thanks!
Spank
150mph at the break, 1000 AGL
75 deg AOB at the numbers, power slowly to idle, 1.5-1.8g initial pull to allow a descent and decel through first 90. Relaxed to about 60 deg AOB and pulled a solid 2g to maintain level decel with decreasing AOB and pull to the 180 with 115mph, 20 deg AOB decel to Vfe by the 90, normal base to final touchdown at the numbers. A 150mph entry was much more manageable for a break at the numbers starting at 1000AGL. I'd still like to develop the technique for WOT at the numbers. Working on it
75 deg AOB at the numbers, power slowly to idle, 1.5-1.8g initial pull to allow a descent and decel through first 90. Relaxed to about 60 deg AOB and pulled a solid 2g to maintain level decel with decreasing AOB and pull to the 180 with 115mph, 20 deg AOB decel to Vfe by the 90, normal base to final touchdown at the numbers. A 150mph entry was much more manageable for a break at the numbers starting at 1000AGL. I'd still like to develop the technique for WOT at the numbers. Working on it
For the benefit of some reading this who may not be FAST or FFI certified, it might be useful to point out whether you're talking about overhead breaks (done at pattern altitude) or airshow/battle breaks (what I would call an SHB, race in at 100-300' and bank/pull back up to the perch). The lower you are the more speed you'll want to get back up to your perch, all else being equal.
We use 140kt for an overhead break at 1000', which with a 2G 180 degree turn seems to put us 180 degrees the other way and somewhere right around flap speed... The -9A in the group seems to take longer to slow down and the Rocket (fixed pitch) always seems like it wants to be rear-ended it stops so quickly. I don't really look at the G-meter or airspeed during the manoeuver to confirm speeds/loads though... I'm too busy looking for lead.
I think for WOT at the numbers, you'd need to be 50' off the ground, and head for a 1000' circuit.
We use 140kt for an overhead break at 1000', which with a 2G 180 degree turn seems to put us 180 degrees the other way and somewhere right around flap speed... The -9A in the group seems to take longer to slow down and the Rocket (fixed pitch) always seems like it wants to be rear-ended it stops so quickly. I don't really look at the G-meter or airspeed during the manoeuver to confirm speeds/loads though... I'm too busy looking for lead.
I think for WOT at the numbers, you'd need to be 50' off the ground, and head for a 1000' circuit.
Screw it, I just made a drawing.
A: Haul ***, wide open throttle, high RPM on the prop for great noise on the ground (whats the point if you don't look good?)
B: Nice continuous roll to an AOB that will allow you to maintain level at < 2G's. Power to idle rolling into the turn
C: Ease your pull enough to float the turn to a proper abeam distance X. i.e. if you break at 180kts and use 1/2 mile abeam float 15 seconds or so up to
D: The "re-break" This is where the most speed is lost, still level now is where to load up the G in order to be down to a normal abeam speed, probably a little fast. Play with the G, see what works for you.
E: From the abeam to final, this is where you can play out your turn, altitude and bank angle to continue to bleed down to Vfe. Dangerous if not paying attention to coordination, airspeed, altitude. Good place to get yourself in big trouble.
F: The goal is to be 1/2 to 3/4 mile final, on approach speed, fully configured.
Play with the numbers see what works for you. The faster the break the easier it is, seriously. I've done it in an RV-6 at WOT, as well as numerous fighters up to my personal record of "something" above 500 knots. The physics and aero are the same, it's a strategic use of wing loading to manage drag, to get to a desired point in space at a certain speed/configuration. It's also a lot of fun, and done right looks good. With a formation looks better. Few things looks cooler than a properly flown four-ship fan break though, more on that later.
A: Haul ***, wide open throttle, high RPM on the prop for great noise on the ground (whats the point if you don't look good?)
B: Nice continuous roll to an AOB that will allow you to maintain level at < 2G's. Power to idle rolling into the turn
C: Ease your pull enough to float the turn to a proper abeam distance X. i.e. if you break at 180kts and use 1/2 mile abeam float 15 seconds or so up to
D: The "re-break" This is where the most speed is lost, still level now is where to load up the G in order to be down to a normal abeam speed, probably a little fast. Play with the G, see what works for you.
E: From the abeam to final, this is where you can play out your turn, altitude and bank angle to continue to bleed down to Vfe. Dangerous if not paying attention to coordination, airspeed, altitude. Good place to get yourself in big trouble.
F: The goal is to be 1/2 to 3/4 mile final, on approach speed, fully configured.
Play with the numbers see what works for you. The faster the break the easier it is, seriously. I've done it in an RV-6 at WOT, as well as numerous fighters up to my personal record of "something" above 500 knots. The physics and aero are the same, it's a strategic use of wing loading to manage drag, to get to a desired point in space at a certain speed/configuration. It's also a lot of fun, and done right looks good. With a formation looks better. Few things looks cooler than a properly flown four-ship fan break though, more on that later.
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AZtailwind
Well Known Member
Had the same issue with my tower here at FLG-Had to explain that I was practicing what all other RV's where doing- and I'm not a F-16. But thay know me now
Screw it, I just made a drawing.
A: Haul ***, wide open throttle, high RPM on the prop for great noise on the ground (whats the point if you don't look good?)
B: Nice continuous roll to an AOB that will allow you to maintain level at < 2G's. Power to idle rolling into the turn
C: Ease your pull enough to float the turn to a proper abeam distance X. i.e. if you break at 180kts and use 1/2 mile abeam float 15 seconds or so up to
D: The "re-break" This is where the most speed is lost, still level now is where to load up the G in order to be down to a normal abeam speed, probably a little fast. Play with the G, see what works for you.
E: From the abeam to final, this is where you can play out your turn, altitude and bank angle to continue to bleed down to Vfe. Dangerous if not paying attention to coordination, airspeed, altitude. Good place to get yourself in big trouble.
F: The goal is to be 1/2 to 3/4 mile final, on approach speed, fully configured.
Play with the numbers see what works for you. The faster the break the easier it is, seriously. I've done it in an RV-6 at WOT, as well as numerous fighters up to my personal record of "something" above 500 knots. The physics and aero are the same, it's a strategic use of wing loading to manage drag, to get to a desired point in space at a certain speed/configuration. It's also a lot of fun, and done right looks good. With a formation looks better. Few things looks cooler than a properly flown four-ship fan break though, more on that later.
While this may work well for you as a single-ship, if you are leading a formation it would be relatively difficult for your wingies to follow and look good. Also, many of us don't really want to close the throttle to idle quickly from full power.
Why not break (pitch out) at mid-field, where the crowd is, and use some downwind time to decelerate?
RV Supplement to the T-34 Manual
Overhead Patterns. The Overhead Pattern should start with a 3nm initial approach in a stable Echelon at traffic pattern altitude (or as directed)at 120-130 KIAS. The pitchout is as previously described except that after the Roll and Pitch, the Power is reduced to idle. Fixed pitch aircraft should pull power smartly to idle, whereas constant speed aircraft should pull the power smoothly back so as not to ?stop? in front of a fixed pitch. All aircraft should attempt to roll out at 100mph (87 kts) (flap speed)directly behind the aircraft in front at the same altitude and lower flaps immediately to help control speed. Maintain 100mph and altitude on downwind. Lead should adjust for winds and maintain altitude until turning base. Then he should reduce power as required to descend and slow to 90mph half way around base and then 80mph rolling out on final. Each member should follow lead?s flight path around base and obtain the same airspeeds.
The reference to "The pitchout as previously described" is from practice at altitude section that I am inserting below:
Pitchout (Break) at Altitude. Pitchouts are started from echelon formation. Experience has shown that RVs using 2 seconds between breaks will yield approximately 1000? spacing on downwind. Lead gives the pitchout signal followed by the fingers for seconds between breaks (normally 2). If the break will be delayed after giving the signal, lead will give a kiss off signal, then breaks. If the break will be immediate after the signal, leads rolls to 45-60? bank, then pitches using approximately 2 Gs, leaving power steady, and makes a 180? level turn. #2 looks ahead to the horizon and counts (one thousand one, one thousand two) and banks, then pitches. #3 and #4 do same in sequence. During the first part of the break, wingmen should concentrate on holding a level G turn, leaving power steady. During the second half of the turn, wingmen should look up, acquire the aircraft in front, and adjust bank and G as needed to roll out directly behind him at same altitude. After the last member rolls out there should be a straight, level line up with similar spacing and he will call ?4s In?. Wingmen should take a brief moment to look around the cockpit and switch tanks if appropriate.
My comments: We always use a 60 degree bank 2 G turn from the pitchout / break. The above is all quoted from the material that the RV pilots that set the Guinness World Record Formation flight use as their STANDARD.
Overhead Patterns. The Overhead Pattern should start with a 3nm initial approach in a stable Echelon at traffic pattern altitude (or as directed)at 120-130 KIAS. The pitchout is as previously described except that after the Roll and Pitch, the Power is reduced to idle. Fixed pitch aircraft should pull power smartly to idle, whereas constant speed aircraft should pull the power smoothly back so as not to ?stop? in front of a fixed pitch. All aircraft should attempt to roll out at 100mph (87 kts) (flap speed)directly behind the aircraft in front at the same altitude and lower flaps immediately to help control speed. Maintain 100mph and altitude on downwind. Lead should adjust for winds and maintain altitude until turning base. Then he should reduce power as required to descend and slow to 90mph half way around base and then 80mph rolling out on final. Each member should follow lead?s flight path around base and obtain the same airspeeds.
The reference to "The pitchout as previously described" is from practice at altitude section that I am inserting below:
Pitchout (Break) at Altitude. Pitchouts are started from echelon formation. Experience has shown that RVs using 2 seconds between breaks will yield approximately 1000? spacing on downwind. Lead gives the pitchout signal followed by the fingers for seconds between breaks (normally 2). If the break will be delayed after giving the signal, lead will give a kiss off signal, then breaks. If the break will be immediate after the signal, leads rolls to 45-60? bank, then pitches using approximately 2 Gs, leaving power steady, and makes a 180? level turn. #2 looks ahead to the horizon and counts (one thousand one, one thousand two) and banks, then pitches. #3 and #4 do same in sequence. During the first part of the break, wingmen should concentrate on holding a level G turn, leaving power steady. During the second half of the turn, wingmen should look up, acquire the aircraft in front, and adjust bank and G as needed to roll out directly behind him at same altitude. After the last member rolls out there should be a straight, level line up with similar spacing and he will call ?4s In?. Wingmen should take a brief moment to look around the cockpit and switch tanks if appropriate.
My comments: We always use a 60 degree bank 2 G turn from the pitchout / break. The above is all quoted from the material that the RV pilots that set the Guinness World Record Formation flight use as their STANDARD.
all great inputs so thanks!
I'm not attempting to execute the perfect formation break. What I am looking for is the best AOB/g load for a given A/S, preferably WOT that will allow a continuos turn from the break at the numbers from 1000ft AGL to short final configured for landing, on-speed. No roll-out on downwind allowed, and no power once the chop at the break..dead stick (sorta) all the way to touch-down. Thats my goal. Power is cheating and rolling out sucks. The difficulty with a FP is there is little help in decel from the prop itself so this is all energy management as SIG pointed out.
Hey...where does this reluctance to chop power to idle come from? Sounds like a wives tale to me I can understand a sudden power application but seriously a reduction going from high to low stress is bad? Hmmmm
This is a work in progress!
Spank
I'm not attempting to execute the perfect formation break. What I am looking for is the best AOB/g load for a given A/S, preferably WOT that will allow a continuos turn from the break at the numbers from 1000ft AGL to short final configured for landing, on-speed. No roll-out on downwind allowed, and no power once the chop at the break..dead stick (sorta) all the way to touch-down. Thats my goal. Power is cheating and rolling out sucks. The difficulty with a FP is there is little help in decel from the prop itself so this is all energy management as SIG pointed out.
Hey...where does this reluctance to chop power to idle come from? Sounds like a wives tale to me
I can understand a sudden power application but seriously a reduction going from high to low stress is bad? Hmmmm This is a work in progress!
Spank
Capflyer
Well Known Member
Here is some visualization. 130kt initial, 1000' AGL, level 2g break - pull power and put in flaps. Circle to land with power off or as needed for a smooth descent. http://vimeo.com/14857734
There is no constant AOB that will do this. If you start at 60 degrees then to keep the angle of bank going you will have to decrease AOB as the speed bleeds or you will not hit anywhere near the runway. I think what you will need to practice is maintaining a constant rate of turn instead of a constant angle of bank. That will just take practice.
Your are right in looking to never be wings level until you roll out on a short final, assuming you are lead ship and break at the numbers. Farther back in the formation you will have to be wings level on the downwind since you are breaking past the numbers.
Your are right in looking to never be wings level until you roll out on a short final, assuming you are lead ship and break at the numbers. Farther back in the formation you will have to be wings level on the downwind since you are breaking past the numbers.
all great inputs so thanks!
I'm not attempting to execute the perfect formation break. What I am looking for is the best AOB/g load for a given A/S, preferably WOT that will allow a continuos turn from the break at the numbers from 1000ft AGL to short final configured for landing, on-speed. No roll-out on downwind allowed, and no power once the chop at the break..dead stick (sorta) all the way to touch-down. Thats my goal. Power is cheating and rolling out sucks. The difficulty with a FP is there is little help in decel from the prop itself so this is all energy management as SIG pointed out.
Hey...where does this reluctance to chop power to idle come from? Sounds like a wives tale to me
This is a work in progress!
Spank
