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In the event of a forced landing, wood or water?

Paul Tuttle

Paul Tuttle

Well Known Member
We were having a discussion the other day regarding "what ifs" in the event of a forced landing. We fly in a rather remote area a lot of the time up here and our options would be land in the trees or land in the water. My personal thoughts are that I'm choosing the trees because they might soften the impact and I don't think I'd like to be upside down in a lake trying to get out of the plane. I hope I never have to make the decision, but it would be nice to have a bit of a pre-plan in case.

A bad scenario either way, but I'd like to hear your opinions on this.
 
I would go with the wood too

Wood too for me. In case it turn out bad in the water and you can't breath you would not live long. I am not sure landing on water with fixe gear would turn out well.

Too bad there is not much agricultural field in our area. The one in the prairies don' have to search for the answer. There is landing strip everywhere!!
 
Well having survived one forced landing in trees with nary a scratch I'd probably go for that. But they were nice skinny Carolina Pines that had a lot of give to them. Choice between a lake and some very tall hardwoods on mountainous terrain might skew the calculus.

Depending on the situation you might not have a lot of time to figure that out.

In either case its nice to know that these things stall at such a low airspeed - the key is to not have them stall before you contact the surface - whatever it is.

Biggest problem you face after landing in the trees is how to get down out of them.
 
We used to discuss the idea that getting it slowed down to just above stall over the water and then dipping in one wing might be a good strategy. The idea was to get it to come around and dissipate that energy in a circle and end up upright.

Maybe it wouldn't work. None of us had the stones to flight test it ;)
 
For those thinking agricultural fields are a good choice, I would pick the type of crop carefully - most tilled soil and low crops will grab your landing gear, very much like water.

Minimal airspeed / minimal energy is an important criteria. Proximity to rescue and assistance is another.
 
humptybump said:
For those thinking agricultural fields are a good choice, I would pick the type of crop carefully - most tilled soil and low crops will grab your landing gear, very much like water.

Minimal airspeed / minimal energy is an important criteria. Proximity to rescue and assistance is another.
Click to expand...

So this brings up another consideration. What gear type is most likely to minimize the chance of a flip over, tail or trike?
 
My dad gave me an old P-51 manual he had.. I was reading it and found it interesting that the water ditching procedure in the manual called for a full rudder deflection at the point of impact in the water.. I guess to try and spin the plane around to deflect some energy or something..hope to never try that. Those old WWII era manuals are funny.. they have cartoon charicatures and funny stuff in there - things like "try not to bail out over an area you just bombed, it might not turn out well" or something to that effect..
 
"If a crash is inevitable, hit the softest, cheapest thing available, as slowly as you can."

I do not think you can make a blanket statement about trees vs. water-------it will depend on the trees you are looking at, and the water also.

But, this mental exercise is good to help you determine what situations will dictate what actions you take should the big fan up front stop making wind.
 
Same things I was contemplating

I am in Houston area and most of my flying allows many options if forced to land. I flew West after Osh Kosh to Custer SD, Yellowstone, Johnson Creek, Park City, Denver, back to Houston. Lots of hours over back country. I'm not sure the best thing to do but figured I would stall into the trees down in a valley close to some roads if I could see one. I'm curious of other opinions.
 
Lan Vinh Do said:
The one in the prairies don' have to search for the answer. There is landing strip everywhere!!
Click to expand...

The question becomes "Corn or soybeans?" I prefer mature corn myself. Soybeans tend to grab the wheelpant/gear and flip you over.

I'm not sure how you just stall above trees or water. These aircraft start to sink pretty good as they slow down. Not sure you'll have enough energy to arrest the sink rate just prior to stall.

The other thing to remember when landing in a field is to minimize sink rate, not airspeed. It's usually the vertical stopping that is sudden and does the spine damage. Forward speed usually dissipates more slowly. (unless you hit something solid).

Great discussion. Hope I never have to do it but it's valuable to think about.
 
I recommend doing an Underwater Escape Course

One thing I can recommend, if you can find one, is to do an underwater escape training course. I did one some years back. I'm a poor swimmer and was not looking forward to it, but am glad I did it. The experience stays in your mind forever and gives you something real to base your reactions on when thinking about ditching.

On the course I did - it was a commercial one, not military - we did multiple escapes: from partly submerged but upright; submerged 45 degree inclined and submerged fully inverted. Not pleasant.

For a better idea, here's a link to the course description:
http://www.andark.co.uk/other-training/underwater-escape/huet/

They have a short video too (happens to be based around a helicopter, but that doesn't matter:
http://player.vimeo.com/video/15421851

Makes you think, doesn't it?

Steve
 
The wind

I have noticed that many forced landing discussions do not include much if any discussion of wind direction. I could chaulk that up to "because it is so obvious", except that the turn back discussions often don't include the effect of the wind either.

Before each flight, I think about the direction of the wind and the preferred direction of a forced landing. Goes something like: Self, today forced landings will be to the North or the West. By thinking this thru ahead of time, it is one less thing to think about during an emergency.

Like the old saying goes: Better to head into the wind and break ground than head into the ground and break wind :D
 
...answer may change ......often!

I've long been a proponent of water ( maybe I'm more afraid of fire!) but this has to change seasonally in most areas. Even in mid-summer, the high altitude lakes are cold. If you are wet and injured, you could succumb to exposure in short order.
Then there's the
-tip vs slider issue...real or not.
-nose vs tailwheel
-solo vs pax ( 1 ....or 3!)

the other factor is passenger egress. If they have not taken a course, or are not agile, can you guarantee the you can get them out? If I'm by myself, I'm willing to assume a different risk scenario. ( I.e. force land, even on a crappy logging road, so it's easier to haul the wreck out!)
 
+1 Underwater Escape Course

When I was younger, I used to work on offshore drilling rigs in deep ocean. We had to take courses in both escape and survival afloat. They are great courses and will 1) make you think about things before they happen and 2) give you some confidence so you don't lose as much precious energy/air to a panic situation. Having been on a rig when it caught fire (luckily didn't have to launch overboard), I can tell you that drills/training are extremely important. However, I'll add that in a real situation, training is only the first part.. Staying calm and executing according to your training is the second, and most times harder thing to do.
 
Be aware that the type of trees involved makes a big difference in survivability. In the leafy deciduous trees more common in the east, it is pretty realistic to expect to land in the forest canopy and remain stuck in the upper branches.

But in the more conical coniferous trees found out west, you will almost certainly fall straight to the ground after striking a few treetops, with little energy absorption on the way down.

Thanks, Bob K.
 
Water - do you slide the canopy open before ditching? Don't believe it would be a good idea with a dry landing.
 
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I watched an ultralight land off-airport in a bean field. It flipped instantly. I also recovered a C150 from a bean field. It flipped within 50 feet of touchdown. Funny thing is both were next to a perfectly usable roads with no traffic. Go for the roads!
 
Ditching Points to Ponder

The chances of surviving a ditching are high. Data show an approximately 88% survival rate with few/no inuries as a reult of the actual ditching. You are more likely to die after ditching by drowning, usually as a result of hypothermia and exhaustion. Water temperature and survival equipment availability play a role. A well executed water landing normally involves less deceleration violence than a poor tree landing or a touchdown on rough terrain.

For consideration, here is the emergency ditching checklist from our RV-4 handbook:

1. Harness - SECURE
2. Flaps - UP

Flaps up is recommended for ditching to preclude a nose drop in the event of an unitentional stall prior to touchdown. It can be extremely difficult to properly estimate hieght above calm water. A flaps up stall will produce better aerodynamic warning and less severe pitching moment than a flaps down stall.

3. Glide - Vref
4. Approach
-High Wind/Heavy Swell or Low Seas/Clam - INTO WIND
-Low Wind/Heavy Swell - PARALLEL
5. Canopy - JETTISON

Canopy jettison is recommended since structural damage during landing may make opening the canopy difficult or impossible after landing.

6. Touchdown - TAIL LOW Vs + 5
-Maintain sufficient airspeed to allow control to ensure a tail first landing.
If the airplane is stalled prior to touchdown, it will pitch nose first intro
the water.
7. Harness - RELEASE
8. Emergency Egress

The crew should egress as rapidly as practical as the aircraft will likely sink quickly. If the aircraft does not sink immediately, the crew should assume that it may sink rapidly at any time without warning.

Fly safe,

Vac
 
Mike S said:
this mental exercise is good to help you determine what situations will dictate what actions
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This is a very good observation.

I find myself looking for "the out" every time I cross the Chesapeake or Delaware bays. In those cases, I estimate glide distance to see if I make a sandy beach on other side. Otherwise I am looking at a water landing, in which case I am looking to parallel a tanker in the hopes of a quick rescue. They can't stop but they might be able to deploy assistance or radio the situation.

[the replies do] not include much if any discussion of wind direction
Click to expand...

As the flight attendants always say, " the closest exit may be behind you".
 
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Tree outcome is more variable

Water landing is probably the more predictable, and the statistics are promising.

With tall conifer trees, you might break a couple of trees, or big limbs, and stop in a tree or on the ground just fine. Or, the trees might stop all your forward progress and guide you straight down with little resistance. Imagine hitting the ground perpendicular to it after essentially free-falling for 75 feet. That is not not going to be survivable. So it is more of a dice-roll. Once you are at V_min over the treetops, you are a passenger.

In the water, you can touch tail first and wingtip second, get a wet ground-loop, and climb out. Canopy jettison would be very important.
 
That's a tough question, probably trees for me. The ocean doesn't like me. I would probably survive a ditching and while floating around happy I made it, get eaten one piece at a time by many sharks.

Birds
 
I live in the midwest

I have been in the beans & the corn, there is no water around us. Corn every time if you have a choice. The beans flipped me over in a hurry.
 
A fellow skydiver warned me once never to land out in a mature cornfield. Picture yourself running a gauntlet of people swinging sweatsocks with rolls of quarters in them, and that's about the bruising you'd end up with. At least in the RV you'd have an airframe to protect you for a while.

I've considered how to handle both water and tree landings, and agree with others that for water, minimum speed, tailwheel first, then wingtip, and hope for a mostly level wet groundloop. For trees, minimum speed, wings level, stall just as you mush into the treetops, and hope for the best.

An acquaintance went into trees in his aircraft (not an RV) and aimed for the minimum-speed, stall into the treetops method. He caught a stronger tree with one wing than the other, the plane spiraled around the tree as it fell, and then dropped upright on the ground at the base. Both occupants walked away largely uninjured.
 
Water (if there is no runway (I mean road))

In the late 80s, the line guy at West Yellowstone said I needed to fuel my plane myself. Why? He had fueled a 4 that went into Shoshone Lake the day before. The backseater survived, the pilot hit his head and did not. No word on cause....My thought ever since has been that if I can't make it to 500-600 feet of lousy road, I will tighten my belts as tight as possible, and go for the water....for one thing, the G is survivable if I fly it right...for another, there is almost always a water body to visit...trees? trunks kill people in steel cars at pretty slow speeds...and you are not doing much flying, and a lot of falling, once you hit the tops....Have not had to put my theory to a test, tho....Best, J N95JF
 
Yellowstone Accident

johnf_1 said:
In the late 80s, the line guy at West Yellowstone said I needed to fuel my plane myself. Why? He had fueled a 4 that went into Shoshone Lake the day before. The backseater survived, the pilot hit his head and did not. No word on cause....
Click to expand...

That was a friend of mine from TUS. He broke his neck in the accident and his son lived. I flew up to Yellowstone to view the a/c. It had so little damage, you could have patched a couple of holes and flown it. The cause is here:

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=37764

What is tragic is that he was a co-builder and partner of the below '89 accident (aileron roll on T.O.) at La Cholla Airpark and used the core of that engine for the -4 he built in the Yellowstone accident.

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=40674
 
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I attended the FAA seminar at Oshkosh on ditching and right up until then, I thought putting it down in water would be a manageable experience. I didn't come away with that . Darkness, water that wants to drown you, likely upside down, possibility of tip up being jammed shut in shallow territory etc., leads me to believe that trying to nestle it into canopy cover might be a better idea.

It also reminded me that I'm really lucky to fly in the midwest.
 
Rescue

I helped rescue a 6A slider pilot who did a forced landing on land but flipped upside down into about a foot of water in a marshy spot. His body rode the shoulder harnesses into the baggage area as he flipped. He used a pocket knife to chip out a hole in the side area of the baggage compartment. He would have drowned had the water been a little deeper or if he had been unconscious.
 
Crop rows vs wind ....

bjconst said:
I have been in the beans & the corn, there is no water around us. Corn every time if you have a choice. The beans flipped me over in a hurry.
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In addition to the corn preference, my original flight instructor insisted that if you must make a choice, always go parallel to the crop rows and forget the wind.
 
The airport manager at U25 Dubois hit some turbulence going down a canyon at pretty high speed in a 6A. Knocked them both out and they went into the lodgepoles. They survived, but the airplane certainly didn't. The little RV actually clipped through 8 inch tree trunks and had half circle dents right to the spars. The airplane had to come out of the wilderness area in pieces by horse and backpack. Tim built a new one out of the pieces and is still flying it fifteen years later. How about this: skim it on the water a few yards out parallel to shore. Then, a graceful wet loop onto the beach right next to one of those cantinas made from palm fronds. Some chick in a sarong walks over and hands you an umbrella drink and all your problems just fade away.
 
Anywhere there are farm fields there are roads, and they are always wide enough to drive a combine on. Go for the roads!

About 15 years ago I was first on scene when a RV-8 had a forced landing in a freshly plowed field. The gear sheared off and it stopped in 75 feet. Every step I took I sunk into the dirt and that was when it was dry.

Go for the farm fields in winter when they're nice and frozen.

I've also had the experience of digging a friend out of a flipped over RV. Based on that experience my tool of choice is one of these mounted in a the floor storage compartment in my Rocket: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001JQ5YJ6/ref=pe_175190_21431760_M3T1_ST1_dp_1
 
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Ditching

I'm going for the trees. I don't like my chances in water. Afraid of flipping upside down and drowning before I can get out, if I can at all.

Good thread Paul. Hope to see you this weekend.
 
Water

Having been in a car that hydroplaned off I-95 into a tree, I'll go for the water. The trees down the embankment sure looked small and like they would cushion the impact, but they were rock solid. I'm thankful for air bags.

I'd probably go for just offshore, close enough that I could swim, but far enough that if the plane did flip, hopefully there'd be enough depth that I wouldn't be pinned.

Where there are fields there are farms, and where there are farms there are roads, and where there are fields, farms, and roads, there often power lines!

Hope I can just keep her in the air and maintain the equation that the number of safe landings = the number of takeoffs!

Chris
 
I've known four pilots that had to ditch:

C-182 crossing the channel from Catalina Island towards Riverside. Landed parallel to the waves after picking out a large boat to land next to. Everybody got out okay but plane sank rapidly in 4000 feet of water.

C-150 landed in tall pines just south of Atlanta. Pilot got scratched up in briars trying to get to the road. Hitched a ride back around to the airport to get his car. Parked and hiked in to wreck and removed several radios that he had just installed for instrument flying. Was arrested and put in back of cop car for looting. (Really!)

V-tailed Bonanza landed in bean field in Orange County, CA. Hit the only rock in the field and was D.O.A.

TriPacer landed in a muddy field and when it hit the tree line it got a "carrier arrested" type landing. Wings sheared off and pilot and passenger squeezed out of wreck underneath a shower of gasoline. This was half my plane which I had never gotten to fly before the wreck. No injuries. Plane wreckage was sold to a guy on our field and he rebuilt it and went to Oshkosh and got Reserve Grand Champion Classic
 
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Go for the beach

I know for a fact that if you manage to get flipped over on your back and the canopy is against the dirt or some other solid object that is where you are going to stay until help arrives. If you are under water i.e. the shallows of a body of water, help will probably come after you really care anymore. Same holds true if you catch fire on dry land. I think you could get out on dry land if the canopy/sill was off because the a/c will probaly be laying over on one wing giving you enough room on the opposite side to squeeze through. Given the amount of adrenaline I would have I think I can get down right skinny. I also carry a canopy breaker tool beside me now. Don't know that I could whack out enough canopy and get out with the sill still there but it is worth a try.

I have a -4 tipper and I have wondered about how I am going to get the canopy out of the way. I think I am going to try and get it off early at 83kts (my engine out speed). Maybe even yaw for a second to try and get it to catch the wind and blow off. I'd be curious about that idea from anyone reading.
I also try to remember to go through my off field landing checklist while taxxiing out by touching the components. That way I am a little distracted by taxiing and cannot look at the whereabouts of the component (master, fuel control etc.) easily. I know this, if I do get it on the ground without dying I don't want to fry b/c I left the master on and the fuel flowing.

All said and done, I think this blog has changed me from water to land. I just think being upside down close to shore is not a good scenario. I thank you all for your sage and thoughtful responses in this post. Go for the beach, it might be the best of both worlds!
 
Trees first Water last

As with other pilot postings, I took the Offshore Water Survival Class which included HUET Helicopter Underwater Egress Training. Training was required to fly offshore in the Gulf any time Civil Air Patrol aircraft venture out past the glide ratio of land. Since our location is in Houston, some of the flying CAP is tasked with takes us beyond the glide path to land. Great training and I hope I never have to use it. With this information, and assuming there was an actual choice between only those two, I would choose trees over water.

Pat Garboden
Katy, TX
RV9A N942PT
 
I watched the MythBusters episode on getting out of a car after it became submerged. For me, the amazing thing was that it was no problem upright, but no matter how many times they tried it, even knowing it was coming, the "victim" couldn't get out without help when it was inverted. I once heard the argument for avoiding ditching when faced with a choice as this: when you choose to crash into trees you have to survive a crash. When you choose to ditch in the water, you have to survive both a crash and a shipwreck! Not to be glib but I have no idea which is "right", under which circumstances, even after thinking about it on numerous occasions. I know hope is not a plan, but I still hope I don't have to test either scenario.
 
I have spent hours over northern Ontario and Quebec. Hours of nothing to safely land on, on the same flight. My first choice was always the bogs. There is usually some with at least smaller trees. So first choice was the Bogs, (with hopefully no Moose:D) Then smallest trees and then just trees. I always thought about the water next to the shore. But I know the 10 will flip, it would be very difficult to get myself out let alone my family. So water is not an option for me. In the mountains I think about the clear cuts and hopefully miss the biggest stumps.:eek: If you get banged up and knocked out. The water will not wait for you to wake up, the trees will.

In the west with our really talls trees, I just....... don't want to think about it.:)
 
aerhed said:
Another plus for the RV-10. Just blow the doors on final and go for the shallows.
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My wife and I have decided that blowing the doors is exactly what we would do shortly before touchdown, if forced to ditch. We have a training session prior to each trip to the Bahamas where we re-familiarize ourselves with our life vests and the raft, and talk through these scenarios.

I have read, and believe, the statistics about water ditchings being more survivable than forced landings on land, but getting out of the airplane becomes the primary objective once one survives that ditching. I don't think there is any one "perfect" choice. As many here have noted, each situation will call for a different solution.

Great thread!
 
TroyBranch said:
In the mountains I think about the clear cuts and hopefully miss the biggest stumps.:eek: ....
In the west with our really talls trees, I just....... don't want to think about it.:)
Click to expand...
I've thought much about this and wondered while reaching no definitive conclusion...

Tall trees, the top of which will absorb quite a bit of fwd energy but leave a fair amount of downward potential, or a clearcut where there will be no way to miss the massive stumps, none of which will absorb any energy? Neither seems fun, but at the moment I would be very hesitant to try to land in a clearcut in the West. If I did consider a clearcut, I'd be much more likely to consider the eastern slopes of the major ranges than I would the western slopes, just because of the potential stump size.
 
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I was asking similar questions maybe 6 months ago. Someone on VAF said maybe put a sawzall in your plane to cut yourself out if inverted or just plain trapped. ( He told the story of a guy who engine failed onto land, an RV 6 I think near Martha's Landing, flipped and drowned in water because the land was marshy ) Well a sawzall won't fit, but that little "Milwaukee Hackzall" just barely fit in my 8. Its now installed. Hope I never need it. When I bought it and was testing it, it cut a ruler shaped piece of steel in half in less than a minute. Ought to cut an RV 8 in half in about 20 seconds.:eek:
 
Great thread!

All: For me, this issue is one of the real big, "every second" issues that make flying so challenging and provocative. Not speed, not data from the panel, not "is my butt sore", but "where am I going to park it if need be". I mind roads, traces,trails, driveways, parking lots, athletic fields, golf courses, even roofs of monster warehouses (Tracy)...With two dead sticks and a couple of interruptions, I am acutely aware of that deafening silence and the immediate shift from the lazy hypothetical to the event that is coming up, really soon, and effecting outcomes that may involve some pain and lengthy rehab. The decisions come fast and may (actually, probably do tho I have not explored alternative choices a lot) make a difference....lots of good ideas, here...Best, J FYI: my former hanger mate Bill Bruce (RIP stalled at Cloverdale) touched down a little short in Baja on a dirt/sand strip, and dug his way out of his flipped RV6, so I have not ruled out a soft field choice, just hate the idea. Still preferring water....
 
I REALLY don't want this to turn into a tip up vs slider debate. I do wonder if I were to unlatch my tip up before a water landing if it would both provide some short term protection while also tear off forward with the deceleration G's, allowing an easier exit.

Overall, I'm in the camp of assessing the situation at the time. I don't like either option. Where I fly the trees are tall and solid, and the water is cold... like, real cold (had to add that for our Texas friends who don't understand cold).

This thread has been good. It's made me think. I just don't think for me that the answer is binary.
 
I don't think the answer is binary for any of us. When the day comes, you probably won't have the choice of land vs. water, you'll probably be over lots of one and almost none of the other. Just remember to post up here and let us know how it worked out. :)

I have the emergency release on my tip-up, and ditching procedure (water) for me would involve pulling that and releasing the canopy latch just before touchdown. I don't know that the canopy would depart, but my gut feel is that it would depart as the aircraft flipped.

Something else to consider... Hyperventilating will boost the oxygen content in your lungs and increase your ability to hold your breath under water. So if you're going in, remember to breathe deeply as you approach. Every little bit helps. :)
 
Additional Equipment...

With some minimal learning/practice, an easy-to-use device such as the Spare-Air 170 can provide enough breathing air to permit a panic-free egress from an inverted aircraft after a ditching scenario as long as the canopy/doors can be opened. Fairly inexpensive and reusable too…

http://www.spareair.com/product/models.html?tab=2#TabbedPanels1

Having and quickly donning some goggles so that you can see what you’re doing will enhance an effective underwater egress even more. Again, very reasonably priced…

http://dipndive.com/aqua-sphere-kayenne-small-fit-with-low-profile-lens-scuba-mask-goggles.html
 
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Not a bad idea from Whiskey Mike above, I printed the info on the little O2 cylinder. If I ever fly to the Bahamas, I'll buy one. But the eye only swim goggles is another story. Having done some scuba training, one learns how to clear water out of your mask by exhaling with your nose. ( You'd most likely be putting on your mask underwater after you've already flipped assuming one had the foresight to have them very close if flying over water.) Goggles that don't cover your nose, forget it, you're not going to get the water out from around your eyes.
 
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