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the faa vs Ipad users? Use and Ipad go to Jail?

mv031161

mv031161

Well Known Member
from an email I got from Flying magazine this AM

Use an iPad Go to Jail?
Is the FAA trying to take away our handheld navigators and chart readers? A new draft advisory circular would sure make it seem like it. In fact, if it were approved as written, for all intents and purposes, it would mean the end of being able to see our position on moving map displays...and then some. To get the lowdown on this alarming situation, read Robert Goyer's Going Direct.
 
Advisory Circulars are ADVISORY and not statutory - meaning they are not law and are not enforceable.
 
???

Don't know where you got your info as I haven't heard of or tried to find the article you mentioned. Ban iPads and other moving maps? Wow! After they have approved the iPad for use in cockpits of several major air carriers?
A major manufacturer may be behind this! :eek:
 
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mrreddick said:
A major manufacturer may be behind this! :eek:
Click to expand...

My first thought as well when I saw this article. How about the Boeing subsidiary Jeppseen for starters? It's about time they had a bit of competition. They stand to lose a lot if the carriers begin to use EFBs for chart management.
 
Not sure who at the FAA worked on this, but it is very troublesome at the very least. Download it and take a looksy at the DRAFT for yourself:

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_docs/media/AC-120-76B_Coord_Copy.pdf

While not regulatory in nature, the circular is particularly troublesome in that it seems to mash in part 91 operations with commercial operations. They also make a really weird case against ownship identification which, for the life of me, I can't figure out in sect 8:
Own-ship position is not authorized for display or used for any application, for navigation or otherwise, on a Class 1 or Class 2 EFB in flight. Do not use this AC by itself to add own-ship position on moving maps on Class 1 and Class 2 EFBs. For guidance on the display of own-ship position, see Technical Standard Order (TSO)-C165, Electronic Map Display Equipment for Graphical Depiction of Aircraft Position (current edition). For an acceptable means to use an airport moving map display (AMMD) during ground operations on a Class 2 or installed EFB, see the current edition of AC 20-159, Obtaining Design and Production Approval of Airport Moving Map Display Applications Intended for Electronic Flight Bag Systems.​

and in 9-e-3:
NOTE: Class 1 or Class 2 EFBs must not display own-ship position while in flight. For use of own-ship position on the ground see AC 20-159.
​

Looks like we need to "advise" the FAA on this draft.

Just my 2 cents...
 
This sure looks more like negligence than bad intent. The draft itself appears to contain internal inconsistencies, for example:

(3) Type B applications are used to display precomposed or interactive information such as navigation or approach charts. Required flight information is presented for each applicable phase of flight. A map-centering or page-turning function can be authorized if the operator properly evaluates it. Electronic navigation charts must provide a level of information integrity equivalent to paper charts.

NOTE: Class1 or Class 2 EFBs must not display own-ship position while in flight. For use of own-ship position on the ground see AC 20-159.

How can the map be self-centering without revealing own-ship position? (maybe you're only authorized to view the edges of the map?)

More significantly, how could such a regulation ever be effectively enforced? If asked, the pilot has only to tell the inspector that the portable GPS wasn't turned on.
 
Alan Carroll said:
This sure looks more like negligence than bad intent. The draft itself appears to contain internal inconsistencies, for example:

(3) Type B applications are used to display precomposed or interactive information such as navigation or approach charts. Required flight information is presented for each applicable phase of flight. A map-centering or page-turning function can be authorized if the operator properly evaluates it. Electronic navigation charts must provide a level of information integrity equivalent to paper charts.

NOTE: Class1 or Class 2 EFBs must not display own-ship position while in flight. For use of own-ship position on the ground see AC 20-159.

How can the map be self-centering without revealing own-ship position? (maybe you're only authorized to view the edges of the map?)

More significantly, how could such a regulation ever be effectively enforced? If asked, the pilot has only to tell the inspector that the portable GPS wasn't turned on.
Click to expand...

yes. i tend to agree with you, BUT BUT......if we dont police this or ask EAA, AOPA and all members of VAF and others to start voicing our opinions and stance in the subject, we will get jammed with this ridiculous law.

As for the enforcement: I just dont want to deal with it when it happens...no good will come from arguing with them....I deal with the FAA constantly on my business and I have no desire to add more to my plate.
 
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mrreddick said:
Don't know where you got your info as I haven't heard of or tried to find the article you mentioned. Ban iPads and other moving maps? Wow! After they have approved the iPad for use in cockpits of several major air carriers?
A major manufacturer may be behind this! :eek:
Click to expand...

At the moment no US part 121 air carriers can use Ipads in the cockpit. There is a limited test going on at Alaska and American. The tests are for using the Ipads to display charts and plates but not for navigation. Currently the FAA requires a Ipad in a 121 application to be powered off and stowed below 10,000 feet. The test is to consider allowing them for full time use as a EFB. If the 10,000 foot rule is not changed then there is little value to the airlines to equip the pilots with Ipads. They would still require almost full paper backups.

George
 
I haven't deeply read in detail, but it looks like the Garmin 696 would be also affected by this AC? So I'm thinking it's "just" a draft and a mistake...

Anyway, resistance is futile. One way or the other, the iPad will rule the EFB world... period! Soon, with new Aspen Connect stuff, you will get your certified GPS to send the position to your iPad. So no need for the iPad by itself to have the GPS... you could even just use the Wifi version and claim that the iPad doesn't have GPS... It's just silly then...

If it's an intentional move, it might just be a last resort from an avionics manufacture and/or Jeppesen... LOL!!

And in this case, I do agree with Mitch, it's better to let know our voice on that because it just doesn't make any sense.

Phil
 
sailvi767 said:
At the moment no US part 121 air carriers can use Ipads in the cockpit. There is a limited test going on at Alaska and American. The tests are for using the Ipads to display charts and plates but not for navigation. Currently the FAA requires a Ipad in a 121 application to be powered off and stowed below 10,000 feet. The test is to consider allowing them for full time use as a EFB. If the 10,000 foot rule is not changed then there is little value to the airlines to equip the pilots with Ipads. They would still require almost full paper backups.

George
Click to expand...

Delta is testing the iPad as well.
 
actually I have delt with them quite a bit and found ALMOST all of them to be very professional and well trained. Even if they were not, AC's are not enforceable - therefore don't worry about it.
 
mv031161 said:
from an email I got from Flying magazine this AM

Use an iPad Go to Jail?
Is the FAA trying to take away our handheld navigators and chart readers? A new draft advisory circular would sure make it seem like it. In fact, if it were approved as written, for all intents and purposes, it would mean the end of being able to see our position on moving map displays...and then some. To get the lowdown on this alarming situation, read Robert Goyer's Going Direct.
Click to expand...

With any luck at all, the guy who wrote that AC has been laid off - maybe he won't be back.

There are a lots of good people in the FAA but there are also many desk bound bureaucrats from top to bottom in the U.S. government who's only function is to irritate U.S. citizens like us. With the long over due budget cut backs maybe there will be fewer obstructionist bureaucrats in the future.

You should have heard the guy at an OSH forum talk about the FAA and 100UL fuel. The fuel is good, its been tested, it will work, it can be produced just like 100LL - the only problem is certification. FAA bureaucrats nearly caused several years of research work to be flushed down the drain - the effort had been completely stonewalled.

The guy went to a new person in the FAA above this stumbling block of regulators and the result was the entire FAA team is gone. A new group was formed and the effort is now moving forward. He said more was accomplished in the past six weeks than the previous three years. We may have a suitable replacement for 100LL one of these days and the aviation world won't come to end as we know it. !00LL is on short life support - lead is the problem and that won't go away.

This AC on the Ipad smells, someone appears to have been bought off. There are other efforts within the organization working with industry to get it approved for more applications. ADS-B is one of them.
 
sailvi767 said:
At the moment no US part 121 air carriers can use Ipads in the cockpit. There is a limited test going on at Alaska.........

George
Click to expand...

The first part of your post shown above is not correct.

sailvi, pm me if you want to discuss it further.
 
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