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N Number scam - action needed

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Carl Froehlich

Well Known Member
Today I sent a note to the FAA about an N number I tried to reserve on Jan 4th. I got a note back that they are still processing stuff from December, but the specific N number I requested was already given to Short-N-Numbers.com.

I contacted Short-N-Numbers.com about selling me the N number and got a quote of $1500.

Considering these guys will have a computer constantly pinging the FAA online registration site to reserve N numbers, standard folks like us are screwed.

I request all to send a note to the FAA and complain about their support of this scam. Their email is [email protected]

Carl
 
I agree, this practice should not be allowed. I wrote the FAA folks a year ago or so, at the address you listed, and the response was that they could not stop Short-N-Numbers.com because there was nothing regulatory that prevented them from doing what they were doing.

In order to change the rules in this case, we need to write the FAA Administrator and our Congressmen and Senators and hope they make the appropriate changes.

It would be helpful if someone would write up a boilerplate letter for all of us to send to them.
 
The faa makes up fake rules all the time. This would be a good time for them to do that. It is **** that this is allowed. Re-selling a reregistration should be an easy thing to fix.

Where is the EAA and AOPA on this? I can't believe it would take more than a phone call to straighten it up.
 
The faa makes up fake rules all the time. This would be a good time for them to do that. It is **** that this is allowed. Re-selling a reregistration should be an easy thing to fix.

Where is the EAA and AOPA on this? I can't believe it would take more than a phone call to straighten it up.


Good point about the EAA and AOPA.
 
Agreed

Also outraged by this practice. These companies are abusing the system. I recently saw that the FAA released the number N6A. I thought this would be a great find for many of our 6A builders. Nope! Already gobbled up by these people. The practice needs to be stopped.

Suggest we work through AOPA and EAA. Start calling.
 
I agree that I would be annoyed too, and it certainly seems kinda sleazy.

But, and I know I will get flamed for this, I think there's another side to consider. All this is is a natural market reaction to a demand that outstrips supply. Whenever that happens, market forces will naturally raise the price, even if the FAA itself won't. I don't think that's bad, and here is why - consider the alternatives:

Let's say the practice was outlawed, and since it was only $5, I went ahead and registered for that N-number 5 years ago, just because I really liked it, and may decide to build again, someday. Right now, I'm just sitting on it, because it was so cheap, why not.

Or, let's say the company bought it, but only priced it at $100, and somebody already beat you to it.

Either way, you wouldn't even have the OPTION of obtaining that N-number.

Instead, that N-number is still available to you, if you decide it is worth $1500. If not, somebody who desires it even more than you will have access to it.

Obviously, short n-numbers are in demand, so it's unlikely it would even be available to you, at any price, if selling them was illegal.

Just some ideas to fan the debate :D

Chris
 
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I agree that I would be annoyed too, and it certainly seems kinda sleazy.

But, and I know I will get flamed for this, I think there's another side to consider. All this is is a natural market reaction to a demand that outstrips supply. Whenever that happens, market forces will naturally raise the price, even if the FAA itself won't. I don't think that's bad, and here is why - consider the alternatives:

Let's say the practice was outlawed, and since it was only $5, I went ahead and registered for that N-number 5 years ago, just because I really liked it, and may decide to build again, someday. Right now, I'm just sitting on it, because it was so cheap, why not.

Or, let's say the company bought it, but only priced it at $100, and somebody already beat you to it.

Either way, you wouldn't even have the OPTION of obtaining that N-number.

Instead, that N-number is still available to you, if you decide it is worth $1500. If not, somebody who desires it even more than you will have access to it.

Obviously, short n-numbers are in demand, so it's unlikely it would even be available to you, at any price, if selling them was illegal.

Just some ideas to fan the debate :D

Chris

I'm going to reserve all of the available n-numbers. You people will have to pay me a million dollars apiece if you want one...

Same thing, only the scope is different.

Ain't right.

Reminds me of cyber-squatting back in the day.
 
I'm going to reserve all of the available n-numbers. You people will have to pay me a million dollars apiece if you want one...

Same thing, only the scope is different.

Ain't right.

Reminds me of cyber-squatting back in the day.

Ahh, but it's not the same thing, because the demand wouldn't match your supply, which you'd have to pay for out of pocket. Nobody would pay that much for a terrible n-number, and eventually market forces would drive the price back down to just about what the registration fee is now.

The laws of economics are just that, laws. We don't have to like em, but they still exist. Venezuela is trying to break them right now, and it isn't working out so well.

What if you really wanted an N-number that somebody was sitting on, and would gladly pay $100 for it, and yet you weren't legally allowed to?

I can guarantee that if this practice is outlawed, people will be posting on here complaining about how somebody is sitting on an n-number they want and not using it for years, and they can't get it.
 
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Not a Scam

If they are the holder of the number registration they can ask any price they want.

It's only a SCAM if they portend to have the number registration but do not actually grant their rights to it upon payment of agreed price.

So, you can bemoan the practice and their pricing, but there is no SCAM if they are selling something they purchased at the price the buyer agrees to.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game" seems to apply here.
 
Hello all,
I have been outraged by Sean over at Short N numbers for the past 6 months when I saw his price structure for N-numbers. Sean emailed me saying how he was also an "RV'er" and enclosed his price structure ranging from $1500-$2500 for a single N-number. I have been so upset about this I have been working on a computer program to compete against Sean to auto buy any short N numbers as they become advailiable ever night. I have had some good success and have been given these short N numbers away to builders free as long as they promise to fight Sean and his scam. I urge all of us real home builders to fight Sean and his scam of a company. If Sean sells one N-number a week he is making over $78,000 a year, that is not ok. We need to all make this a priority and get the FAA to change policy to stop this scam. We all work or have friends in the aviation industry, we need to spread the word on this and shut down this practice.
 
They could do away with N numbers. It's just one more way for the government to think they are in charge over us.
 
...I have been working on a computer program to compete against Sean to auto buy any short N numbers as they become advailiable ever night. I have had some good success and have been given these short N numbers away to builders free

I think this is great, and you have every right to do this, but what if hypothetically two RV'ers came to you and wanted the same N-number? You could go by first-come, first-served, but somebody will still go away unhappy. What if he offered to buy it from the first person for $1500, and they agreed? That's two people making a mutually beneficial transaction. The first got $1500 for a new autopilot, and the 2nd got the N-number he wanted. Should that be illegal?

I think the flawed assumption here is that if it weren't for this practice, the OP would have just applied for and received that N-number. In reality, it most likely already would have been scooped up.

Chris
 
If Sean sells one N-number a week he is making over $78,000 a year, that is not ok.

Why is it not okay for somebody to make a living selling something to other people that they will willingly buy, and probably wouldn't have had access to otherwise?
 
Here is Sean's pricing structure if anyone is interested.

IMG_0094.png
[/URL][/IMG]
 
Hello all,
I have been outraged by Sean over at Short N numbers for the past 6 months when I saw his price structure for N-numbers.

Why is your decision to interfere with his legal and potentially profitable business an altruistic endeavor?

Have any of your rights been infringed upon? Do you suffered any damages?

You, on the other hand, are on the internet telling everyone you are COPYING his idea to interfere with his perfectly legal business, and making statements about him which could be construed as malicious and anti-competitive.

What's next for ya? Van's charges too much for a finish kit so you'll rip the plans and sell them yourself?

Again, no scam here. Just sour grapes. And beneath the intent of VAF.

I'll probably be moderated on this one. But it's worthy of note.
 
Pesky Capitalists

The "N" number N6A that you refer to happened to be on a Cessna 152 at my home airport. Due to that fact I was privy to the deal that took place for Sean to obtain that number. The reality is that he bought the number from the registered owner and then had the new "N" number painted on the 152 along with the rest of the empennage as part of the deal. So it appears to me that he had a considerable cash outlay along with substantial footwork and probably some cold calling to land the deal in the first place.
Gee, sounds to me like work.
 
Real issue

The real issue is the antiquated process the FAA has for obtaining the n-number in the first place. Fix that process and this problem goes away. Log on, see the number, click and you got it. I'm sure someone can manuipulate any process, but I'm thinking the place to start is at the FAA.
 
Ticket Scalping (same thing)

Sounds like this sleazy Sean character is no better than an illegal sporting event ticket scalper. Ticket scalping is illegal in many parts of the country.

Also, the US government owns the N numbers so in effect he is reselling a resource he did not produce. Like someone harvesting trees form a national park and selling them.

Seems like there are some unexplored issues with this scam that should be looked into.
 
Sounds like this sleazy Sean character is no better than an illegal sporting event ticket scalper. Ticket scalping is illegal in many parts of the country.

Also, the US government owns the N numbers so in effect he is reselling a resource he did not produce. Like someone harvesting trees form a national park and selling them.

Seems like there are some unexplored issues with this scam that should be looked into.

Another public attack on the poor guy. Meh.

Vanity License Plates for your car, Ham radio call signs, telephone numbers, and domain names are other examples of things you can purchase from the original registrant.

Not scams, perfectly legal, and no need for publicly disparaging the person who chooses to do such business.
 
I understand people love to argue on these web boards, I on the other hand love to build and fly airplanes and will not be getting into web board politics. If you feel it is appropriate for Sean Reynolds over at Short-N-Numbers to scoop up 100's of FAA N-numbers for $10 and than sell them for $1,500-3,500 to all of us who are required to optain a N-Number for our aircraft that's fine. Though if you feel the FAA N-Number system is flawed and Sean should not be able to profit off a required goverment licensing I urge you to contact your state senator or the FAA.
 
Sounds like this sleazy Sean character is no better than an illegal sporting event ticket scalper. Ticket scalping is illegal in many parts of the country.

Also, the US government owns the N numbers so in effect he is reselling a resource he did not produce. Like someone harvesting trees form a national park and selling them.

Seems like there are some unexplored issues with this scam that should be looked into.

I don't have an issue with ticket scalping, especially if I want to see a concert and don't want to camp out in a ticket line, or track down each person with a ticket and find out how much it is worth to them.

As to the n-numbers, he's providing the service of giving you access to an N-number that almost certainly would not be available at all otherwise.

The outrage is understandable, and people can voice their opinion to the feds as they wish, but if this guy gets shut down, let's not believe that everybody will magically get the short n-number they want. Demand will still exceed supply, and most people will be left unhappy.
 
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I understand people love to argue on these web boards, I on the other hand love to build and fly airplanes and will not be getting into web board politics. If you feel it is appropriate for Sean Reynolds over at Short-N-Numbers to scoop up 100's of FAA N-numbers for $10 and than sell them for $1,500-3,500 to all of us who are required to optain a N-Number for our aircraft that's fine. Though if you feel the FAA N-Number system is flawed and Sean should not be able to profit off a required goverment licensing I urge you to contact your state senator or the FAA.

ROFL - You don't want to argue on the web but you do want to make spurious accusations, interfere with a business model, and urge legislation or administrative action to stop that which you find objectionable.

What's the real scam here?
 
I understand people love to argue on these web boards, I on the other hand love to build and fly airplanes and will not be getting into web board politics. If you feel it is appropriate for Sean Reynolds over at Short-N-Numbers to scoop up 100's of FAA N-numbers for $10 and than sell them for $1,500-3,500 to all of us who are required to optain a N-Number for our aircraft that's fine. Though if you feel the FAA N-Number system is flawed and Sean should not be able to profit off a required goverment licensing I urge you to contact your state senator or the FAA.

Well to be fair, he isn't "forcing" you to buy his tail numbers. You can just as easily pick up a random N number directly from the FAA for a much more reasonable fee. I don't think what the guy is doing is scummy or even a scam. Anyone can do what he's doing, he's just doing it much better than the rest of us, or rather he beat everyone else to the punch with the idea.
 
To me it is like buying up all the elk tags and then re-selling them. I don't believe you can buy up all the license plates for cars and then re-sell them. Buying the N numbers is legal now so if we want changes, rules need to change.

I don't know how to improve the system, but I do not think this is the best way to do it.
 
To me it is like buying up all the elk tags and then re-selling them. I don't believe you can buy up all the license plates for cars and then re-sell them. Buying the N numbers is legal now so if we want changes, rules need to change.

I don't know how to improve the system, but I do not think this is the best way to do it.

From what I understand, he's not buying up all the n numbers. He's simply buying the short N numbers and other vanity numbers that the FAA releases back into the pool. If he were indeed buying every single n number it would be different...but that's what... a maximum of 5^36 combinations....roughly?
 
a maximum of 5^36 combinations....roughly?

Like buying every combination of lottery tickets and hoping no one else gets the right combo by accident? heehee

And I doubt anyone is seeking out that perfect deer tag number. (isn't there a maximum number of deer tags a person can buy, otherwise the tag is worthless for protecting Bambi and Thumper from being over hunted)
 
his system does not get them all. you can beat him to them. i have been sitting on N83RB for a couple of years now. it was being held in reserve and i noticed that the holder did not renew it. i checked every day until it hit the pool and the day it went available i got it.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
They don't care

I complained a long time ago about this.. but as long as they get the registration fee.. they don't really care..

You have an airplane kit or an aircraft.. you can reserve a number.. other wise.. ..NO

it's complete bs that you can just reserve as many as I want.. as long as they get their money..

It's abuse of the system.. it's there to reserve ONE number for YOUR airplane.. not as a business for someone to make money from RESELLING THEM..

Mr ,
N-numbers can be reserved by the public as long as they are available to reserve. We have no regulation to limit how many numbers an individual or corporation may reserve. As long as they keep paying the required reservation and/or renewal fee, we will reserve the number.

Thank you
tms


Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 8:59 PM
To: 9-AMC-AFS750-Aircraft (FAA)
Subject: Other - Suggestion

Subject: Suggestion

Application: Other
Comments: This seems like abuse of the system.
 
I don't understand. When I put in for my N number. I went to the FAA site and put in my number to see if it was available. It was. I paid IIRC 5.00 to reserve it. It could not go to someone else. When I was ready it was mine.
 
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I'm going to reserve all of the available n-numbers. You people will have to pay me a million dollars apiece if you want one...

Same thing, only the scope is different.

Ain't right.

Reminds me of cyber-squatting back in the day.

Precisely what I suggested a while back...get some vulture capitalist backing, reserve ALL available N-numbers, then charge whatever you want for them. You can effectively hold the entire aviation industry hostage. And it'd all be legal.

I may *still* do this.

But yes, this p**ses me off...it's very reminiscent of patent trolling.
 
Another public attack on the poor guy. Meh.

Vanity License Plates for your car, Ham radio call signs, telephone numbers, and domain names are other examples of things you can purchase from the original registrant.

Not scams, perfectly legal, and no need for publicly disparaging the person who chooses to do such business.

They aren't scams, but they are sleazy.

Vanity plates for a car? Go down to DMV and try to get a plate for a car you don't own. Better yet, go down to DMV and try to get hundreds of plates for cars which don't even exist so that you can sell them later. See how far that gets you.

If you think it's okay for him to do that, then you shouldn't have any problem with a corporation which is set up to scoop them ALL up and charge whatever they want to transfer them to you...that sound right to you?

BTW, that's a simple business model...find out how many n-numbers are currently unused, add to it the number that become available per year, and some easy math to figure out your yearly expenses. Determine the number of new registrations each year, and how much profit you want to make, and there's your pricing structure. A child could do it. All it takes is a pot of money and some software to buy them all.
N-numbers are given out by the government, and are not "products" which are produced by the sleaze who buys them all up and then extorts money from people who want them.
 
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What's unfortunate is that all this faux outrage and seeking legislative or administrative relief from this supposedly wrongful practice will make pilots look like a bunch of whiny children.

Then when we need help for something REAL like airport closures, continued availability of leaded fuel, delaying the stupid 2020 mandate, user fees, or whatever the next important issue to come the pike we'll be greeted the same way "here comes those whiny children again."
 
So if there's no limit to how many N numbers someone can reserve, whats to stop someone from buying ALL available numbers and re-selling them at a higher price? Would the FAA step in at that point?

While it may be legal, i think it it is unethical and morally wrong to do what this guy is doing. Just my opinion
 
Currently an Airworthiness Certificate cannot be granted until the N-number is already in hand. Reverse that, and this problem goes away. Now go convince the FAA of that logic...
 
If I called a popular restaurant and made 30 dinner reservations for tonight because I knew it was going to be a popular night at that restaurant, and I had NO intention to actually use those reservations, and then proceeded to sell my reservations to those people who couldn't get in because I already have them all......

Legal, yes. Gaming the system, definitely. Ethical, not hardly.

You gotta love capitalism.
 
Reply from FAA

Just as I suspected, you're wasting your time complaining to the FAA. I received the following reply to my comments overnight.

"This issue has been reviewed by our legal department and a determination has been made that this is not a matter that we can take action on. As of now, any entity may reserve an N-Number in their name for a one year period, and once the number is reserved there is no regulations dictating how they must use their reserved number."

Guess I have to give them credit for a prompt response though. I have no problem with entrepreneurship, but the intent of the reservation system is being abused, and thus should be revised.
 
Why is your decision to interfere with his legal and potentially profitable business an altruistic endeavor?

Have any of your rights been infringed upon? Do you suffered any damages?

...
Yes, he has hurt each builder to the tune of at least $1,500.

Based on his pricing structure, he is not just buying up short N-numbers but anyone that he can get.

Thus, if I were to buy N941WR again, or even some random N-number which means nothing to me, I would have to stroke him that check and with each check he receives, he can afford to buy more N-numbers.

Eventually, he will "own" every available N-number and if you want to fly your plane, you have to pay his "tax".

This is not just a problem for us but for restorers who want to use their plane's original N-number, they are also harmed.

As for the person who is trying to scoop them before the Jerk who shall remain nameless, I would happily pay his cost for the N-number, even if he held it for five years. The key being cost, not profit.

One other thought, a few years back the FAA made us start paying a registration fee for our N-numbers in the hopes of making more N-numbers available. Chalk this up to the law of unintended consequences.

I will post this again, for those who missed it SJordan's post earlier in this thread.

IMG_0094.png
[/URL][/IMG
 
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This is very simple. If enough people are willing to pay what he charges, his business will thrive. If not enough people are willing to pay what he charges, his business will dry up and he will eventually go bankrupt. Business 101.

FWIW There is no registration out there that is worth more than $10 to me. You can always accept any registration number the FAA assigns to you free of charge. YMMV

:cool:
 
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I've tried unsuccessfully to reserve a couple N numbers, on the day they were made available, that ended up having been reserved minutes before by this jack.

They showed up as available online, so I put in my CC information and waited. A few weeks later I got a letter in the mail that said the number was already taken, and did I want to reserve a new one or receive a refund. I checked refund, and yes, it cost me a few minutes and a stamp, but it cost the FAA far more to process the request, pay the cc swipe fee, mail me a letter, process my refund, and issue the refund.

I realize it's our own tax dollars here, but one could conceivably take this practice to an extreme to prove a point or force a change in the system. If suddenly the FAA is processing thousands of refunds for every N number that comes available, perhaps someone would finally take notice at budget time.
 
This is very simple. If enough people are willing to pay what he charges his business will thrive. If enough people are not willing to pay and accept any registration number the FAA assigns to them, his business will dry up and he will eventually go bankrupt. Business 101.

That's pretty much it right there!

If your attempts to legislate or mandate it out doesn't work the only other step is to run off his customers. Now I pulled his info from his site and dumped it into excel and of the 673 registrations he said he's sold 105. I obviously don't know his revenue but maintaining a budget website and running a script nightly to do the registrations is probably fairly low overhead. He obviously makes enough to make it worth his time and effort.

The flip side of all this is it really doesn't matter what industry or business you own or work in. There's always people out there that are against it.
 
I realize it's our own tax dollars here, but one could conceivably take this practice to an extreme to prove a point or force a change in the system. If suddenly the FAA is processing thousands of refunds for every N number that comes available, perhaps someone would finally take notice at budget time.

Ok so lets put our money where our mouths are. Everybody here who is outraged by this, reserve short registration tail numbers that become available every night. Let the FAA come back and tell us the number was already taken and do the refund process for every $10.00. If enough people keep it up for the next year and see if it makes a difference. Otherwise it is just a group of whiny, spoiled pilots with more bark than bite.

FWIW I just paid the $10.00 and reserved N3LA which became available today. Let's see if I actually get it.

:cool:
 
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...I realize it's our own tax dollars here, but one could conceivably take this practice to an extreme to prove a point or force a change in the system. If suddenly the FAA is processing thousands of refunds for every N number that comes available, perhaps someone would finally take notice at budget time.

Probably not, it just means some bureaucrat can hire more people and increase his/her staff.
 
Huh?

First of all I'm sorry if you can't ge eactly what you want for an N number.

When the jewelry store wanted too much to engrave my data plate I resorted to my tight wad builder philosophy and made my own from a scrap piece of SS.

I can't believe anyone would pay that kind of money for a vanity N number. Go back to the shop and get back to work on your project and take pride in finishing your airplane. If your biggest satisfaction if from your N number, you probably should have bought the airplane instead of building.

Jim
 
I shared in the initial outrage at this concept until I thought about it while I read all 5 pages of comments. There is no scam here. What there is, is capitalization on some people's excessive vanity and sense of entitlement.

Just like some people will happily pay for builder-assist, some people will happily pay for someone to find them *exactly* the registration they want. If you don't want to pay it, don't. Find something else in the list of what's available. You don't *have* to have that registration. You don't *deserve* it more than anyone else. It's just a number, and someone else thought to register it first.

Or in the case of N6A, as someone pointed out, it was bought from the previous owner, and the aircraft it was on was re-numbered (re-painted?) with something else. Paid for by the buyer. Seems reasonable to want to recoup that cost.

It's no different than cyber-squatting, which continues to this day. Websites, email providers, twitter handles, etc. can all be had for a price.
 
I shared in the initial outrage at this concept until I thought about it while I read all 5 pages of comments. There is no scam here. What there is, is capitalization on some people's excessive vanity and sense of entitlement.

Just like some people will happily pay for builder-assist, some people will happily pay for someone to find them *exactly* the registration they want. If you don't want to pay it, don't. Find something else in the list of what's available. You don't *have* to have that registration. You don't *deserve* it more than anyone else. It's just a number, and someone else thought to register it first.

Or in the case of N6A, as someone pointed out, it was bought from the previous owner, and the aircraft it was on was re-numbered (re-painted?) with something else. Paid for by the buyer. Seems reasonable to want to recoup that cost.

It's no different than cyber-squatting, which continues to this day. Websites, email providers, twitter handles, etc. can all be had for a price.

Nah... my complaint, and that of several other posters, is that for a $10 fee to the FAA it is not a "level playing field" for obtaining the numbers as they are publicly announced to be available.

Perhaps a one week announcement and a lottery would work better in practice?

Or heck, even an Ebay auction to reduce the National Debt? :)
 
Nah... my complaint, and that of several other posters, is that for a $10 fee to the FAA it is not a "level playing field" for obtaining the numbers as they are publicly announced to be available.

Perhaps a one week announcement and a lottery would work better in practice?

That's an idea I can probably get behind, however just remember that the demand won't go away, and many people will be left unhappy, and probably even offer to buy what they wanted from those won it. Deals will be made, because the market always finds a way to work.

And for those who suggest just buying them ALL up, and holding them hostage, my math indicates over 67 million possible N-numbers (more if we start using more letters). Let's assume (very) generously that 17 million are taken already. That's 50 million numbers at $10 a pop, so half a billion dollars to buy them all up. I'm pretty sure there aren't enough people registering airplanes in the next 100 years, at just about any price, to recoup that investment. Not to mention the ongoing fees to KEEP them registered. Plus I'm pretty sure that kind of monopoly would be axed pretty quickly by the feds, as essentially it's prohibiting registration.


Methinks there are plenty of $10 n-numbers out there for people unwilling to pay more than the next guy for a vanity #. I wanted 331GT - it was taken and I am quite happy with 313GT. But if I had really wanted 331GT, I would have been happy to have the opportunity to purchase it.

Chris
 
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There can never be a monopoly on N-number registrations. It's a moronic implication since the solution is ADD ONE CHARACTER.

Some math expert can tell us how many $5 bills it would take to own every 6 character tail number. (Hint: it's a very large number)

Anyone remember license plates with 6 characters? Dang.. not enough, problem = solved.
 
it works

He only makes money because people pay him. Our laws against illegal drugs don't work... because people want it. Simple as that.
(I don't like his business... but it is a market demand economy we live in)
 
He only makes money because people pay him. Our laws against illegal drugs don't work... because people want it. Simple as that.
(I don't like his business... but it is a market demand economy we live in)

Bingo. Maybe we should instead focus our efforts on rehabbing those who have unhealthy cravings for a special tail # :D

Or the FAA could tire of the whining and just assign everybody a random n-number, no choosing allowed. Just like the perfect socialist state, we'd all be equally miserable! Let's be careful what we ask for.

Chris
 
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