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VOR - do I need it?

R

Rick B.

Member
My mission is day VFR. I plan on going on some long cross country flights so will instal a GPS and some kind of weather info device. Why would I need or want to install a VOR antenna and equipment reguired to use that system?
 
No.

If you're using GPS during a VFR mission, there's only one reason to have a VOR - to listen to AM radio as the miles pass by... :cool:
 
How paranoid are you? With a backup GPS you'd be pretty well set, but there's always the chance of a GPS outage, OR getting caught in the soup, in which case I like the idea of having a NAV radio for use with an ILS. Even if you're a VFR pilot, I'd consider that a nice safety measure to be familiar with.

If you're still sourcing equipment, I'd look carefully at the price difference between a COM and NAV/COM, and also consider resale value, as IFR-capable cockpits seem to be all the rage.
 
You don't need it

With a good judgement, you are fine with just a map. A Gps is a bonus .
If you are a VFR pilot, with a good planing, good weather analysi and good judgement, you should never be in IFR condition. Even if the plane have the equipement for IFR you should not be there if it's IFR. Don't be like the cirrus pilot that have the non FIKI airplane and go in icing condition because the have TKS.

Icom 210 is 1000$. Nav com is over 4000$. Buy a back up gps for less than that.

If you want the possibility to do your IFR training or fly IFR later, than put all that you need and all the $$$ that go with it. If not, put your money somewhere else.

For vor loc and ils, if you don't have a real ifr taining, you sould not be there. Vfr pilot in ifr condition is never good.
 
1100 hours as a VFR private pilot over 13 years here. I have not used a VOR since my student training days in 2000 except for during maybe a BFR or two. The VOR simply is a dead, archaic technology for the VFR pilot. GPS is king.
 
VOR

I agree with Bob regards the map as a back-up to a GPS (or Vise-Versa). But after being an instructor for 44 yrs now, I find that many current generation pilots can't navigate with only a chart and a watch.
 
Very Obsolete Receiver = VOR. you can still fly to any vor anyways. havent used a vor since my instrument check ride. :)
 
When I was taking my tail wheel training years ago from an old timer curmudgeon in a 1040's circ L16 Aeronca with nothing showing but oil t&p and a compass, he asked me to head to a local airport for lunch. As I fumbled slightly for direction picking out landmarks and selecting a compass heading he tapped me on the shoulder and accused me of being a GPS user. He proceeded to ask "what happens if your GPS goes out or the batteries die?" to which I quickly responded, "I'll pull out my hand held back up GPS". This did not earn me any brownie points with him and I got an ear full of old timer wisdom in a louder than normal voice. Yes, I know how to use a map with pilotage and dead reckoning, I have to as a CAP MP. Bottom line, VOR never came up even from him. Not necessary if you have a GPS and in the event of emergency can read a map and pick out landmarks. Once in a while I switch to NAV on my EFIS and pull up a VOR just to see if it still works but that's about it. Don't waste you money on it if you plan on staying VFR.
 
Every "VOR" I've used in the past decade, was via. GPS.

The "map" is the backup for a VFR pilot.

BTW - for anyone looking for a fun flight, turn off or cover all your navigation equipment, grab a map, and try pilotage to some place you have not been before. It's a bit like geo-caching from the air. Private grass airstrips are a good challenge to spot from the air.

... hmmm. I think I know what I'll be doing this weekend!
 
humptybump said:
BTW - for anyone looking for a fun flight, turn off or cover all your navigation equipment, !
Click to expand...

I did this the other day to myself. I had left my GPS at home after updating the databases and didn't realize it until preflighting the plane. I had the initial thought of going home to get the GPS, but elected to fly without the GPS. It was good for me to fly without any nav equipment just to keep sectional situational awareness skills dusted off!
 
I bought an Icom A-24 hand held radio so I would have a backup VOR if everything else went toes up on me. Not a very expensive way to have VOR but I've never used it. I also have a backup GPS which would be my first option.
 
I have very mixed emotions about this topic. My first instrument approach in flight school was an NDB, and for some reason, I always enjoyed doing them from then on. I believe most people think military aircraft are more advanced than, in reality, they are - with the exception of the latest and greatest blocks/models that are slowly being fielded. That being said, I can still continue to listen to those AM stations on my ADF in many Army helos. Can't find many approaches anymore, but can listen to the ball game.

When I first started operational flying, aviation handhelds were first beginning to become widely available. You didn't dare let the old-timers know you had it or bring it near the cockpit. Regulatory EMI issue aside, it was more of the bravado of - 'what's the matter boy, can't read a map?!'. I remember one instrument training flight (in VMC), I talked an instructor pilot into allowing me to have my handheld in the cockpit just to 'try it out'.

On vectors with ATL outside the marker for the ILS into KCSG next to Fort Benning, I glanced at my handheld with the localizer course in plain view and noticed we were still on a 90' vector to final and getting awfully close to the localizer. Happily on vectors, and with the CDI on the HSI speedily cruising towards centered, my IP was busy BSing with me and failed to notice. I queried ATC about us soon blowing through the final approach course to which he apologized and gave us a left 270' to rejoin. My IP, a bit embarrassed, said 'great catch, it's busy today, guess he waited too long for our final vector'. Then and there I really saw the power of GPS, moving map, and aviation databases. The amount of situational offered at just a glance was truly amazing. I don’t even want to think about the days of intersection holds with one VOR, large wind correction angles, and huge GS differences between OB/IB legs. I was flying X correction outbound and rolled out X degrees left of course, so I’ll use X degrees inbound, inbound timing was X so I’ll adjust to Y. Oh ****, change freq, change HSI, **** there’s the intersection. Turn outbound, wait…. was I standard or left turns? I am outbound right?A little melodramatic, maybe, but so easy to get mixed up – and A LOT of focus at times expended on certain things and maybe not others – constant angle of bank, speed, etc.

Now…follow the magenta line…Shoot, the 430 even tells you when to turn. Do I miss some of the days without GPS? Sure. All the technicalities about navigation is really what drew me to loving aviation – especially instrument flight. Even though I file /G, most of the time I always file VOR airways. Often times departure quickly announces, ‘uh (dummy)…would you like to just go direct to X…?’ It’s very hard for me to go whole-hog and just file GPS direct – just a touch of that grumpy old-timer in this not-so-old timer’s aviation mind.

Are newer generations going to only use GPS – absolutely. It’s just the way everything is going. What if my 430 goes TU, then my Skyview map, then my iFly, then my iPad with WingX, then my iPhone with WingX? My hope is that the younger generations would want to learn aerial navigation as part of the fun of learning to be a proficient aviator and learning all they can about aviation. I can’t imagine just strapping in, hitting direct, and following a magenta line everywhere I went – how boring…
 
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lllewis45 said:
I agree with Bob regards the map as a back-up to a GPS (or Vise-Versa). But after being an instructor for 44 yrs now, I find that many current generation pilots can't navigate with only a chart and a watch.
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And for 35+ years, I've had this intense interest in keeping aviation safer........ever since a United Airlines DC-8 cargo jet plowed into the mountain close to home. Charts & watches haven't solved the problem, but GPS certainly can (as proved in Alaska). I've since, spent a lot of time flying over various CFIT accident sites throughout the Rocky Mountain area of the western USA to document the benefits of moving map, terrain warning GPS. We were averaging three CFIT's around here every year. That figure has dropped significantly. Either there is much less flying, or moving maps have made a big difference as to terrain awareness.
 
The only reason I installed a used nav/com radio was to receive the AWOS from my local aerodrome which broadcasts on 109.6. Other than that, its only other function is to act as a backup com.
 
Supposedly, a single, small-ish by today's standards, nuclear warhead that is detonated at an earth-orbital altitude** would render a very large number of satellites useless. There may be a couple of nuclear-capable countries out there who would be willing to try it just to get some global attention (Quiz: can you think of any leaders today who are looking for some global attention? :). And if that happens, I can imagine 100,000 airborne, GPS-dependent pilots around the world who haven't a clue as to exactly where they are or how to get where they're going.

So I second the idea of routinely practicing alternative methods of navigation: pilotage, dead reckoning, VOR, whatever you have.

** Something that was actually done 50+ years ago until the US and USSR realized how awful it is and agreed to stop space testing of nuclear weapons! Google "Starfish Prime" for info on one such test.
 
As a compromise, you could look at a KX125. According to what I've seen listed for sale used they're not terribly expensive, and it's got a built-in CDI.
 
smiller said:
Supposedly, a single, small-ish by today's standards, nuclear warhead that is detonated at an earth-orbital altitude** would render a very large number of satellites useless. There may be a couple of nuclear-capable countries out there who would be willing to try it just to get some global attention (Quiz: can you think of any leaders today who are looking for some global attention? :). And if that happens, I can imagine 100,000 airborne, GPS-dependent pilots around the world who haven't a clue as to exactly where they are or how to get where they're going.

So I second the idea of routinely practicing alternative methods of navigation: pilotage, dead reckoning, VOR, whatever you have.

** Something that was actually done 50+ years ago until the US and USSR realized how awful it is and agreed to stop space testing of nuclear weapons! Google "Starfish Prime" for info on one such test.
Click to expand...

You brought up a very interesting and relevant topic and the military loses sleep over this issue. Any kind of EMF warfare or even sun spots can seriously degrade Command and Control and render cockpit communications, navigation, and cockpit SA sensors inop. Our war fighting abilities are greatly degraded operating under those conditions.

WRT to the VOR issue, if you have it, great! However, for other than local flights, I would recommend a map with at least a course line drawn on it or have a paper copy of your flight plan with courses and times on it. Practice dead reckoning, it is both fun and also challenging.

Regards,
 
I've been flying with a GNS430 in my Bonanza for 12+ years (mostly IFR) and haven't needed vor/ils yet. Yes, I've shot ILS' but I could have just as easily asked for RNAV. I put a GNS 420 in my RV-8.
 
VOR is arcane but there are scenarios where GPS services would be shut down... It's unlikely we'll never experience this but VOR still gives a means to triangulate position or guidance to an airport should it happen. Many have become less than vigilant tracking current position since the advent of GPS and autopilots.
 
smiller said:
Supposedly, a single, small-ish by today's standards, nuclear warhead that is detonated at an earth-orbital altitude** would render a very large number of satellites useless. There may be a couple of nuclear-capable countries out there who would be willing to try it just to get some global attention (Quiz: can you think of any leaders today who are looking for some global attention? :). And if that happens, I can imagine 100,000 airborne, GPS-dependent pilots around the world who haven't a clue as to exactly where they are or how to get where they're going.

So I second the idea of routinely practicing alternative methods of navigation: pilotage, dead reckoning, VOR, whatever you have.

** Something that was actually done 50+ years ago until the US and USSR realized how awful it is and agreed to stop space testing of nuclear weapons! Google "Starfish Prime" for info on one such test.
Click to expand...

Only.................if CFI's are dumb enough, to just let them blindly follow the magenta line. I hope you really can't "imagine" that 100,000 airborne scenario. Considering I always flew mountainous areas, I'd usually pre-define my route on a sectional. I haven't triangulated VORs since 1993, when I purchased my first Garmin moving map. Besides, for the same reason Alaska promotes the use of GPS............VORs are line of sight, and you have to fly higher. And while your eyes are stuck in the cockpit in an attempt to change frequencies & triangulate, you'll probably clobber a bird or another airplane. I prefer to instantly know exactly where I am, and what the weather will be. Works well with my fuel computer too.

In the meantime, I have a saying......

"If the instructor tells you to throw your GPS into the back seat, then throw them out!"

Heck, I don't even think it's a good idea to just leave the GPS home for some of those cross countries. I see that "dumb" suggestion all the time in flying magazines. What would we prove? That we no longer know the exact boundaries of all that restricted airspace that surrounds us? Or we won't know the weather a few hundred miles off?

I've had this intense interest in the prevention of CFIT (controlled flight into terrain) for many years now. Moving map GPS & synthetic vision can do wonders, compared to the old school methods. I do make it a point to always inquire about GPS failures. Basically it's a bad antenna, bad unit, or a desire to fly into a test zone at the wrong times. For most, you can go year after year, after year, without failure. A good friend who fly's a 737 in which the GPS is the first mode of navigation, reports that it's been eleven years since their GPS lost track for a few seconds. I've owned five Garmins & one Lowrance since 1993. I did loose a signal for a few minutes in '94.

Always carried a portable Nav/com just in case.

L.Adamson
 
I've had RAIM warnings and been in areas where GPS was NOTAM'd unavailable. Sorry, redundancy means I also have a VOR receiver in my aircraft.

There are other benefits as well - HIWAAS is almost always available (can't get that over GPS), some airports have their AWOS/ASOS broadcast over the VOR frequency, sometimes talking to FSS involves listening on a VOR, etc.

A VOR receiver may not be as advanced or as useful as a GPS receiver, but it is still useful. And to the comment that you'll have your head stuck in the cockpit messing with VOR frequencies...well...I've seen that *far* more often with people futzing with their GPS: looking down, watching the map go by instead of looking out and watching the world go by seems to be pretty common.
 
I haven't studied FAAs NEXTGEN and their plan to decommission a large portion of the VOR navaids, but I would look at this possible upcoming change before spending much money. This is planned for 2020, which is less than 7 years from now.
 
ChiefPilot said:
A VOR receiver may not be as advanced or as useful as a GPS receiver, but it is still useful. And to the comment that you'll have your head stuck in the cockpit messing with VOR frequencies...well...I've seen that *far* more often with people futzing with their GPS: looking down, watching the map go by instead of looking out and watching the world go by seems to be pretty common.
Click to expand...

Then................why don't you tell them, to look up!

Quite frankly, I've got quite tired of all this "magenta line" ****, that I constantly see on some particular pilot forums. Somebody's always referring to that ancient "has been" video, titled "Children of the Magenta Line". Or...........what about those two CAP guys............
 
DAGO said:
You brought up a very interesting and relevant topic and the military loses sleep over this issue. Any kind of EMF warfare or even sun spots can seriously degrade Command and Control and render cockpit communications, navigation, and cockpit SA sensors inop. Our war fighting abilities are greatly degraded operating under those conditions.
Click to expand...

While some may lose sleep over this on a battlefield scale, I personally know just how big "space" is, and am not too terribly worried on a global basis. It's not as easy as you might think.
 
Just my 2 cents worth, but in the Air Force, we still train our students exclusively flying "old school" methods.. One never knows when the proverbial switch will be turned off, and when it does, it pays to know a little bit about the "old school" ways.... That being said, I fly primarily GPS because of the accuracy and absence of VOR finickiness ... but should it fail, I can always back myself up using a VOR/TACAN. A little pilotage goes a long way! Bet the dudes in the LORAN days thought that their system would NEVER be turned off :)

Luis
 
YellowJacket RV9 said:
... OR getting caught in the soup, in which case I like the idea of having a NAV radio for use with an ILS.
Click to expand...

http://xavion.com/

Even if you have to buy a tablet and Xavion, it's less than $1000 with far more utility...and for a VFR pilot not trained to fly an ILS, far more likely to bring a happy ending.

If you must have some kind of VOR capability, get a handheld NavComm radio.
 
longranger said:
G1000 equipped aircraft can still hit mountains: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20071121X01832&key=1

Whatever you use, make sure you KNOW how to use it.
Click to expand...

And my last reply just happened to mention those two CAP guys. This accident is often used as a reason to dismiss the capability of GPS, keeping VORs and perhaps rebuild LORAN. A Civil Air Patrol member, as well as a RV builder and memeber of this forum, gave me some good insight, and information about new regulations that were set into place, after this accident occured.

Never the less, I've been to many fatal and non fatal accident sites over the last decade by air. The "modern" color moving map GPS has never failed to identify a potential terrain problem far in advance. And I've got a long, long list of CFIT accidents, in which it would have been very appreciated.

L.Adamson
 
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