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*!#$%^* Nose Seal!

rjcthree

rjcthree

Well Known Member
Oh great holders of those dirty Lycoming secret techniques . . .

How do you get the crank nose seal over the prop flange? I did a moderate search, found zip - other than when to change the seal . . .

ARGH!!!!!

Rick 90432 -short block done. One almost mistake - caught.
 
Rick - Take a look at section 7-81 of the H2AD overhaul manual. Hopefully others have tips, because stretching it that much makes me nervous.
 
I've only done it once while building my engine at Superior and all I can say is that they had me stretch it way more than I thought it could be stretched. It's scary, but they tell me that it's no big deal. Just lube it up good first.
 
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The way I do it.

Wrap the flange with duct tape. Lubricate the seal. I use DC-4. Hook the seal under the bottom of the flange. Use two round shaft screw drivers to walk it the rest of the way around and behind the flange.
The seal will return to it's original dimension.
Right or wrong, that's the way I do it.

Randy Hooper
 
Yep... tape the flange and stretch the seal over the flange. Do not forget to remove the spring first, then put it back in place.
 
Every thing you all said sounds good, we did one other thing when building our engine though, we put the seal in some very hot water to soften it up a bit first & used a special tool to stretch it around the prop flange.

Russ
 
Yep... you can even bring the seal to a slight boil in water to help. Check the flange for burrs too, if detected file them. Also, it would be a good time to fit a retaining plate to the front of the case halves. We also use Ultra Grey gasket sealer.
 
Randy Hooper said:
Wrap the flange with duct tape. Lubricate the seal. I use DC-4. Hook the seal under the bottom of the flange. Use two round shaft screw drivers to walk it the rest of the way around and behind the flange.
The seal will return to it's original dimension.
Right or wrong, that's the way I do it.

Randy Hooper
Click to expand...

This is exactly the way I do it, except I use oil instead of DC-4. I've used the tool before, and found it will scratch the crank flange. I also shorten the spring about a quarter of an inch before I install it.
 
I had a leaky front seal after about 60 hours on my XP-360. I could actually rotate the seal in place (it's supposed to be 'glued' into place').

As others have said, remove the spring and you can get it over the flange. Yes, it will cause some facial contortions but that seal is surprisingly elastic.
 
Had to replace one of these once, and a master showed me the trick...

  • First, go to goodwill and get an electric frying pan. It will be used once -- for this.
  • As others said, duct tape over the flange and grease over that.
  • Put some oil in the pan and heat to 300 or so, with the seal in there. this takes maybe 10-25 minutes to make the seal essentially a noodle.
  • Wearing gloves, fish out the seal, slap over the flange and work into place. It goes over the seal easily
  • Let it sit at least a day (I let it sit a week, because I was on a business trip in the meanwhile) before turning the crank.
 
Do't do what some...

Russ McCutcheon said:
Every thing you all said sounds good, we did one other thing when building our engine though, we put the seal in some very hot water to soften it up a bit first & used a special tool to stretch it around the prop flange.

Russ
Click to expand...

...bright(?) Bonanza pilot did at our airpark.

He used a microwave oven to heat it - after removing the spring, of course - and turned the seal into a pretzel...:)

Sometimes the short cut is stupid...:rolleyes:
 
As others have said, remove the spring, warm up the seal, lube it, duct tape and saran wrap the flange and stretch over. It surprising how much it stretches.
I used pliobond to seal the new seal. I did mine at 75 hours. My old seal looked good and I didn't believe once replacing with the new, it was fixed. It was and I'm now at 300+ hours and counting with no signs of leakage.
 
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Another....

My ECI O360 puked the seal at about 50 hours and a second one almost immediately thereafter. They recommended-and provided-an oversized seal that solved the problem after install as described in the above posts with heating and pliobond.

Sorta like delivering a baby-in a reverse engineering kinda way.
 
DON'T USE OIL........ Lyc. wants you to glue the seal in place with PLIOBOND. Heat the seal in hot water........... a Mr. Coffee will do. Then install seal as above. Have the surface ready, clean of any oil.... and apply the glue with a acid brush bent to a 90 to reach the seal area. Install the seal, let it dry and cool and shrink back to normal size. I gave it over nite. Install the spring, THIS IS THE HARDEST PART. With the spring in place, apply glue to the seal and press into place.................... GOOD LUCK!!
 
How do these instructions change if the crank is out of the case? My engine is yet to be assembled. Should I wait until the case is together?
 
I remember watching John at Matituck put my seal on when he built my engine - he had a special tool that was remarkably simple, yet quite magic. "Don't blink, or you'll miss it!" he said, and voilà - the seal was over the flange!

I've never looked to see if it is generally available, or something Mattituck built...

Paul
 
RAMPEYBOY said:
How do these instructions change if the crank is out of the case? My engine is yet to be assembled. Should I wait until the case is together?
Click to expand...

Done the same................ it must go over the flange. and, YES..... the case must be together...
 
Hmmm

Seems like I hit a nerve here. Thanks everybody for the help. The tape/hot water/grease/swear a lot approach seems like the ticket.

I looked long and hard at the idea of putting the seal in the crank from the backside before installing rods. It LOOKED easy, took a whole lot less stretch, and with some tape, i could keep it out of the way of the case assy process. I think it's doable, but I'm past that point now.

Thanks eveybody. Rick 90432 short block.
 
I have a short video of this

Ironflight said:
I remember watching John at Matituck put my seal on when he built my engine - he had a special tool that was remarkably simple, yet quite magic. "Don't blink, or you'll miss it!" he said, and voil? - the seal was over the flange!

I've never looked to see if it is generally available, or something Mattituck built...

Paul
Click to expand...

I took a 5 second close-up video of John Haas from Mattituck doing this maneuver at their TMX Assembly Workshop in January. Paul is not kidding when he says don't blink.:) I think I watched the video about a dozen times before comprehending what happened. John is really a master whne it comes to working on Lycomings. I'll post the video and also a picture of his install tool when I get home tonight. I don't believe that he used grease or any lubricant, saran wrap, duct tape, or anything else when installing this. I'm sure Mahlon Russell will correct me if I'm wrong.
 
If you are going to cut it, just buy the one that already has the split in it. Lycoming sells one. Stretching works just fine though.
 
That's a standard tool, I can't find it off the bat, but it's a production tool. You don't need it really though.
 
Because..

I'm sure it would work, but why bother?

Because the new seal I replaced last week was cut that way brand new, and without the raised lip (early 150 hp), and that what the overhaul manual said to do. I saved the old spring to wrap around the outside of the seal to hold it closed, then snuck in the new spring and pushed it back into the case with pliobond per the manual.

Andrew
-4 started and sold
dreaming again
A&P I.A.
 
Try the plastic bag method

This method works. I did it, is was easy. Warm the seal in hot water. As Gil mentioned, do not use a microwave. Do NOT oil the seal. Do NOT cut the one piece seal. Spruce sells a cut seal and a one piece seal. THEY ARE DIFFERENT. Decide which one you want to install. I used the one piece seal. I actually bought two in case I destroyed the first one but the first one went in ok.

Place a plastic bag over the flange. It will serve as a lubricant. Remove the spring before installation. Clean the surface of the flange & the crank so it's perfectly clean. Using nothing more than a long screwdriver, pull the seal over the flange allowing it to ride on (and tear) the plastic bag.

Once the seal is over the flange, the hard work begins. Sometimes the seal curls so you must correct it.

Using two needle nose pliers, reinstall the spring.

As mentioned before, apply PLIOBOND to the surface of the case and to the outside of the seal. Make sure no Pliobond gets on the crank. Push the seal in.

Once the seal is in place, using some PROSEAL (which everyone has in the refrig), apply a thin layer to the gap between the seal and the case. Allow 24-48 hours to dry and your seal will not leak nor spin.

My thanks to 9 builder and A & P Roger Ping for his helpful ideas.
 
Lycoming SI 1324B

Ironflight said:
I remember watching John at Matituck put my seal on when he built my engine - he had a special tool that was remarkably simple, yet quite magic. "Don't blink, or you'll miss it!" he said, and voilà - the seal was over the flange!

I've never looked to see if it is generally available, or something Mattituck built...

Paul
Click to expand...

Listers,
The tool that Paul and Noah both speak about is Lycoming ST-383. Info about it's use and just about everything you need to know about crankshaft nose seals (including over-sizes and part numbers) is found in Lycoming SI 1324C. SI 1324C can be downloaded here. See

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1324C.pdf

Should the link above stop working email me off list. I will send you a copy. You can find my email address by clicking on my user name at the top of this post.
I've never bothered using the tool. Heat the seal in boiling water. Cover the crankshaft with a plastic bag has always worked for me. It's a bit of a struggle using your hands, but it works. Having a third hand (helper) makes this job MUCH easier.
Charlie Kuss
 
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How do you get the old one off/out?

OK, now that we know how top put a new seal in, how do you remove the old one?
 
Got 'er done

Well, I got it done, the duct tape/grease/hot water/foul language method.

I have the strongest hands of anyone I know - and it was a real challenge. Popping in the spring was a non-event, the right-angle pliobond brush was a little annoying, and it took all of 30 sec to work the seal in. Hopefully that's how it should go!

Rick
 
Two ways to do this

N941WR said:
OK, now that we know how to put a new seal in, how do you remove the old one?
Click to expand...

Bill,
There are seal puller tools that you can buy from Snap On or other tool dealers. Most auto parts stores sell them. See

http://www.toolsource.com/shaft-seal-puller-p-98101.html?osCsid=pvm592g9285893n9h4qkofug26

Another method is to use a 90 degree pneumatic drill with a #30 drill bit to drill two holes (180 degrees apart) in the front of the seal (in the area with metal behind the rubber). I then install two 1/8" sheet metal screws and lever the seal out using a pair of needle nose pliers behind the head of each screw.
WARNING You must use great care while drilling the holes in the seal. Make sure that the drill bit doesn't slip and scratch the machined surface of the crankshaft.
Charlie Kuss
 
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A cotter pin puller hook tool works great to grab and pull the seal with.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
?The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk."
 
I did mine today with just a 90 degree pick, pliobond, head scratching, and swearing. We'll see if it works next week. :)
 
I did mine on Friday. It was difficult getting the old one out. I carefully used a long, narrow blade screwdriver through the flange openings to pry out an edge, and then carefully worked my way around.

The hardest part of the whole process, though, was cleaning the old glue out. I used Acetone and shop towels (high grade paper towel) wrapped around the end of the screwdriver and worked through the flange holes carefully scrubbing. This took about 45 minutes.

I then took the spring out of the replacement seal and put it around the crankshaft. Then I boiled a kettle, poured the water into a bowl and put the seal in the water. After it sat for a few minutes, I managed to get it around the prop flange.

I tucked the spring into the seal, then I put glue all around the outside edge of the seal and pushed it in firmly. I cleaned up the front edge of the seal and crankcase with Acetone and I was done. I have flown two or three hours since and it seems to be fine (he says with fingers crossed ;-)

Cheers
 
Two different styles of Cotter Pin removal tools

osxuser said:
I second what Mahlon said. Just be careful as cautioned earlier about scratching the crank.
Click to expand...

I used to use my cotter pin tool for occasional oil seal removal, till a broke two of them. I finally broke down and purchased the correct tool shown in my post above.
I suspect that the tool that Mahlon and Noah recommend looks like this. See

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item...&group_ID=1646&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

I was using this one (that I broke)

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item...&group_ID=1646&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

If you try to use the tool in the second link, grind then polish the pointed tip down to a smooth rounded end. Scratching the crankshaft will really ruin your day!

After I broke the second cotter pin tool, I broke down and purchased the purpose built tool.
Charlie Kuss
 
No spring with seal

I'm currently swapping O290's on my ship and I bought the correct split oil seal from ACS but wasn't given a spring. So I called ACS and asked. They called the manf. of the seal and no spring is supplied with it nor is it sold separately. Great. So what now?

Update:
Ordered the 13792 solid oil seal (with spring) and will install that instead. I'll return the split and get half my money back. I didn't see it because it was not listed in the O290 section but in the 540 section instead.
 
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Tools to clean out that nose seal crud

I've had a slow leak of dark oil from that nose seal area for a while. This thread finally got me off my butt to fix it. I got the old seal out easy enough but there is nice coating of pliobond or some type of adhesive that does not want to come clean with acetone and a rag. Any recommendations out there for homemade or storebought tools that are curved that I can get in there to scrape the crud off?

Joe b.
RV-7
 
Cleaning out pliobond?

Great thread; good to know I am not alone in my apprehension over removing and installing this seal. Ordered 13792 seal today.

Joe B. or others: Acetone for solvent; any other suggestions or techniques for getting old adhesive out?

Thanks,

Allen Fulmer
RV4 O-320-E2G
 
I've had better luck using xylene for removing old adhesive crud. Acetone seems to dry too quickly for this use.
 
Randy Hooper said:
Wrap the flange with duct tape. Lubricate the seal. I use DC-4. Hook the seal under the bottom of the flange. Use two round shaft screw drivers to walk it the rest of the way around and behind the flange.
The seal will return to it's original dimension.
Right or wrong, that's the way I do it.
Click to expand...

Randy knows of what he speaks. I did almost the same exact thing. Works like a champ.
 
Cleanliness is next to Godliness

RV-7 flyer said:
I've had a slow leak of dark oil from that nose seal area for a while. This thread finally got me off my butt to fix it. I got the old seal out easy enough but there is nice coating of Pliobond or some type of adhesive that does not want to come clean with acetone and a rag. Any recommendations out there for homemade or store bought tools that are curved that I can get in there to scrape the crud off?

Joe b.
RV-7
Click to expand...

Joe,
I've had good luck using cans of aerosol carburetor cleaner. It's available at any auto parts store. Install the red plastic wand onto the nozzle to direct the solvent where it's needed. Soak the area and wipe with a clean cloth rag [old socks]. Repeat as needed.
Charlie Kuss
 
Seal missing; who knows how long?

After studying the aformentioned Lycoming Service Instruction I determined that the seal was MISSING on my O320! How could this be? But it was and I have flown the RV4 for 60 hours since purchase and never noticed any significant oil consumption or accumulation on the fuselage belly.

Anyway, the crank and case surfaces were surprisingly rust free and clean. I used some 1/4" wide strips of one of those abrasive sponges to clean the seal area.

Then, using the tool depicted in the Service Instruction, and a plastic bag over the flange, stretched the seal (minus spring) over the flange, replaced the spring, applied Pliobond to the seal and case with a little welder's brush, pressed it in place with my fingers, and it was done. Not a big deal after you have done it!

But how did it run without the seal all that time? Who knows when it was left out! You can't see it unless you remove the flywheel and are looking for it! Oh well, it's fixed now.

Allen Fulmer
RV4 flying
RV7 wiring
 
I think you had the two piece and it came out of the bore and than just seperated and ended up out the cowl and into somebody's back yard.
 
Plastic bag is a neat idea

Allen:

I'm glad the plastic bag trick worked for you. AP RVer Roger Ping told me about the idea awhile back when my seal started to leak. He then offered a further suggestion to make sure the seal never comes out or rotates in place. Roger suggested a thin layer of pro seal across the face of the seal and the adjoining case. The pro seal prevents any leaks and also keeps the seal in place.

Give his idea some thought. If you decide to do it, make sure the pro seal cures before operation.
 
Reverse Helix

Curious, Have any of you "seasoned" mechanics ever heard of putting a "reverse helix" on the crank where the seal rides so as to reduce oil leakage ? I used to do this years ago :eek: in an FBO engine shop. The local engine guru used to insist on it. Always wondered if it ever worked, although I never did hear of a complaint of oil leakage.
 
The correct term is lead and you really don't want any if possible. Lead that runs "out" can pump oil under the seal and lead that runs "in" can pull oil away from the seal which can result in premature wear on the seal lip. Its a real problem on high speed shafts might not be as much of an issue at the typical crankshaft rpm.
 
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