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Aerobatics in a RV-6A

Looking for advice on aerobatics in a 6A such as:
What entry speeds for loops, hammerheads?
Hammerheads best done to left or right? What airspeed are you kicking in rudder?
Do you reduce power on back side of loop or just load up the wings?


Advice on Cuban 8's, barrell rolls?

Are you doing aerobatics with passengers? If so are you limiting the G's to make up for the additional weight?

Any other advice appreciated.
 
Patrick,

If you are asking these questions I really think you need to take some training in something like a Pitts! I'm sorry to be blunt, but your hammerhead questions really show a lack of understanding of the basics. I think you should find yourself a good teacher and go learn. Its worth it, these airplanes fly all of these manoeuvers very well, albeit a little under-ruddered for hammerheads.

Regards, Pete
 
Patrick1244 said:
Are you doing aerobatics with passengers? If so are you limiting the G's to make up for the additional weight?
If the weight is less than Van's recommended aerobatic gross weight, then the structure can handle 6g, so no need to reduce the g you pull. If the aircraft is heavier than Van's recommended aerobatic gross weight, then you shouldn't be doing these manoeuvres.
 
Hi Pete

I use to fly competitive aerobatics about 20 years ago... mainly in a Pitts S2B and Great Lakes. I dont think a Pitts would be representative of what you would encounter in a RV6. Lots of Drag in a Pitts compared to the 6. The Hammerhead question was due to some conflicting info I was getting from another RV Pilot.
 
Sorry to be a little condescending, but you can get into trouble quite quickly if you don't already have a good grounding in basic aeros. I don't throttle back on the back side, I also don't pull much more than 3 1/2g. I fly a few barrell rolls 2 up, but that's about it, pulling less than 3g.
I can't tell you the speeds I use for hammerheads as I look outside - at how much aileron I'm using - and feel for the right point. As with all clockwise turning Lycs, hammerheads to the left are easier.

I would still recommend a refresher in a Pitts or an Extra. It doesn't matter that a Pitts is much more draggier, its the practice that counts. Extras are more representative, but more expensive to rent and less available.

Pete
 
Patrick1244 said:
Any other advice appreciated.

I once flew with a guy and showed him some basic lazy8, wingover & rolls. Did a bunch of talking and hangar flying about acro. Told him that it wasn't a good idea to learn this stuff on your own, as things happen fast and can be disorienting at high AOA/unusal attitudes. Anyway, I learned later he split-S'ed out of a roll at VNE. He's much more cautious now.

Be careful out there.
 
Well you are probably going to do it anyway

Any one who teaches them self acro.....

Patrick1244 said:
Looking for advice on aerobatics in a 6A such as:
First consider a G meter? I don't do acro without one and also a parachute.

You can do acro all day at 3 g's. Any more you are doing it wrong.

A split-S started at cruise could kill you, meaning speed will go over Vne easy if entered at a speed that is too high, about 100-110 mph.

Get some dual with an experienced pilot. Fly under acro gross weight. If you can't do that in your RV use another RV for dual instruction. To be legal with two people, both need a parachute. Strangely solo you don't need a parachute. (Anyone want to bet me? I could use the $20.)

The old joke: "Anyone who teaches them self to do acro has a fool for an instructor." Many famous acro pilots had fools for instructors. We don't hear from those who where not successful who taught there self.

General rules:
You should plan on starting (and finishing) all maneuvers at Va or less, about 135-140 mph, at altitudes at or above 3,000 agl. Also before undertaking Acro, you should practice and be proficient on all your private pilot maneuvers, like: slow flight, steep turns, stall (power on/off/accelerated from differnt attitudes), unusual attitude recovery and explore initial stall entry / recovery.

ROLLS
I break it down into two lessons. Lesson one practice leading up to doing rolls starts with first practicing pitching up smoothly to 30-45 degrees and than neutralize the stick (release back pressure). A quick (small) push forward so you unload the plane, but no pitch down or zero g's, just natural. That is the end of the first maneuver. Just lower the nose, accelerate and recover level. Repeat until you smoothly pitch up to 45 and neutralize the elevator quickly and naturally (remember speed 140 max, 3,000' agl and look for traffic).

The second lesson: Series of rapid left and right banks while staying on a heading or point - Start with 20 degrees and increase the bank angle until you can smoothly roll rapidly back and forth w/ out the heading going all over. This teaches you to use larger stick deflections than usual and not to put pitch inputs into it. We all tend to bank, than yank. You don't do that when you roll. In fact you may add fwd stick with full stick aileron deflection as you get more advance.

"THE ROLL" combines the two lessons. Start at Va (about 135-140 mph) with the pitch up, than stick relaxed. One is your natural 45 pitch attitude, smoothly apply a large (near full) aileron deflection in the desired direction and HOLD IT THERE until the world looks right again. Left is easier due to engine torque. You can keep your feet flat on the floor for beginners. Wrong rudder inputs are worse than none. Quickly neutralize the stick when you come around 360 degrees of roll level. You should be in a slight nose low attitude, close to your original heading. Recover straight and level. DONE

Cautions:
DONT RELAX THE ROLL INPUT. HOLD IT ALL THE WAY. It's common to not put enough aileron in or neutralize it during the roll as it progresses to the inverted. Now you're inverted, diving. Lesson is keep the roll going by keeping the aileron into it.

DO release the back pressure before you roll or you'll do a Barrel Roll or worse. That's not what you are after. Too much back pressure can result in a dive or a Split-S. Speed can build quickly in a dive. Remember your unusual attitude recovery and pull the power back to idle if you get pointed down and going too fast, roll to nearest wings level and recover.

I described a basic beginner RV aileron roll, not a perfect one. That's the beauty of the RV's, they roll very nicely with no rudder due to the Frise type ailerons. There's more to it, but this should keep you out of trouble. You can enter these maneuvers faster, but it requires more skill and control. You can pull the wings of the plane if you pull/push to hard at higher speeds.
 
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Part two, you are going to do it anyway, LOOPS

LOOPS
The other famous maneuver is the Loop. Again 140 mph entry is fine. It starts with a maximum 3 G pull-up. As suggest, get a G-meter to learn what that feels like. (YOU NEED A G-meter) Just start with learning what a 3G pull feels like. Similar to the roll practice. Starting a 3G pitch up to and recover. It is not a jerk manuver but a smooth rapid pull about 2 to 3 seconds or so.

Note: A loop and roll entry are similar but DIFFERENT. The roll set up or initial pitch up you do smoothly and can be very near 1G; there is no need to pitch up as abruptly as you will need to for a loop. In a loop however if your initial pitch up G's are too low you might stall before getting over the top. As you get more advanced in aerobatics you will see there are similar elements in all maneuvers.


At the beginning of the loop you will have the max back pressure, it will be less thru the first 1/2 of the loop and than build on the back half, where at the end or bottom of the loop you will have the same back pressure as you did at the entry. The start and end heading, airspeed and altitude should be the same.

After initial pitch up (max g's), stick pressure relaxes slightly but deflection may increase a little; This is because as airspeed varies control pressure changes. By looking outside the plane you determine the pitching rate. It should be constant. Remember you go from near 140mph to near stall in the 50's mph, so control pressure and control response change throughout.

Pilots getting a commercial rating do lazy 8's and chandell's. This teaches you to adjust input based on speed while looking outside to control the plane. These are not aerobatic, you never go upside down, but they are great practice leading to aerobatics. Get an instructor to show you these maneuvers.

The entry is important. Too much elevator (G's) or initial pressure will make a very tight loop. This can result in excess airspeed and altitude loss at the end of the loop. If you really pull hard and keep the pressure up you can do an accelerated stall in the vertical-plane. Not what you want.

Too little pressure at the entry and you will not get over the top and will stall or roll off potentially. The idea is to make a perfect circle. Unfortunately most, including myself, make oval or egg shape loops. The best way to solve that is with a ground observer, coaching you over a radio as you do maneuvers. However for fun a basic loop can be done well under 3g's, egg shaped and all.

As the loop progresses you will lose the horizon over the nose so you need to look over you head, behind you and mostly look off to the right and left wing tips, to keep the wings level. On the top of the loop, too much back pressure can cause a stall buffet. The recovery is relax the back pressure (as you do right side up). When you are upside down you can check the road or your refrence point and make coordinate rudder aileron input to keep on heading.
(Key pick gnd landmarks for all maneuvers)

If you have a fixed prop you may need to make adjustments all the way thru to keep the rpm w/in limits. I have a constant speed prop, set RPM and forget it (nice).

Consider buying a parachute. WHY? You are making big control deflections and loading the airframe over 50% of its limit strength. Things jam and parts break. Also you may screw up and pull the wings or tail off. Acro can be very safe and fun, but there are risks. Consider the acro groups like IAC (EAA) and books on the subjects.

Also you have to look for traffic when doing loops and rolls. Know they self. If you are a master of your plane, can land, takeoff in gusty X-winds, do all the private pilot maneuvers well, within the standards, you are ready. If you are weak in any area you should practice honing your basic pilot skills before doing acro. However Acro improves your skill and confidence. FOLLOW THE RULES, COMMON SENSE, BE CONSERVATIVE and have FUN.
 
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Patrick,

No, I haven't been able to get a full vertical roll in going up, but I have an O-320 with a Sensenich fixed pitch prop (2600 rpm limit), and I haven't tried very hard. Coming down its no problem.

George,

I agree with most of the general stuff you wrote, but I do think it is a little irresponsible posting detail information on aerobatics on a forum such as this, as you never know who is reading. Teaching youself aerobatics (especially in an RV) is often a short term hobby as most people either kill themselves, or frighten themselves so badly that they never want to leave straight & level flight again. I really enjoy aeros and what everyone else to as well - competent training is the only way. There are adequate guidelines in the build manual; I would leave it at that.

I also disagree about wearing a parachute on your own (I know its the law 2 up) - as far as I'm aware there have been no (or very few) documented successful escapes from RVs - so its just an expensive seat cushion. I know this has been discussed at length previously, but before you strap on a parachute make sure that you will be able to jettison the canopy. I have no idea how you might do that.

Yours, Pete
 
Pete,
I agree with your post 100%. If the RV-6 tip-up canopy is built as it was originally designed (no gas struts) the canopy can be easily jettisoned in flight. If you have gas struts, they will need to be removed before flight to enable the jettison feature.
Mel
 
penguin said:
Patrick,

but I do think it is a little irresponsible posting detail information on aerobatics on a forum such as this, as you never know who is reading. Teaching yourself aerobatics (especially in an RV) is often a short term hobby as most people either kill themselves, or frighten themselves so badly that they never want to leave straight & level flight again.

I understand what you are saying, but disagree. I have 6 books on my shelf that explain beginning acro, acro with mostly pictures, advanced acro, glider acro, spins and ACM. IMO the authors of those books aren't irresponsible, nor was gmcjetpilot. FYI one of the most interesting articles I read on acro was by Van himself. Detailed stuff that clearly explained how to fly acro smoothly. As I recall he drew pictures of stick deflection vs time to explain common problems.

I suspect that if someone is willing to teach themselves how to fly it isn't likely that gmc's post pushed them over the edge. If it did, they are better off for it. What's not clear from posted instructions is that MOST of what an instructor does is teach you how to recover when things don't go as planned. Much of my time going through instruction was spin recovery, stall/acc stall recovery and lots of unusual attitude recovery. IMO that instruction can't be learned in a book.
 
Do it at your own risk

penguin said:
I agree with most of the general stuff you wrote, but I do think it is a little irresponsible posting detail information on aerobatics on a forum such as this, as you never know who is reading. Teaching yourself aerobatics (especially in an RV) is often a short term hobby as most people either kill themselves, or frighten themselves so badly that they never want to leave straight & level flight again. I really enjoy aeros and what everyone else to as well - competent training is the only way. There are adequate guidelines in the build manual; I would leave it at that.

I also disagree about wearing a parachute on your own (I know its the law 2 up) - as far as I'm aware there have been no (or very few) documented successful escapes from RVs - so its just an expensive seat cushion. I know this has been discussed at length previously, but before you strap on a parachute make sure that you will be able to jettison the canopy. I have no idea how you might do that.

Yours, Pete
Pete I respect your opinion but let me give you the facts from some one who has given over 2000 hours of dual instruction, some aerobatic. I know many aerobatic pilots, RV pilots included, who taught themselves aerobatics, THEY ARE GOING TO DO IT.

I would rather they have a clue if they do, and they are.

I can't disagree with your opinion, YOU MUST GET DUAL, but to say I am irresponsible is a bit a much. I don't think I'm putting any thoughts into any one's head, that where not already there.

Regarding your comment about first time RV acro deaths, do you have some examples or statistics? I can't dispute your claim, but I'll throw out another unproven statistic/comment. First time intentional aerobatic accidents (started at safe altitude) in RV's is small, nil, minuscule, compared to other accidents from pilot error (dumb pilot tricks). There was one bent plane from a passenger doing a split-S from cruise. In another passenger flying case, a low level pull-up and wing over / stall resulted in hitting trees and the ground. Fortunitly in both cases the pilot and pax survived.

Than there is the guy who does a roll on take off who never has done a roll before at any altitude and crashes. This person is one who takes unnecessary risk. They'll not bother to read what I wrote or get dual. Some might call that natural selection, Darwin style. For those who make some effort to get advice, as I suggested, will have a much better chance of success than no written, verbal instruction.

WHY MAKE AEROBATIC TECHNIQUE & SAFETY A SECRET or ELITE?

There's a 100 books on the subject. For those who want the info it's out there. Providing detailed RV technique is goodness not irresponsibility; it's called teaching.

As far as scaring ones self I know it happens. HOWEVER if, they would have read a book or two on acro or heeded my suggestions for practice, limits and equip I posted, they likely would have NOT scared themselves! The other possibility is they might have not attempted it at all, since I suggest they get some dual first. However people don't always listen, thus give them a fighting chance with some guidelines. It is not super human to do a loop or roll. However any maneuver can result in a stall so by all means be up on stalls (power on/off/accelerate) and recovery.

It just proves my point, pilots will do acro any way. At least I want them to know basics about airspeed, G's, control inputs and common errors if they are going to do it.

My first acro experience, loops and rolls where as a kid in an open cockpit biplane and a T-6 WWII trainer. Years later my first actual PIC acro was while training for my initial CFI, doing the required spin training in a mighty 152 Aerobat. We also did loops and rolls; although not required I wanted to try it. My skill and comfort in flying increased greatly after this, even though I had many ratings and hours. Doing aerobatics is eye opening, even if it's just an hours worth of dual. I went on to later to teach acro in that same Aerobat. You have to dive to do a loop; it was still fun. When I got the RV-4 going it was an unbelievable acro plane (and easy to fly compared to other planes).

I essentially taught myself acro in my RV. I had that small foundation and a short RV-4 demo flight with a roll and loop, but that was it. There is a first time for everything. I also recalled Van's RVator article on RV aerobatic and Duane Cole's book as well. All this went into my first RV's flight acro, Weeee Yip Yee, Yahoo. It was routine and safe.

I have to point out before I do any acro in any plane, I learn the plane. I practice slow flight, stalls, dives, steep turns, lazy eights and chandelle first.

"Know thy self" has never been so true than in aviation. Know your limits. Some people can read something and than just do it. Others need to be shown. You know who you are?

You are right the slider RV-6/7 has a hard time opening the canopy, that's why I am looking into removable pins or some other method to eject. The RV-4, and tips ups are not an issue.

If there are two people a chute IS required by the FAR's, regardless.

There's nothing illegal about teaching your self aerobatics. I discourage it, but I know better what pilots really do. As a teacher I would rather they have some basic info in their head than none at all.

I encourage anyone get more info: http://shop.eaa.org/html/01_iac_books.html

I'm for personal responsibility. A pilot wants to teach them self to do rolls or loops, solo, over an unpopulated area, that's their choice. My post will NOT MAKE someone do aerobatics that would not have done it any way. Like wise it will not keep them from getting training they had planned in the first place.

You're entitled to your opinion. Again get dual is great advice, but to be realistic pilots are going to do it with out dual. I don't like being called irresponsible; but than you're totally wrong, so it doesn't matter. :D
 
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A good precursor to aerobatic flying would be to read Conquests of Lines and Symmetry. After you have flown the maneuvers in your head, go fly with an instructor. Choose one maneuver and stick with it until you are happy with it. Then move on to the next.

Aileron rolls are a good easy maneuver to start with. gmcjetpilot gave an excellent how-to. And I agree, I?d rather see people read about acro and become interested to the point of getting further instruction. It?s easy to do, fun, and will ultimately make you a safer pilot.

Gary
RV-6
 
Aerobatics

This is a good thread and indicates how many opinions are out there. I fly a Pitts regularly and have competed in all categories. I'll still fly some dual with Mike or someone who knows how RV's spin before I do it. It rolls with great ease. I think any body who has read carefully about rolls and potential problems with them is unlikely to get in trouble doing a few, carefully. Still, we've all heard about the roll stopped at 180, then split S, Vne transgression and fatality. Best to get some dual. Don't know if I can get RV-8 canopy off but I'll wear my chute when doing phase I - at least I can try to get out if necessary. Can't wait! I appreciate everyone sharing his/her thoughts. Bill
 
gmcjetpilot said:
To be legal with two people, both need a parachute. Strangely solo you don't need a parachute. (Anyone want to bet me? I could use the $20.)
I'll take that bet..... that with two both need parachutes. I could use the $20 myself :D
 
That was not the bet. The bet was for solo. Read.

Yes you need chutes for two except when giving training for a rating. That was not the bet eithe. Read my signature. I'm a CFI and taught others for CFI ratings. However I still used chutes giving spin training and basic aero.

Do you want to send me my $20 now. I take PayPal.:D
 
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RV-6 Aerobatic weight

Patrick,

When I get in my RV-6A, I'm right at the aerobatic weight. If I have any gas in the tanks, I'm over. I'd be limiting G's to make up for the fuel, much less a passenger.
 
Interesting thread that inspires some comments and questions. My 6A was built with the inverted fuel (flop tube in the left tank) but it doesn’t have inverted oil. Do I really want to do a maneuver like a hammerhead without inverted oil? The spread between my empty weight and aerobatic weight rules out getting dual in my plane. I would love to get some basic aerobatic instruction but I don’t have confidence in any local school in UT. I spend time in So Cal and would be interested in any recommendations out there. The only acro experience I have in the past 35 years or so has been spinning my glider so I definitely plan on some dual with a competent instructor before I do anything in my RV. When I was a kid building time I flew a Citabria (mostly straight and level) and since then have been fond of the type and would like to get acro current in one.
To those who advocate self taught acro , Yes, I could probably relearn myself but it would be more comfortable (for ME anyway) to go get some dual and I’m sure I’d learn more from an instructor than being self trained.
Thanks
Kirk
 
Do I really want to do a maneuver like a hammerhead without inverted oil?

Inverted oil systems don't help oil pressure issues at zero G, but the slobber pot would catch most of the oil that could otherwise be dribbled out without it. But you can do a hammer on a slightly positive cheated vertical line without dumping any oil.
 
Dual training highly recommended

One of the most exciting days in my life was the day I got spin training in my RV6-A. I had about 30 hours in type, 120 hours overall, when I did that training. I learned so much about what to expect and how to recover. It really de-mystified spin recovery. One tip, make sure your RV-6 has the passenger control stick secured before your instructor does the first spin. :)

Later i had an opportunity to put my spin training to use when I was performing a wingover and was too aggressive on the rudder. Of course I had planned ahead with significant altitude so it was a non-event, but could have turned out much worse if I hadn't had that training.

I highly recommend spin training in your plane!!
 
I would love to get some basic aerobatic instruction but I don’t have confidence in any local school in UT.

These guys: https://pilotmakers.com/ do aerobatic instruction out of Provo with a Citabria or an Extra. I went there for my most recent BFR, just did it in a 172, but did talk to the aerobatic instructor. They seemed decent to me. I'm just not willing to pay the $$$ for an Extra since I already have my RV.
 
Teaching YourOwnSelf

My buddy’s Dad was an Air Force instructor back in the brown shoe days. He said flying aerobatics is fun but scary to teach. Akro students try hard to kill you. Naturally, his CFI kid ended up teaching aerobatics until he got the airline gig. Certainly, learning dual is safer that going it alone, but folks seem to do so without too many problems. I do remember a local guy killing himself and a buddy experimenting at low altitude, in a Tiger Moth, of all things. Anyway, if you’re in SoCal, Sunrise Aviation at John Wayne has a great rep and I can also heartily recommend CP Aviation at Santa Paula, our home drome. Full disclosure, my CFI wife does their phase checks and HR. A couple hours dual in a Decathlon is worth many hours figuring it out on your own. Our RV-6 can do akro with both of us aboard as long as we don’t take any fuel. Oh well. My 2 cents: RVs are not great for teaching yourself akro just because they’re slippery airplanes that build speed quickly following student misteaks that end up going downhill, which is most of them. We have a flop tube in the right tank, a carburetor and no inverted oil, so I don’t do any negative g stuff and I cheat the vertical lines to just a bit positive for hammerheads. Never had any extra oil on the belly but I have had the motor quit a couple of times. That adds interest.
 
My two cents...

I have been flying competitive aerobatics and airshows for years so I have seen most every botched aerobatic maneuver in the book. You can read about it and hangar fly with pros but despite the best advice in the world too many novices will find some way to kill themselves. Instruction in any GA airplane is valuable experience and will translate to your RV. Get some instruction and obey a few cardinal rules:

1. Always wear a parachute, even when solo.
2. Always stay within aerobatic weight limit.
3. Always stay within aircraft G limits.
4. Always practice at an altitude that will allow for two mistakes before impact.

Aerobatics are fun and learning to control your aircraft within the entire flight envelope will make you a better pilot.
 
Parachute

A successful bail out in a steep dive requires an altitude well above contest altitudes.
Article in Sport Aerobatics from years ago by John Morrisey is a real eye opener about parachutes and successful bail outs.
In two years of full time instructing aerobatics I only had one event involving aerobatics. FAA Inspector paying to fly the T34. Excellent pilot, had flown the T34 in the Navy. I had gotten very complacent because he was so good. he tried a spit S from cruise speed and we got to Vne and maybe above very quickly. He didn't pull hard enough to break anything. Later T34 wing failures made me think of how close we came and what happens in a low or mid wing airplane. In many cases the wing hits the occupants in the head. Even if the occupants are conscious they may not be able to get out if the wing is folded over the canopy.
In twenty years of acro in a bunch of different airplane I simply accepted that the chute was very unlikely to save me.
 
Thanks for all the responses! I used to work next door to Sunrise back in the old GA Terminal days and didn't know they were still doing Acro Training. Will probably go with CP in Ventura County.
A real eye opener has been talking to people who have bailed out of gliders. They can be a chore for us older guys to get in and out of because of the low seating position but probably easier than many GA aircraft. There is a new safety system called NOAH https://www.dg-aviation.de/en/library/notausstiegshilfe-noah which inflates the seat cushion thereby pushing the pilot out of the cockpit. Could work in many canopy equipped aircraft like the RV.
Kirk
 
Spins

The Cessna 172 is certified in the normal and utility category. Utility category 4.4 G limit with spins and 90 degree banks approved. With something like 15,000 172's having been built only one airplane has experienced a structural failure. This tells us that it is very likely that 172's never exceed 4.4 G's recovering from spins. A proper spin recovery should be less than 3G
Some arbitrary numbers just to make the math simpler: 2000# aerobatic gross weight multiplied by 6 G limit equals 12,000# divided by new gross weight of 2100 equals 5.7 G new G limit.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with modifying the aerobatic gross weight by a modest amount in an EAB aircraft to allow dual instructions in spins. While I am specifically addressing spins, a reasonably competent aerobatic pilot could do loops and rolls in an RV at 3 G for loops and less for aileron rolls.
To me this is far more reasonable than going solo in your RV with the how to do rolls book in one hand.
The airplane MUST be within CG limits and probably will require 5 hours of phase one and a listing of maneuvers performed.
I have a dirty little secret about my only flight in an RV. I will never confess.
 
secret

Absolutely not. I just don't want to embarass the person involved.
there was a long period where I would jump in an airplane with someone I didn't know without much regard as to the airplane airworthiness or the pilot's competence. I don't do that any more.
Purely a personal thing but I am strictly a build from scratch builder. I do like the RV's but I wil never build one. Not sure I even have another project left in me.
 
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