Van's Air Force
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RV-4 VS RV-8
- Thread starter celstar
- Start date
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
It appears from your signature line that you have owned both a -4 and a -8 so you should be well qualified to answer your own question. What do you want to know?
n82rb
Well Known Member
what mel said.
for performance and balance, the lower the number the better they are. you can't beat a light 3 for pure fun. The 4 with long gear is the best looking of the bunch as far as im concerned. but the 8 wins for comfort and cross country flying.
bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
for performance and balance, the lower the number the better they are. you can't beat a light 3 for pure fun. The 4 with long gear is the best looking of the bunch as far as im concerned. but the 8 wins for comfort and cross country flying.
bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
Not so easy choice
How can two similar airplanes be so different?
Both have strong points and weak points. BUT the weak points of the RV8 are quite tolerable. The weak points of the RV4 are more annoying.
So....given the choice of two airplanes with the same equipment and same price...I'd buy the RV8.
But the question is not relevant since the crossover in price is about $65K. That would buy you the very very best RV4, or a very iffy RV8. I bought the RV4 first because that's all I could afford. Then came the RV8 about 4 years later.
So that's the obvious solution... one of each.
And if you can't afford that, you must make a choice.
http://jimthill65.wix.com/rv4-for-sale
Jim
RV4 N444JT
RV8 N37PK
Both currently owned and flying
How can two similar airplanes be so different?
Both have strong points and weak points. BUT the weak points of the RV8 are quite tolerable. The weak points of the RV4 are more annoying.
So....given the choice of two airplanes with the same equipment and same price...I'd buy the RV8.
But the question is not relevant since the crossover in price is about $65K. That would buy you the very very best RV4, or a very iffy RV8. I bought the RV4 first because that's all I could afford. Then came the RV8 about 4 years later.
So that's the obvious solution... one of each.
And if you can't afford that, you must make a choice.
http://jimthill65.wix.com/rv4-for-sale
Jim
RV4 N444JT
RV8 N37PK
Both currently owned and flying
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I'm building a -7 but have owned -4s. If a pre-punched RV-4 kit is ever offered with better plans/instructions. I will place my order the next day. May attempt a non pre-punched -4 when I retire - we'll see.
What it really comes down to is if you need the space for a larger passenger. The RV-4 is a 1 and 3/4 seat airplane. Not a lot of room in the back, and not much room to work with on weight and balance. To me if I'm going to accommodate the passenger, might as well go side by side since that's what the pax will prefer and have the additional panel space, hence the -7 for me. Cosmetically I like the looks of the -4 the best and the -6/-7 second; -8 doesn't do it for me as much. But they're all RVs and amazing aircraft!
What it really comes down to is if you need the space for a larger passenger. The RV-4 is a 1 and 3/4 seat airplane. Not a lot of room in the back, and not much room to work with on weight and balance. To me if I'm going to accommodate the passenger, might as well go side by side since that's what the pax will prefer and have the additional panel space, hence the -7 for me. Cosmetically I like the looks of the -4 the best and the -6/-7 second; -8 doesn't do it for me as much. But they're all RVs and amazing aircraft!
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f14av8r
Well Known Member
RV-4 Limitations
I love my RV-4. But, it is very limited when it comes to passengers / cargo. And, the front cockpit isn't huge either. It is most certainly just a single pilot aerobatic airplane. Trying to find a spot on the envelope to fly aerobatics with anything other than a Sports Illustrated model in the back is practically impossible.
I think it simply comes down to mission. I wanted a great day-dick-around airplane that could occasionally make a cross country flight. The -4 fits the bill.
Also, I do not think you are likely to find a similarly equipped and priced RV-4s and RV-8s. When I was shopping, a -8 with the same age / engine / prop / avionics, was always twenty to thirty thousand more than a similar -4.
I love my RV-4. But, it is very limited when it comes to passengers / cargo. And, the front cockpit isn't huge either. It is most certainly just a single pilot aerobatic airplane. Trying to find a spot on the envelope to fly aerobatics with anything other than a Sports Illustrated model in the back is practically impossible.
I think it simply comes down to mission. I wanted a great day-dick-around airplane that could occasionally make a cross country flight. The -4 fits the bill.
Also, I do not think you are likely to find a similarly equipped and priced RV-4s and RV-8s. When I was shopping, a -8 with the same age / engine / prop / avionics, was always twenty to thirty thousand more than a similar -4.
n82rb
Well Known Member
that is the reality and will stay that way. first the slow build kit price difference is 5k, add a quickbuild kit vs standard 4 now you are up to 17k. most 4's have 320's most 8 have at least 360's there is a price premium on a 360 and up. same for C/S props. Plus the big tickets, you will never get all the things that you can put in a 8 panel in a 4 panel. so the price difference will stay that way.
bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
Saville
Well Known Member
As always, it's a question of mission and money.
The best handling of the two seems to be the RV-4 by universal proclamation. However the -8 is no slouch.
The -8 has 100 miles more range, can carry more baggage, can carry two people plus baggage plus full tanks of gas.
RV-4 maxes out on gross weight with two people and gas - no margin for baggage. Also no margin for 2 chutes if that matters to you.
RV-8 has the possibility of two-up acro; RV-4 is single place acro only.
The RV-4's design point is for an O-320 and wooden prop. You can deviate from that...O-360 and/or CS prop. But handling will suffer. So will useful load.
-8 design point can easily handle an O-360 and CS prop.
When I was looking for an airplane I considered the -4 but only if it had the new design firewall weldments and the long landing gear legs. That reduces the population of possible airplanes considerably.
The price of the two airplanes will most likely not be the same. You can expect to pay more for an RV-8....20-40k more depending upon how it's fitted out.
I went with the -8 and am extremely happy that I did.
The best handling of the two seems to be the RV-4 by universal proclamation. However the -8 is no slouch.
The -8 has 100 miles more range, can carry more baggage, can carry two people plus baggage plus full tanks of gas.
RV-4 maxes out on gross weight with two people and gas - no margin for baggage. Also no margin for 2 chutes if that matters to you.
RV-8 has the possibility of two-up acro; RV-4 is single place acro only.
The RV-4's design point is for an O-320 and wooden prop. You can deviate from that...O-360 and/or CS prop. But handling will suffer. So will useful load.
-8 design point can easily handle an O-360 and CS prop.
When I was looking for an airplane I considered the -4 but only if it had the new design firewall weldments and the long landing gear legs. That reduces the population of possible airplanes considerably.
The price of the two airplanes will most likely not be the same. You can expect to pay more for an RV-8....20-40k more depending upon how it's fitted out.
I went with the -8 and am extremely happy that I did.
Neal@F14
Well Known Member
In the RV4, the longitudinal axis passes through your belly as you sit in the pilot's seat so when you roll it, your whole body rolls with the plane. In the 8, that axis passes through the seat of your pants so it feels more like you're sitting on the plane as you roll it. The 4 feels more like you're wearing the plane, like it's an extension of your whole body. I guess that's why so many folks say the 4 is more of a "pilot's plane" than the 8.
I taxiied an RV-8 from the fuel pumps back to the hangar after a flight with the owner, and found that my feet felt very cramped. The -4's and Rockets that i've been up front in feel a lot more comfortable with the feet farther apart. Maybe just a personal preference thing?
Did you mean Cassutt? Getting into a cassette is pretty difficult.
f14av8r
Well Known Member
Upper Range for RV-4
I'd consider $70K to be top of the range for a RV-4 based on my purchasing experience eight months ago.
To be worth that amount, the aircraft would have to have:
- Show quality paint job, inside and out
- New or low time engine that had never had a major repair or overhaul
- Injected 180 hp
- Constant speed prop - low time / age or recently overhauled
- Current generation EFIS/EMS with a WAAS GPS
- Vertical Power or similar electronic circuit breaker electrical system
- Newer kit with all the common upgrades (long gear legs, electric trims, autopilot, etc.
The biggest driving factor to reach this price point would be the engine. Most of the rest you could find in a 50-60K airplane. I did.
I'd consider $70K to be top of the range for a RV-4 based on my purchasing experience eight months ago.
To be worth that amount, the aircraft would have to have:
- Show quality paint job, inside and out
- New or low time engine that had never had a major repair or overhaul
- Injected 180 hp
- Constant speed prop - low time / age or recently overhauled
- Current generation EFIS/EMS with a WAAS GPS
- Vertical Power or similar electronic circuit breaker electrical system
- Newer kit with all the common upgrades (long gear legs, electric trims, autopilot, etc.
The biggest driving factor to reach this price point would be the engine. Most of the rest you could find in a 50-60K airplane. I did.
a $70k RV4 in the current (Jan 2016) market would be one sweet bird in my opinion.. it'd take something like AX-Os fastback with paint for me. Others have more fun money so I guess it only matters what one individual is willing to spend.
Most RV-4s will fall between 38k to 55k today.. and it depends greatly on how they're built, finished and equipped.
As for the original topic of -4 vs -8... I hope to have my -8 finished one day so I can answer this question. Some say the -4 is a better flier and I sure do love mine.. at the same time I'd like to take my 220lb buddies flying or be able to carry reasonable baggage with a typical sized passenger.
But I think it comes back to the fact that these aren't evenly priced aircraft.. the -8 averages at least $25k more in the current market.
Both are awesome aircraft in my very biased opinion.
Most RV-4s will fall between 38k to 55k today.. and it depends greatly on how they're built, finished and equipped.
As for the original topic of -4 vs -8... I hope to have my -8 finished one day so I can answer this question. Some say the -4 is a better flier and I sure do love mine.. at the same time I'd like to take my 220lb buddies flying or be able to carry reasonable baggage with a typical sized passenger.
But I think it comes back to the fact that these aren't evenly priced aircraft.. the -8 averages at least $25k more in the current market.
Both are awesome aircraft in my very biased opinion.
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RV4 vs RV8
I have owned both. Last year I sold my beautiful 8 and bought back my old RV4! Hands down the 4 is more fun and sporty to fly. I loved my 8 but always missed flying the 4. The only downside to the 4 for me is lack of luggage space but this is minor. If I was really motivated I would add wingtip hatches like my 8 had, which added a significant amount of bulk space.
I have owned both. Last year I sold my beautiful 8 and bought back my old RV4! Hands down the 4 is more fun and sporty to fly. I loved my 8 but always missed flying the 4. The only downside to the 4 for me is lack of luggage space but this is minor. If I was really motivated I would add wingtip hatches like my 8 had, which added a significant amount of bulk space.
ppilotmike
Well Known Member
Depends..
..on the mission. Looking at your signature, it seems like you have experience with both birds, but I'll go ahead and add my opinion:
The 4 is a cheaper, more fun, responsive flyer, but not so comfortable for your passenger on cross country flights. It also takes longer to build, if you go that route. The 8 is still very responsive and powerful, compared to spam cans. It has more baggage capacity, it's roomier and more comfortable for passengers, but it also costs more to aquire, operate and maintain. Tough choice. That's why I want a 10 for traveling and a 3 for fun.
..on the mission. Looking at your signature, it seems like you have experience with both birds, but I'll go ahead and add my opinion:
The 4 is a cheaper, more fun, responsive flyer, but not so comfortable for your passenger on cross country flights. It also takes longer to build, if you go that route. The 8 is still very responsive and powerful, compared to spam cans. It has more baggage capacity, it's roomier and more comfortable for passengers, but it also costs more to aquire, operate and maintain. Tough choice. That's why I want a 10 for traveling and a 3 for fun.
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Do you want your -8 back?
If you thought it was nice before, it's even better now with the new owner's improvements.
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…what about the 4 is cheaper as far as operation & maintenance is concerned? The 4 costs less and therefore, would (presumably) be cheaper to insure. But how would it be cheaper to fly and own? Are parts cheaper on the 4? Do the condition inspections cost less?
If a 4 and an 8 have the same engine (O-320 for example) and same prop, wouldn’t they have the same fuel/oil consumption, same costs for oil changes, and same engine/prop overhaul costs?
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I've done the CI on my RV-8 and helped twice with one on an RV-4 and the effort seems identical. I doubt there is a big difference in cost of brake pads, oil, filters, and other consumables. My RV-8 is a bit easier to inspect since it's a bit bigger, and perhaps because I know it better. Also, the RV-4 I helped with has *everything* since it's crossed a few large bodies of water, and my RV-8 is a very basic VFR aircraft.
The tip over canopy on the RV-4 makes it really easy to see behind the panel, but boy is it crowded back there!
I do agree that a refreshed/prepunched RV-4 (or RV-3) would be awesome, but I could not imagine Van's doing that unless it was a "give it to the interns" project.
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I’d rather say that “Mr Vans” took notice of the mass increase of potential clients
That's a given with any of his designs, more choice more customers
Scott Hersha
Well Known Member
I’ve had two RV8’s, and two RV4’s (and currently building my second RV6 - primarily for my wife). For a “total performance” tandem RV, the RV8 wins because of its versatility in handling qualities and it’s excellent load carrying cross country capabilities - which the RV4 lacks. For light harmonized and fun flying, my current RV4 is the best flying RV I’ve ever flown (O-360, fixed GA carbon prop). There is nothing I don’t like about this RV4, unless I’m trying to carry a load on a cross country - which I seldom do. I consider it an RV4.1 (single seat RV4). For me going to Oshkosh solo with lots of camping equipment is fine. My grandkids love the RV4, because they are still very young and small (6-10). I moved my front seat back 2.75” to make me more comfortable, at the expense to a standard sized adult in the back. I can carry 135 lbs in the back and be within GW and CG limits, but it still feels pretty tail heavy. I personally have difficulty squeezing into the back seat, but once there, seating is comfortable, but a little claustrophobic. I’m 6’2” and 200 lbs. Two standard or smaller people would have a different experience.
If there is any way I can finish my RV6 and still keep the RV4 (unlikely), I’ll do it. I never come back from a flight in my RV4 without a big grin on my face.
As far as cost of operation, similarly equipped, they are all the same. RV4’s are cheaper to buy - about half the cost of a nice RV8, with comparably cheaper insurance costs. It’s hard to make a bad choice in an RV. Identify your mission and buy accordingly.
If there is any way I can finish my RV6 and still keep the RV4 (unlikely), I’ll do it. I never come back from a flight in my RV4 without a big grin on my face.
As far as cost of operation, similarly equipped, they are all the same. RV4’s are cheaper to buy - about half the cost of a nice RV8, with comparably cheaper insurance costs. It’s hard to make a bad choice in an RV. Identify your mission and buy accordingly.
ronschreck
Well Known Member
Aerobatics?
Everyone has covered most all of the pros and cons of each. I'll address the aerobatic capabilities of the two. I flew my -8 competitively at the Intermediate level and have several hours in a borrowed -4. It's a pleasure flying to a contest with the wife, two chihuahuas and four or five bags in the -8 but I have to admit that a -4 with an IO-320 and a composite FP prop is a very nice aerobatic machine for the money. I think it would be slightly more agile in competition and my friend Bill McLean has proved that time and again. (He does inverted spins in competition!) The -8 takes a bit more effort to do figures right but it will do them as well as the -4, just more sluggishly. Check out the video in my signature block and you will see that the -8 is not a snappy performer but the smoothness is noticeable.
I wasn't kidding. They all fit!
Bill McLean picked this up at the 2016 U.S. National Aerobatic Championships. His first Nats in his RV-4.
Bill also walked away with an award for the oldest winning competitor. He was 75 at the time.
I won't post a picture of Bills -4. It needs washing. It could use a paint job too. The upholstery is shot. Looks aren't everything. Bill flies the heck out of it!
Everyone has covered most all of the pros and cons of each. I'll address the aerobatic capabilities of the two. I flew my -8 competitively at the Intermediate level and have several hours in a borrowed -4. It's a pleasure flying to a contest with the wife, two chihuahuas and four or five bags in the -8 but I have to admit that a -4 with an IO-320 and a composite FP prop is a very nice aerobatic machine for the money. I think it would be slightly more agile in competition and my friend Bill McLean has proved that time and again. (He does inverted spins in competition!) The -8 takes a bit more effort to do figures right but it will do them as well as the -4, just more sluggishly. Check out the video in my signature block and you will see that the -8 is not a snappy performer but the smoothness is noticeable.
I wasn't kidding. They all fit!
Bill McLean picked this up at the 2016 U.S. National Aerobatic Championships. His first Nats in his RV-4.
Bill also walked away with an award for the oldest winning competitor. He was 75 at the time.
I won't post a picture of Bills -4. It needs washing. It could use a paint job too. The upholstery is shot. Looks aren't everything. Bill flies the heck out of it!
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
Look at classifieds of aircraft for sale. You will see the average RV-4 asking price is lower than an average RV-8. The lowest priced RV-4 will almost likely be much less than an RV-8. They are both RV's and thus fly like one... great. RV-4's are going to be older and may not have as modern panel, if not updated from the original build. RV-8's don't automatically mean a glass cockpit and they can be over 20 years old, but the introduction date of the kits are 17 years apart. Keep in mind some RV-4's are handmade works of arts and will command higher prices.
RV-4 is an amazing plane, kit released 1979. It was intended to utilize a 150-180 HP engine, fixed pitch prop, but many have put angle valve 200 HP Lyc and constant speed props on them. It has a tip over canopy.
The RV-8 came out 1996 is larger, still a two place tandem, the gear is taller (and different design), cockpit wider, more fuel, and it has a Fwd stowage compartment. It was made for a larger people, larger engine, including the angle valve 200HP Lyc and constant speed prop. Besides the sliding canopy.
Either is great, but the RV-8 is a "better plane", but a good example with the best goodies, glass panel, low time, nice paint, nice interior, might fetch $90,000 to $180,000 for good flying examples. RV-4's can be expensive but a typical one can go for much less than as an RV-8, as low as $40,000 ball park.
If you are BUILDING... RV-8 is a current kit. The RV-4 is also available. The RV-8 has pre punched parts that does not require you to drill the skins, ribs, spar, stringers, longerons. So RV-8 is the only way to go. The RV-4 has all the parts preformed and roughly cut to size like an RV-8 but the holes (mostly for rivets) must be drilled first. The RV-10 and RV-14 are even more advanced kits and easier still to build. No super human ability is needed to build an RV-4 or RV-8 for that matter but it will take time and effort.
BOTTOM LINE There is no bad RV.... they all are a delight to fly.... The RV-8 has more fuel, wider cockpit and easier to build kit and price of kit is irrelevant. The cost to build is driven by engine, prop, panel, electrical, paint, upholstery. The biggest of course is engine, prop and panel, but a custom paint job you sub out can be very expensive. These cost above the kit price are about the same for any RV. However a light RV-3 or RV-4 with a 150/160HP fixed wood prop, basic day VFR panel is a joy to fly. Many RV's get so weighed down with "stuff" they lose some of their feel and performance. If you never flew one it is shocking how nice it is.
RV-4 is an amazing plane, kit released 1979. It was intended to utilize a 150-180 HP engine, fixed pitch prop, but many have put angle valve 200 HP Lyc and constant speed props on them. It has a tip over canopy.
The RV-8 came out 1996 is larger, still a two place tandem, the gear is taller (and different design), cockpit wider, more fuel, and it has a Fwd stowage compartment. It was made for a larger people, larger engine, including the angle valve 200HP Lyc and constant speed prop. Besides the sliding canopy.
Either is great, but the RV-8 is a "better plane", but a good example with the best goodies, glass panel, low time, nice paint, nice interior, might fetch $90,000 to $180,000 for good flying examples. RV-4's can be expensive but a typical one can go for much less than as an RV-8, as low as $40,000 ball park.
If you are BUILDING... RV-8 is a current kit. The RV-4 is also available. The RV-8 has pre punched parts that does not require you to drill the skins, ribs, spar, stringers, longerons. So RV-8 is the only way to go. The RV-4 has all the parts preformed and roughly cut to size like an RV-8 but the holes (mostly for rivets) must be drilled first. The RV-10 and RV-14 are even more advanced kits and easier still to build. No super human ability is needed to build an RV-4 or RV-8 for that matter but it will take time and effort.
BOTTOM LINE There is no bad RV.... they all are a delight to fly.... The RV-8 has more fuel, wider cockpit and easier to build kit and price of kit is irrelevant. The cost to build is driven by engine, prop, panel, electrical, paint, upholstery. The biggest of course is engine, prop and panel, but a custom paint job you sub out can be very expensive. These cost above the kit price are about the same for any RV. However a light RV-3 or RV-4 with a 150/160HP fixed wood prop, basic day VFR panel is a joy to fly. Many RV's get so weighed down with "stuff" they lose some of their feel and performance. If you never flew one it is shocking how nice it is.
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WillyEyeBall
Well Known Member
No difference for competition aerobatics
From a competition stand point, the RV-8s and their magnificent pilots have score just as well as the RV-4s. I’ve never flown aerobatics in a RV-8, so I can’t really compare response or control characteristics. By removing the wingtips and using flat plates, my RV4 rolls a little faster. However, for competition, roll rate is not a judgment or scoring criteria, but the faster you can roll, the less likely the judges can see errors and more time to stay in the box. I’ll also point out Ron Schreck in his RV8 has outscored me on every contest since we started flying Intermediate in 2017. My previous success with competition aerobatics has been from the hundreds of hours of practicing to make those lines perfectly vertical and on 45-degree angles with coaching from expert judges such as Ron Schreck. I think the discussions in this thread have covered the practical differences between the 4 and the 8, but for competition aerobatics, there is really no difference.
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
lower Alabama
From a competition stand point, the RV-8s and their magnificent pilots have score just as well as the RV-4s.
I’ve never flown aerobatics in a RV-8, so I can’t really compare response or control characteristics. By removing the wingtips and using flat plates, my RV4 rolls a little faster. However, for competition, roll rate is not a judgment or scoring criteria, but the faster you can roll, the less likely the judges can see errors and more time to stay in the box. I’ll also point out Ron Schreck in his RV8 has outscored me on every contest since we started flying Intermediate in 2017. My previous success with competition aerobatics has been from the hundreds of hours of practicing to make those lines perfectly vertical and on 45-degree angles with coaching from expert judges such as Ron Schreck. I think the discussions in this thread have covered the practical differences between the 4 and the 8, but for competition aerobatics, there is really no difference.Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
lower Alabama
