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Catto Nickel Leading Edge

WingsOnWheels

Well Known Member
I have a 2 blade Catto on my O-360 powered 6A. At about 110 hobbs hours I discovered numerous cord-wise cracks in the nickel leading edges, both on the face and back. In addition to the cracks, a tap-test revealed delamination of the nickel. Of course the prop had to go back for repairs.

Unfortunately for a slow-builder like me, Catto's warranty is based on calendar time from delivery, not first flight or operational hours. The repair was not covered under warranty. Due to all the COVID supply chain issues, the quoted 4-week repair turned into 2.5 months (including airventure week...boo). The cost of repairs and shipping was a little more than half the purchase price of the prop.

So, my recomendation is to avoid the nickel leading edges. They seem to be a point of failure and the repair cost is high.
To date, the hourly maintenace cost of my FP prop is higher than the engine, including OH reserve.

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Colin,

Sorry to hear about your issues. Can you offer the crowd some more information, specifically when the prop was manufactured and details of storage etc.

I'm having a hard time imagining how 110 hours of operation could cause a failure like you had, so I'm just trying to wrap my head around that. As you might guess, I too have a NLE prop from Catto.

Here's hoping for some uneventful flight hours in the future!

Cheers
 
I have a 2 blade Catto on my O-360 powered 6A. At about 110 hobbs hours I discovered numerous cord-wise cracks in the nickel leading edges, both on the face and back. In addition to the cracks, a tap-test revealed delamination of the nickel. Of course the prop had to go back for repairs.

Unfortunately for a slow-builder like me, Catto's warranty is based on calendar time from delivery, not first flight or operational hours. The repair was not covered under warranty. Due to all the COVID supply chain issues, the quoted 4-week repair turned into 3.5 months (including airventure week...boo). The cost of repairs and shipping was a little more than half the purchase price of the prop.

So, my recomendation is to avoid the nickel leading edges. They seem to be a point of failure and the repair cost is high.
To date, the hourly maintenace cost of my FP prop is higher than the engine, including OH reserve.

My first RV8 ride was with Bob Ellis in Ireland and I recalled he had a similar problem. Perhaps it's from the same vintage. Not too much detail, and Bob no longer has the plane, but here is his post.

http://www.mykitlog.com/users/displ...lis&project=2170&category=0&log=192426&row=76
 
Colin,

Sorry to hear about your issues. Can you offer the crowd some more information, specifically when the prop was manufactured and details of storage etc.

I'm having a hard time imagining how 110 hours of operation could cause a failure like you had, so I'm just trying to wrap my head around that. As you might guess, I too have a NLE prop from Catto.

Here's hoping for some uneventful flight hours in the future!

Cheers

I have spoken with a number or builders that have had similar issues. Not what I would consider a statistically significant number, so just anecdotal. My prop sat for a good 4+ years before first flight. It was stored in the house, so the temperature and humidity changes were minimal. The airplane is hangared and has been since day 1. The plane has flown through light rain 3-4 times and been on the ramp in the rain a couple times.
 
When did you purchase your prop

Would I be correct in assuming that your prop was purchased in 2016-1017?
Did CATTO give any insight as to cause ? Hugely disappointing that CATTO didn't warranty that ! Certainly seems far less than would reasonably be expected. They get good reviews on VAF ....Thanks. Stew
 
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I have a Catto three blade with the NLE from 2013.
So far no issues and I would not have a composite prop without the NLE.
I fly in a lot of rain and damage would be significant without.
 
I have spoken with a number or builders that have had similar issues. Not what I would consider a statistically significant number, so just anecdotal. My prop sat for a good 4+ years before first flight. It was stored in the house, so the temperature and humidity changes were minimal. The airplane is hangared and has been since day 1. The plane has flown through light rain 3-4 times and been on the ramp in the rain a couple times.

I replaced the NLE twice, both within 100 hours of each other and on a prop with less than ~400 TT. After the second time, I told them to repair, but remove the NLE. To their credit, the service was solid, but the product just isn't right.....still. Shouldn't be paying that kind of money and be AOG for 90 days. Like you, I've heard quite a few complaints regarding the NLE. I tell everyone to avoid the NLE if they're going Catto. FWIW, I enjoyed flying behind their props aside from the above issue.
 
I replaced the NLE twice, both within 100 hours of each other and on a prop with less than ~400 TT. After the second time, I told them to repair, but remove the NLE. To their credit, the service was solid, but the product just isn't right.....still. Shouldn't be paying that kind of money and be AOG for 90 days. Like you, I've heard quite a few complaints regarding the NLE. I tell everyone to avoid the NLE if they're going Catto. FWIW, I enjoyed flying behind their props aside from the above issue.

If I had know at the onset of the repair that it was not covered under warranty, I probably would have done the same and just added prop-tape. Unfortunately, I found out the day I received the invoice, after the work was complete. That said, I should have been more aware of what the warranty covered, just two calendar years from delivery.
 
when NLE comes off in flight

Ditto on the nickel leading edge (NLE) with my two blade Catto, except half of one side came off at 6500 feet. Tremendous vibration. As I’m rapidly descending, realize it’s not the engine, and I found an rpm and airspeed that minimized the vibrations and I could maintain altitude. Made it back to home field where I discovered the NLE departure. Replaced the Catto with a wood Performance Prop, and when having it balanced, found the engine was out of balance. Time since last overhaul was 1700 hours. Most of those hours were aerobatic practice with G meter showing +5, -3 Gs on every flight. Catto prop and engine sent back for overhauls. No charge for the prop overhaul with 13 months’ time on prop, 150 hours, and no NLE this time. Great prop and company, but I don’t trust the NLE. The outcome could have been worse.:eek:
 
Ditto on the nickel leading edge (NLE) with my two blade Catto, except half of one side came off at 6500 feet. Tremendous vibration. As I’m rapidly descending, realize it’s not the engine, and I found an rpm and airspeed that minimized the vibrations and I could maintain altitude. Made it back to home field where I discovered the NLE departure. Replaced the Catto with a wood Performance Prop, and when having it balanced, found the engine was out of balance. Time since last overhaul was 1700 hours. Most of those hours were aerobatic practice with G meter showing +5, -3 Gs on every flight. Catto prop and engine sent back for overhauls. No charge for the prop overhaul with 13 months’ time on prop, 150 hours, and no NLE this time. Great prop and company, but I don’t trust the NLE. The outcome could have been worse.:eek:

That sounds like a scary situation. One I could have experienced if I hadn't caught the cracks, or they had progressed faster. Back when the NLE were new, Catto had problems with them shedding in flight. By time I bought mine, I thought the kinks had been worked out.
 
My Catto 3-blade on my Rv7a with io360 also had cracking of the nickel leading edge at about 150 hours. Catto blamed it on a run up on a gravel field that caused paint damage on the back of the prop. I flew it up to them this spring and they gave me a loaner. They took more than 4 months to repair due to Covid and staffing challenges, but it was ok since I had the loaner. The cost was about $800, including a tear down and repair of the paint damage and a new paint job. They added more carbon by the back of the nickel which might help this time around. They said I was not the only person to have this issue, but gave the impression it was uncommon.

Given so many others with the same experience, this sounds like a systematic design defect. It would be great to have some transparency from Catto about what fraction of their RV props have needed nickel edge repair and whether the root cause has been corrected.
 
NLE Cracking, departing in flight

As smooth as these props are, engine and propeller combinations need to be balanced as a package, when installed and every time they are adjusted this should include the spinner package as well (the whole rotating assembly). Its not just the engine there is a spacer/adapter plate&bolts between the crankshaft flange and propeller. It would be good to know if these cracked edges were on balanced props. I understand you can't remedy every variable but checking the box on the ones you can is common sense.
 
As smooth as these props are, engine and propeller combinations need to be balanced as a package, when installed and every time they are adjusted this should include the spinner package as well (the whole rotating assembly). Its not just the engine there is a spacer/adapter plate&bolts between the crankshaft flange and propeller. It would be good to know if these cracked edges were on balanced props. I understand you can't remedy every variable but checking the box on the ones you can is common sense.

I have heard from people with the same issue on balanced systems as well. That may be a contributing factor, but does not appear to be the root cause.
 
Another delaminating leading edge here. Three blade Catto. Less than 100 hours on the prop. Installed in 2018. Was told no longer under warranty. Repair lead time backed up due to supply chain issues on adhesive for the nickel. Installed a two blade instead of going back with the Catto.
 

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Another delaminating leading edge here. Three blade Catto. Less than 100 hours on the prop. Installed in 2018. Was told no longer under warranty. Repair lead time backed up due to supply chain issues on adhesive for the nickel. Installed a two blade instead of going back with the Catto.

Wow, that one is bad. I was hoping maybe the 3 blad would have better luck. What engine do you have?
 
Wow

Just wow. I have about 480 hours behind my 2016 3 blade Catto on an RV6A and O360 in all kinds of weather. It is smooth as butter and almost still looks like the day it was put on. The rear sides show some wear but the nickel and paint on the front is pristine.
 
Well, this is certainly going to be something I'm going to have to watch on every CI. I've got a 3-blade 2015-era prop on my 9A, about 140 hours on it. No indications of cracks or anything at all at the moment. Just a little bit of paint peeled away on the front at the back edge of the nickel out near the tips, probably from when I inadvertently went through heavier-than-I-thought rain. But hearing so many reports of cracks and delamination, it's got my eyebrows raised.
 
As smooth as these props are, engine and propeller combinations need to be balanced as a package, when installed and every time they are adjusted this should include the spinner package as well (the whole rotating assembly). Its not just the engine there is a spacer/adapter plate&bolts between the crankshaft flange and propeller. It would be good to know if these cracked edges were on balanced props. I understand you can't remedy every variable but checking the box on the ones you can is common sense.

I was dynamically balanced...BOTH times my NLE debonded. This isn't normal. Buyer beware. This image is on a prop with 100 hours, all pavement airports.

https://ibb.co/tKZhGPG
 
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Just so folks can read the other side of the same product. I have had at least 10 catto props on my RVs. Used them in all sorts of ways including flying at airshows and racing at Reno. I have had ZERO issues. Including when. #8 spinner screw sheared and hit the leading edge of the prop in a race
 
Just so folks can read the other side of the same product. I have had at least 10 catto props on my RVs. Used them in all sorts of ways including flying at airshows and racing at Reno. I have had ZERO issues. Including when. #8 spinner screw sheared and hit the leading edge of the prop in a race

Catto has a solid reputation. I am more curious as to the root cause of the NLE issue. Engine, environment.....

What engines have you run with the NLE props?
 
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Just so folks can read the other side of the same product. I have had at least 10 catto props on my RVs. Used them in all sorts of ways including flying at airshows and racing at Reno. I have had ZERO issues. Including when. #8 spinner screw sheared and hit the leading edge of the prop in a race

How big of a dent did the screw leave when it hit the prop?
 
Just another data point.
During a pre-buy inspection I found similar nickel leading edge cracking on a Catto 2 blade prop:
i-D8WhJsR-M.jpg

i-2qDzx5B-M.jpg

i-JBM6H8d-M.jpg
 
Just another data point.
During a pre-buy inspection I found similar nickel leading edge cracking on a Catto 2 blade prop:
i-D8WhJsR-M.jpg

i-2qDzx5B-M.jpg

i-JBM6H8d-M.jpg

Can people chime in with the manufacturer date on the props that have LE cracking?
Just curious if it is a new thing or a period of time when things didn't go as planned?
 
My 2 blade Catto 70x70 NLE cracked at 500 hrs. Also had extensive cracking of the outer coating at the blade roots. IO-320 RV-8.
 
Received my prop back today, so happy to get back in the air soon! Refreshed prop looks great. For some reason they painted it a different color, but at this point I just want to fly again, mismatched prop or not.

Before:
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OldProp.jpg


After:
NewProp.jpg
 
I have a 3 blade Catto prop on order and I asked them if I should be concerned about their props after reading this thread. Here is what I got back from them:

Hey George,

We had issues back in 2009-2014. This is when we first started adding nickel to composite propellers. We rarely see issues with our new design and lay up schedule. We are changing our warranty to help cover some of the people who don’t fly their props for the first 2-7 years since they are building. We do a full warranty on anything for the first two years after airworthiness not from the ship date.
 
Very interested in manufacturing dates

Can people chime in with the manufacturer date on the props that have LE cracking?
Just curious if it is a new thing or a period of time when things didn't go as planned?

Would be very interested in this info also
 
Mine was built in that 2009-2014 time period they mentioned. I am within the two years from AW and they did not cover the repair under warranty. Repair cost was around 1k plus shipping both ways, plus building a crate.
 
Is there a reason people go with the nickel vs just get the leading edge tape? Catto says the tape provides the same protection in rain with no need to drop RPM.
 
Cooler

Is there a reason people go with the nickel vs just get the leading edge tape? Catto says the tape provides the same protection in rain with no need to drop RPM.

Nickel is so cool thou.

"Tape, we don't need no stinking tape"

Seriously, I just ordered my Catto with NLE. Last week I was a little disturbed by all this chatter, but the post above with a quote from Catto acknowledging the problem has put me at ease. I think Catto has fixed the problem. It seems the repair, if mine goes bad, is only a few airplane currency units; I think it is still much cheaper maintenance costs that a Constant Speed prop. Just something to look for on pre-flight or yearly CI.
 
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Another thumbs down for NLE. Mine cracked as well as debonded along a 4" long section on the backside of my Catto. Yes - shipping is very expensive from Indiana to California. Just use tape. It works in the rain, and can be replaced an infinite number of times for what it cost me to have the NLE removed.
 
Wouldn't the nickel leading edge be more damage tolerant than just tape? How many airports are 100% free from all sand and small pebbles. Those do a number on props. Harder leading edge material will help.
 
Mine cracked after only 40 hours of use. It cost me $1k for round trip to california and downtime of many months. I'm not willing to go down that road again, so to each their own.

To be clear, I love the prop. Not a fan of the shiny metal just because it sounds cool. I like flying more than fixing.
 
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Wouldn't the nickel leading edge be more damage tolerant than just tape? How many airports are 100% free from all sand and small pebbles. Those do a number on props. Harder leading edge material will help.

Have to disagree. The prop tape is the same as the clear tape used on the front of cars to prevent rock chips in the paint. In this application, softer is better. It absorbs energy, assuming it is thick enough.

Larry
 
FWIW with 6yrs, 500+ hrs and still counting my CATTO 3B prop with NLE it still looks brand new. If you fly IFR like I do, I highly recommend it.
Have to disagree. The prop tape is the same as the clear tape used on the front of cars to prevent rock chips in the paint. In this application, softer is better. It absorbs energy, assuming it is thick enough.

Larry
Except cars are not going at almost supersonic speeds as the propeller tips on our airplanes do. Tape can't hold up to being struck at those speeds. That is why the NLE is from the propeller tips to just before the hub. My propeller came with tape from the hub to where the NLE starts.

:cool:
 
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Nickel leading edge cracking

I have a 2 blade Catto on my O-360 RV-6. I bought the new propeller in 2012 with the nickel leading edge. In 2016 with close to 500 hours on it in I had significant cracking in the middle of one of the nickel edges. I sent it back to Catto and they replaced the leading edge and refinished the propeller (for a reasonable repair cost, shipping cost and down time). I luckily had an old wooden prop I could fly with in the meantime. I think the cracking may have been initiated by a small rock chip on the back of the blade at the edge of the nickel strip. In 2020 I again noticed a single crack on the back and front of one of the blades. Nicole at Catto said to carry out a tap test as part of the preflight and if there was no indication of debonding it was OK to continue flying with it. That's what I am doing and now probably have close to another 500 hours on it since the 2016 repair. Otherwise I really like the propeller. It looks good, is relatively smooth, and fast. If I get another I would probably go with no nickel and just use tape.
 
Not All Nickle Leading Edges Are Bad

Just a brief note here to suggest that not all nickel leading edges are bad. I've had NLE on a 3-blade Warp Drive prop for about a dozen years and it is absolutely bullet-proof. Yeah, it looks a little dull, thanks to all the kamikaze bugs that insist on smearing their innards all over it, but otherwise it is in perfect mechanical condition. Nickel leading edges aren't necessarily bad - the method of bonding the NLE to the blade as well as the material of the blade seem to have a significant impact on durability of the bond.

A friend of mine had an early Catto 2-blade prop on his float plane, or more appropriately, one of the earlier 2-blades offered with NLE. He lost the nickel from one blade; when it departed it skewered the top of the float - ouch! Craig reworked the prop and it has been fine since. Floatplane props take a beating and that prop has withstood the beating since Craig fixed it.
 
FWIW with 6yrs, 500+ hrs and still counting my CATTO 3B prop with NLE it still looks brand new. If you fly IFR like I do, I highly recommend it.

Except cars are not going at almost supersonic speeds as the propeller tips on our airplanes do. Tape can't hold up to being struck at those speeds. That is why the NLE is from the propeller tips to just before the hub. My propeller came with tape from the hub to where the NLE starts.

:cool:
My experience:

I had several small knicks on my catto prop before I put on the tape 700 hours ago. Not a single knick, dent or dimple since installing the tape. My experience shows the tape to be highly effective in preventing damage from both rain (2700 RPM in numerous rainny flights) and rock chips.

Only downside is that it starts to come apart at the tips after around 200 hours or so. NLE has many advantages, but is not the only optoion.

Larry
 
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Nickel or stainless steel leading edges are extremely common on other composite propellors. Just because there are issues with certain Catto props doesn't mean all nickel leading edges have problems.

In the attached picture, the leading edge took a large rock on the forward blade face. The nickel was scratched, but the composite material was blown out the back. Not an RV prop, but shows the level of protection a metal leading edge provides.
 

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NLE Failure mode and root cause?

Has there been a root cause of NLE cracking identified? Is it prop blade bending fore and aft with thrust loads? Twisting? Radial rotational loads ( as in the stiffness of the NLE is carrying a large portion of the blade load due to higher modulus?) Even if there is a nick, the stress riser only drives to a fracture with significant unit loading. The pictures shown all seem to be nicely perpendicular to the blade axis, which seems like a clue.
 
Maybe

So I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. The bar girls got me drunk so I would give them my credit card. What a surprise when they discovered it was declined, I was happy thou. But I digress…..

Curious if the props that are showing NLE cracking lived a hard life? Like maybe the flyer habitually pulls and pushes the plane around using the prop? I could see a condition whereas the prop is getting tweaked because it is being used as a tow bar?

I think the Catto props have superior performance, but that may be coming at a price of needing to be babied a little.
 
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Curious if the props that are showing NLE cracking lived a hard life? Like maybe the flyer habitually pulls and pushes the plane around using the prop? I could see a condition whereas the prop is getting tweaked because it is being used as a tow bar?
They'd have to pull or push at the tip of the prop to even be likely to cause damage... Usually one pushes/pulls near the root, where you're unlikely to flex the blade.

Props experience much higher loads in flight than you are likely to put on one pushing it around on the ground.
 
Actually

They'd have to pull or push at the tip of the prop to even be likely to cause damage... Usually one pushes/pulls near the root, where you're unlikely to flex the blade.

Props experience much higher loads in flight than you are likely to put on one pushing it around on the ground.

Actually i did some quick math, and it appears there is greater bending loads on a prop when it is pushed or pulled on than at any time during flight. The g loading from the rotating blade is so high, that the thrust vector is insignificant on the blade stress as compared to the centrifugal force.
 
I'd like to see the FBD for those calcs. I'm pretty certain that my prop at full throttle can pull harder on the frame than I can when the engine is off.
 
math

I'd like to see the FBD for those calcs. I'm pretty certain that my prop at full throttle can pull harder on the frame than I can when the engine is off.

So like a helicopter blade is pretty floppy when it is sitting on the ground tied up, but yet is very straight and rigid when flying, so too is the prop. The bending moment on the blade from being pulled is really high as compared to flying. The centrifugal force is so high that the pull moving the airplane through the air does not contribute much bending to the prop. I think I calculated the acceleration of the prop blade as, like 10000 g's keeping the prop blade from bending while flying.
 
Knock on wood, but with over 320hrs of hard acro and gyro maneuvers using the Catto three blade, nickel leading edge, on a Pitts S1S, I have not observed any structural degradation of this prop. The prop is limited to 3200 RPM and frequently operates at 3000 rpm, neither it nor the engine show any distress with that RPM visited often. Nor has the Catto two blade, with far more time on the RV4 shown wear or tear. We don't fly in rain and the planes are babied in their own hangar. Perhaps that helps.
 
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Actually i did some quick math, and it appears there is greater bending loads on a prop when it is pushed or pulled on than at any time during flight. The g loading from the rotating blade is so high, that the thrust vector is insignificant on the blade stress as compared to the centrifugal force.
Pull into a vertical climb, and your prop is lifting your entire gross weight, half on each blade (for a two-bladed prop). I doubt you're pulling with that much force when you move it on the ramp.
 
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