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Max Crosswind and what flaps to use for a -7?

A

ao.frog

Well Known Member
Hi.

I'm expanding the envelope now and am ready to establish the x-wind limit.

The max x-wind I do during the testphase will be the limit in my POH according to the Norwegian regulations.

Therefore I want the x-wind to be the real max for the a/c but ofcourse within reason.
So far, I've landed in 17 kts x-wind and it was easier that I'd expected.
My initial thoughs are 20 kts.

What's the x-wind limit for you -7 drivers out there? (with TW)

Also: do you use less than full flaps for stiff x-wind?
 
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Pilot dependent, of course.

As an "A" model, I was unafraid of most crosswinds, up to and including a doozy I got one day at Weiser . 17, gusting 30, directly across the runway. Weiser is almost always a crosswind, so I got to see them almost every day.

As a TD model now, I find it's pretty much the same.

For crosswind approach, I usually go no more than 30 degrees flaps, sometimes less if it's really really nasty.

With that big rudder, a 7 will crank right over for most xwind landings.

Just my 2 c.
 
I have landed my 7 in 27kts direct cross wind with full flaps with no problem. I think it will handle 35kts with ease. You have a lot of control with an RV. The airport I'm based out of has a 10-15kt direct cross wind out of the south almost every morning until about 10 am and in the afternoon it will it will be out of the north. It is not uncommon to get gusty 25kt crosswinds here. I get a lot of cross wind practice so they are not a big deal to me. Don
 
yakdriver said:
I have landed my 7 in 27kts direct cross wind with full flaps with no problem. I think it will handle 35kts with ease.
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I recall a landing(s) at DCU with crosswind 19 gusting 26 across the hangars. The controls on my RV-6 were maxed out and the landing was sorta....noisy. I found my personal limit that day.

The question is not how much crosswind can the plane handle, but how much crosswind can the pilot accommodate, and how much is the pilot willing to put the well-being of his and the plane's health at risk.
 
The question is not how much crosswind can the plane handle, but how much crosswind can the pilot accommodate, and how much is the pilot willing to put the well-being of his and the plane's health at risk.[/quote]

In flying with a lot of other pilots I find that most are not very proficient in cross winds and that is what limits their personal limits. I am a high time tailwheel pilot and early in my training I practiced x-wind landings a lot. I still will do touch and goes in a good strong 15kt + day for fun. Most airplanes will handle 20kt direct x-wind if the pilot is proficient. This includes J3 Cub, big biplanes, T-6 etc. My personal best was 32 gusting to 38 in a Pitts S2B. I also find I do some of my best landings in x-winds because of the high concentration level. Don
 
I do know that at 50 knots, there just isn't enough control authority to keep from being blown sideways. Good thing that airport had another runway other than the "recommended" one. :D

For those few -9 builders out there reading this, I found wheel landings work best but you have to be VERY careful to slow down well below flying speed before letting the tail down and pinning it. With the -9's wing, it is very easy to find yourself flying again when you really don't want to be.
 
max crosswind

It would be nice to see some 'guidelines' from the test pilots out there!!!!

that said, if the plane can fly against a 90 degree, 50-knot crosswind, and I set my limits at 25, I shouldn't be exceeding the control limits of the aircraft.

careful taxiing in that 50 knot wind, a wrong turn would result in climbing right over the hangar, right??? :)

I have made a crosswind diagram that simply shows a 40 knot headwind, and the decreasing numbers at 20, 40, 60 and 90 degress that I will tolerate.
I've pasted it to the glovebox door, and at a glance know whether I am up for the landing or not. (Here in the valley, there aren't a lot of runways that vary much from north-south.) No need to try to figure out those crazy charts in the POH !......you really need to do it in about 10 seconds when the wind becomes apparent in the circuit.
 
yakdriver said:
I have landed my 7 in 27kts direct cross wind with full flaps with no problem. I think it will handle 35kts with ease.
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Don you should film your next landing in a direct 27kts cross wind from the cockpit (or 35kts for that matter if you can do it "with ease"). It would be interesting to see the sock standing straight out and your rudder doing all the work of keeping you on track.

I didn't realize a Pitts physically had enough rudder to handle 32Kts @ 90 degrees off the nose! WOW!

- Peter

PS - My established "Personal Minimum" for a 90 degree cross wind landing in the RV-6 is no where near 27kts! (It's in the teens...I must be a wimp!) Perry I like you're idea of posting them in the cockpit better than the ASA Cross Wind Calculator I spin when the winds kick up!
 
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Some of you guys are amazing...

....and I'd like to know how you do it. The couple of times I've had 15-18 MPH direct X-winds, I had full rudder deflection and needed more...it wasn't there. I fly a fairly light -6A and my Big ol' Air Tractor is placarded for 15 knots and it's all it will handle.

Be careful telling some of these rather...er...how shall we say, "difficult-to-believe" stories to so many low time pilots on here.

Regards,
 
The one thing I try to stress is PRACTICE. No a low time pilot should not attempt to try a 20kt + x-wind but needs to work up to it. You need to limit yourself to what YOU know can handle. Again how many of you or pilots that you know would go out regularly in a 15kt x-wind and do circuits? My home base TWF main runway is 25/07 and it is regularly 10-15kts @180 in the mornings and 320 in the afternoons. We have a cross runway 30/12 but it's more fun on 25. Pierre, I do know the Air Tractor has a low x-wind component. A friend flies a SEAT and they are limited to 12kts as I remember. I flew a friends 6 for several years and it doesn't have near the rudder authority as the 7. Peter, the Pitts has a ton of rudder control. They are extremely responsive in all axis. Don
 
I tried a 37 knot xwind at 90 degrees to the runway in a Skyhawk and couldn't get down, not enough rudder....ended up going to a airport with more favorable runway.

I have landed my Supercub in 25 knot direct xwinds with no problem and a little rudder left, just put it on the upwind wheel and roll out until the stick and rudder run out of authority and you are then practically stopped. I have landed in 37 knot quartering xwinds but had to go around because of turbulance off the hangar because I was trying to put it on the ramp. I landed on the runway with a quartering xwind and the airport manager brought his truck out and shielded the plane until we could get it downwind of the hangar. A short wing, large ruddered RV should have no problem.
I guess I fail to understand what the difference between a 10 knot xwind and a 25knot xwind, it takes the same technique only more input, no magic there only proper technique.

I havn't tested the RV8's limits but it is over 30 knots or I wouldn't be flying much here in Ks.

I think the real limit is what the airplane can handle taxiing to the hangar.

Pierre, I took my commercial ride with 22 knot direct xwinds in a A36 doing ALL the landings required and had rudder to spare.

I believe the problem most pilots have with xwinds is that they give up proper technique in the flare. We are taught 'coordinated flight' from the get go, "keep the ball centered". When in the flare many pilots seem to get overloaded because the airplane is xcontrolled and it feels 'not right'.
My advice is to go up and do a bunch of dutch rolls keeping the nose pointed on a distant landmark to experience what a proper xwind landing should feel like. My .02 cents for nada.
 
second that....

Steve Sampson said:
Pierre, well said! Steve.
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...anything over 20kts crosswind ( truly direct, a very rare occurance) is pushing the capabilities of most airplanes and any RV. IMHO
Sorry. I know too many experienced pilots who scraped the bottoms of a wing tip.
I agree though, the 7 does have more authority than the 6. Still, 25kts gusting straight down the runway keeps my attention. Maybe I am a wimp too? (800hrs tailwheel, multiple aircraft)
 
I'm with this guy

pierre smith said:
....and I'd like to know how you do it. The couple of times I've had 15-18 MPH direct X-winds, I had full rudder deflection and needed more...it wasn't there. I fly a fairly light -6A and my Big ol' Air Tractor is placarded for 15 knots and it's all it will handle.

Be careful telling some of these rather...er...how shall we say, "difficult-to-believe" stories to so many low time pilots on here.

Regards,
Click to expand...

I'm with Pierre

Gusty 15-16 knot direct cross wind is more than I want.

If I had a 50 knoter, I would turn it directly in the wind and land it like a helicopter. On second thought, I would have done a briefing and wouldn't have flown into an area that has that kind of ground wind.
 
Guys. If the cross winds get up to the 40 to 50 kts range why not land straight into wind 90 degrees to the runway if you HAVE to put down. The width of the runway will be plenty for the roll out. Mind you I doubt very much any of you are going to be taxing an RV off the runway in those winds back to the hangers or tie down area.
 
Try it at altitude.

A 27 knot direct crosswind and 70 knots airspeed requires that the plane be yawed more than 20 degrees relative to the air. Go up to altitude, pick a ground course, slow to 70 knots, and see if you can boot in 20 degrees on the nose while keeping the ground course constant. Seems like an awful lot of yaw.
 
pierre smith said:
....and I'd like to know how you do it. The couple of times I've had 15-18 MPH direct X-winds, I had full rudder deflection and needed more...it wasn't there. I fly a fairly light -6A and my Big ol' Air Tractor is placarded for 15 knots and it's all it will handle.

Be careful telling some of these rather...er...how shall we say, "difficult-to-believe" stories to so many low time pilots on here.

Regards,
Click to expand...

Aw come on, Pierre, you mean you're having a hard time believing this 35+kt direct cross-wind stuff in an RV???????? ;)

I know the RV-7 has more vertical tail surface than our -6's but I don't think it would be enough to account for a 15-20kt difference. My RV-6 is plum out of rudder at 20kts direct crosswind, and usually there is so much turbulence from structures on the airport the plane is jumping up and down in 5' leaps and "landing" becomes a matter of trying to time the, uh.......arrival.

I don't claim to be a hotshot pilot, just one that has 900+ hrs in the RV-6 and 500+ in light planes like a J-3. Shoot, at 50kts I could turn the -6 into the wind and land backwards! (If I was crazy enough to try landing in that much wind...) :D
 
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Hey I can handle a 20 knot direct x-wind in my J3 Cub....it's just that I'm landing across the runway.

Ken
 
I’m pretty comfortable with my ‘ol RV-6 (coming up on a thousand hours in it) and I don’t think I’d fly it in a 35kt wind directly down the centerline :). I've been in some pretty spirited stuff, ran out of rudder and had to use brakes to stay on the runway. Happy feet. I don't remember the exact crosswind figure but I doubt it was anywhere near 90* and was probably in the 20kt range (I don't want to do it again, either!:))

b,
d
 
DeltaRomeo said:
I?m pretty comfortable with my ?ol RV-6 (coming up on a thousand hours in it) and I don?t think I?d fly it in a 35kt wind directly down the centerline :). I've been in some pretty spirited stuff, ran out of rudder and had to use brakes to stay on the runway. Happy feet. I don't remember the exact crosswind figure but I doubt it was anywhere near 90* and was probably in the 20kt range (I don't want to do it again, either!:))

b,
d
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AND THAT WAS ON TINK!!!
 
One more data point . . .

In the past, my aircraft were hangared at an airport in Eastern Wyoming--Pine Bluffs (82V). The runway was 50 ft wide. It has since been widened to 75 ft. 20 kts of direct (90 degree) cross wind is not unusual at 82V. C172, C182, CT210II, M20R, RV6 were all capable of handling 20 kts of direct cross wind with some grace and so were most local pilots if their flying skills were current and if the gust factor was low (less than 5kts). A 30 degree crab, coming down final, is not the norm but it certainly happens.

I'm no great stick . . . So, I practiced. Now, 20 kts gusting to 30 kts across the narrow runway at 82V required the pilot to be particularly prepared to go around. And, at my skill level, that's when it started to become exponentially more likely that metal might get bent.

Of those aircraft, the Ovation seemed the least capable in the landing flare because it seemed to lack sufficient aileron authority. I am open to the possibility that the Ovation's supposed lack of aileron authority is just my mental issue because the yoke travel for the ailerons was only about 60 degrees from horizontal(from memory) whereas the Cessnas were 90 degrees plus (from memory).

In my opinion, the C172 and RV6 tie for least capable of taxiing in high winds because of the relatively great wing span/relatively light weight/high wing configuration of the C172 and the relatively low weight upon and small footprint of the RV6’s tailwheel/strength required to fully displace the rudder of the RV6 while it's tailwheel is dragging on the ground. While taxiing in high winds, I have broken (stretched open, actually) an otherwise good/standard issue tailwheel chain clip--the one that attaches to the rudder bracket. That made me more thoughtful . . .

FWIW, my cross-wind technique in the RV6 is full flaps, 2 pt "attitude" referenced touchdown (which is not fully stalled), dump all of the manual flaps as soon as any wheel makes contact, add a bit more aileron than was required to maintain the runway centerline during the landing flare, and start easing into the brakes. No offense to anyone, but you couldn’t give me electric flaps in my RV6. If the crab angle while flying final is particularly high (approaching 30 degrees), then I alter my technique by configuring the aircraft with just one notch of flaps.

Too much aileron at touchdown or during the roll out seems to force the upwind gear leg of the RV6 to “load up”/yield/oscillate resulting in a squirrelly and discomforting (scary) ride. In that situation, IMHO, the pilot should keep working the feet and ease up on the aileron. I’ve never had the upwind wing of the RV6 try to raise up as a result of easing up on the aileron. As an aside, it’s often possible to lift the downwind wing of the RV6 during the rollout. In contrast, the C172’s wing would come up and the C182’s wing felt like it might come up without full aileron during the rollout on a particularly windy day.

There is no doubt that many of the pilots commenting here about landing in even higher crosswinds have skills that far exceed mine. I’m inclined to believe most of what’s been posted here and chalk up the remainder to difficult data acquisition conditions.
 
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OK, the 9A may be a different bird, but the rudder is the same. I have had 20 gusting to 28 at 45 degrees with pretty heavy turbulence and had no problem. Landing with 20 direct cross is easy--BUT, at least for me and my plane, takeoff is more difficult. I have had to hold downwind brake for the first 30 feet or so to keep from turning into the wind. I find that strange and have not experienced that in anything else. I may not give enough initial rudder. Anyway, I blame the castering nosewheel. It couldn't be technique!

I am going to take the crosswind course at xwindsim.com I have flown with Brad and I believe he could teach me a lot. Cheaper than scraping the bottom of a wing.

Bob Kelly
 
I learned to fly in northern Nevada...I never thought a stable sustained x-wind was hard to figure out....but the gusting can sometimes make things a little...tense. This would be especially typical if the windsocks at each end of the runway were pointed in opposite directions...
 
Boy, you guys have been busy..

...since I went home last night.

FWIW, I have an -8 rudder (counterbalanced) since it's a late -6. Guys, I've done knife-edge flight in Pittses and I owned a T-6 plus several models of Air Tractors with Pratt 1340's and now a turbine. I can roll either wheel all the way down the runway (and have scraped a wingtip) in any of my airplanes and teach this too. I have over 16,000 hours (and more landings than that), in all sorts of conditions and 39 years of ag experience and when my airplane/s run out of rudder in a crosswind, what's left? Brakes...unfortunately, in a stiff crosswind, that tire's in the air, so what do you do if the rudder is maxed out? Land sideways and risk a groundloop?

For you newbies, take my advice and limit yourselves to 15 knots until you really, really get to be as good as some of these guys.

I'm done with this topic,
 
Back to the subject...

The original poster wanted to know how much flaps to use in a 7 in a crosswind.

My experience with my 6A was that you always use full flaps for every landing unless the flaps aren't working. Without flaps, the approach in an short-wing RV will be about 90 mph and your nose will be so high in the flare that you'll catch the slightest gust.

On an RV, flaps have no negative effect on crosswinds. I used to keep my plane at Weiser -- anybody in the Houston area will know what that means. Use the flaps. It's not a Cessna.

In my opinion, the RV limiting factor in a crosswind is not the rudder, it's the stubby wide chord wing. You can't use a forward slip to hold it against a crosswind because you'd need so much bank angle that you'd scrape the wing. So you have to crab it almost to touchdown and kick it out during the flare. At that point, you want to be moving slow enough to land it right now without any float, before the wind has a time to push you off the centerline -- you need all your flaps.

The RV really is a great crosswind plane once you master it, but 50 knots? Give me a break! I once did about 30 at Great Bend Kansas, but only because I was a dumb-*** and arrived with empty tanks and didn't have enough sense to use the drag strip or the perimeter road. It was a handful even for this Weiser pilot. However, the toughest part was getting out of the plane at the tiedown, since at the time I didn't have a parking brake. I had to honk for the lineboy (yeah, I had a horn in my plane -- go ahead and laugh!)
 
Crosswind

Well Said Pierre,

Good advice. 36 knots is the max crosswind for the 747-400, and thats got a huge rudder (i know its all relative!). Not a problem. For the RV 15 knots is a good number. Up to 20 if you get caught out somewhere. More is possible but if the original poster is looking for a number, 15 should be it. Expand on it with experience. Gradual steps.
 
I re read the original post. Alf has already landed with a 17 knot xwind and reported that it was easier than expected.

I was hesitant about posting on this thread because I was guessing it would morph into a pilot measuring contest and stray from the original question.

I can't answer Alf's question, he wants maximum xwind his airplane is capable of. I flew a big ole long wing Supercub this morning in direct 20 knot xwinds and it was a non event....really no problem at all.
I have been in the 27 knot range in the RV8 and still had plenty more capability. I suspect the RV would be capable of at least 30 knots, with proper technique maybe more.
 
steveKs. said:
I havn't tested the RV8's limits but it is over 30 knots or I wouldn't be flying much here in Ks.

I think the real limit is what the airplane can handle taxiing to the hangar.
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I live about 65 miles S.E. of Steve and can vouch for the high winds in this area. We have 600 more of those big wind generators supposed to go up around here.

I only have about 60 hrs on my 7 and I could use some X-wind pointers. I have just taught myself how to wheel land this thing and I sure can't brag much on my three pointers. About all I can say is that some are very pretty and some... well not so much. Other than the dutch rolls, and working up incrementally can you guys recommend anything else to avoid bending metal and still be able to safely improve my skills. I have a 100' wide paved 17/35 and a 60' 5/23 cw runway to work with. There is also a grass strip at Ashland that is pretty wide 3100 X 300 with turf in fair condition.

I went up a few days ago and tried a 15 knot direct X-wind on the 60' wide runway. The first one ended up in a go around after getting pretty squirrely. The second one I managed to get down okay but it sure wasn't anything to brag about. There was about a 5 knot gust factor. I was using about 20 deg. flaps, crabbing till just above flare height, kicking it straight, dropping the upwind wing, touching down and rolling on the upwind tire and doing pretty good till the downwind wing started dropping. I was trying to three point but the tailwheel was a little late both times. Suggestions??
 
Joe, Ashland would be a great airport to expand your comfort zone. Begin conservatively and work your way up from there. My primary instructor/crop duster told me when I asked him if he would be teaching me to fly said "You will teach yourself to fly, Iam just here to make sure you stay alive until you do."

[email protected] if I can be of any help.
 
Runway width has a lot to do with this issue. I would be comfortable landing my RV-8 in 25 or 30 knots of crosswind on a 75-foot wide runway. My home field has one runway that is 30 feet wide. When the crosswind exceeds 20 knots I look for an alternate. It's not a matter of rudder travel; it's a matter of being quick enough to manage rudder and brakes during strong gusts and those parts of the runway which are blanked out by adjacent hangars and homes.

My personal criteria is this: How much direct cross can I handle comfortably while keeping the runway cernterline BETWEEN THE MAIN GEAR during the entire landing and roll-out!
 
Use the rest of your flaps

Caveman said:
II was using about 20 deg. flaps, crabbing till just above flare height, kicking it straight, dropping the upwind wing, touching down and rolling on the upwind tire and doing pretty good till the downwind wing started dropping. I was trying to three point but the tailwheel was a little late both times. Suggestions??
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Use the rest of your flaps. It will help you keep the nose lower in the flare. The flaps reduce your angle of attack, which is what you want in a crosswind -- the wing is a much bigger gust catcher than the flaps.

If you're losing it when the other wheel drops, you're not getting enough aileron in. By the time both wheels are touching, you'll have almost full aileron into the wind. And if you're rolling a long time on one wheel, you were going too fast to begin with. You don't need to add much gust factor in an RV -- you've got enough engine to power out of just about anything.
 
Personally, I think anything over 15 in an RV, on a direct cross is taking a chance, for that matter on any low wing. Why, because to land it you need a lot of rudder, but don't forget the airlerons. You need input on those as well. If you do a proper landing, down the center line, you will take a chance at hitting the wings on the inboard side. I'm not trying to make liars out of people, but those who say thay can do 45 direct cross are not telling things right. I wouldn't want to try it. I love my airplane. So lets get back to the basics and report proper. I think with the stall speed of the airplane, it can do 25 safely, but you need to watch that inboard wing, a sudden gust and you will be responding more than looking and a hit on that inside wing, yup, very possible.
 
Not all crosswinds are the same

The same amount of wind can create very different results depending on the airport. My home field is surrounded by trees and is on top of a hill. It even makes a makes a big difference what part of the runway you land on. 15 knots of wind can be a real hand full there while at other fields it would be a non event. Be careful of using hard numbers, you might get a nasty surprise.
 
Agreed

Randy Walls said:
The same amount of wind can create very different results depending on the airport. My home field is surrounded by trees and is on top of a hill. It even makes a makes a big difference what part of the runway you land on. 15 knots of wind can be a real hand full there while at other fields it would be a non event. Be careful of using hard numbers, you might get a nasty surprise.
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I stand by my statement that a true "direct" crosswind is very rare. Airports and runways are typically designed for the prevailing winds. Also, what is reported from the on field weather station or the indication of the "calibrated" wind sock, are just a relative measure of what is happening at a given place and/or given time on the field. Unless you have someone on the ground, at your point of touchdown, with a wind measuring instrument, we are just making an educated guess as to the wind velocity and angle. As stated, there is no such a thing as a hard number. Perhaps someone can chime in on how the certified products establish the spec?
As far as the original posters question, practice, practice, practice. Try the various flap positions, power settings and airspeed until you feel comfortable with what you can do across a wide range of variables. You should be able to execute a decent cross wind landing in any configuration, wheel or three point, full flaps or none. You will learn what works best for the different conditions. Knowing how your airplane will, or wont, perform will help you gain the confidence you need and the limits you put on yourself as such.
Above all, NEVER be afraid to Go Around. More airplanes are lost trying salvage a bad landing than where ever lost executing a go around.
 
Jon makes a very good point, the go around. When I am sliding down final to a challenging landing I do what most of us were taught "wiggle my toes" then I wiggle my fingers to wake up my throttle hand. The power lever is often a get outta jail free card if things go south. Power will wake up the rudder and get you back to flying if you havn't let things go too far.

I learned xwind landings in kind of a weird way. I believe we can suffer from overload when things start happening in a hurry. I compartmentalize.. I tell my feet that "all they need to do is keep the airplane straight with the centerline, I will do the rest". I know...weird but it worked for me.
 
Nothing wierd about that at all...

steveKs. said:
I learned xwind landings in kind of a weird way. I believe we can suffer from overload when things start happening in a hurry. I compartmentalize.. I tell my feet that "all they need to do is keep the airplane straight with the centerline, I will do the rest". I know...weird but it worked for me.
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...In my opinion, that is exactly how you should approach it. I agree that we often get caught up with technique and forget about the basics of what the airplane is supposed to do. As an example, I often peform wing over, barrell and aileron rolls, and other basic aerobatics in extended trail in formation. If you follow the other airplane through the manuever, it is a piece of cake. If you start thinking about your control inputs, you screw it up 100% of the time.
"Fly the Airplane"
 
JonJay said:
...In my opinion, that is exactly how you should approach it. I agree that we often get caught up with technique and forget about the basics of what the airplane is supposed to do. As an example, I often peform wing over, barrell and aileron rolls, and other basic aerobatics in extended trail in formation. If you follow the other airplane through the manuever, it is a piece of cake. If you start thinking about your control inputs, you screw it up 100% of the time.
"Fly the Airplane"
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what controls? you talking the one that beeps me(wife) and tells me it's time to come home. Oh! you're talking about the one that's between my legs.
 
That makes a lot of sense

jonbakerok said:
Use the rest of your flaps. It will help you keep the nose lower in the flare. The flaps reduce your angle of attack, which is what you want in a crosswind -- the wing is a much bigger gust catcher than the flaps.

If you're losing it when the other wheel drops, you're not getting enough aileron in. By the time both wheels are touching, you'll have almost full aileron into the wind. And if you're rolling a long time on one wheel, you were going too fast to begin with. You don't need to add much gust factor in an RV -- you've got enough engine to power out of just about anything.
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Jon,

I think you may have just described my cure. I can control the airplane and keep it straight, without much problem, even with the gusts. I'll bet I'm fast and not quite getting enough aileron in. I've been flying final at 85 mph or so and trying to bleed off speed as I cross the fence, but I did add a couple mph because of the wind. I did go quite a ways down the runway on the upwind tire, too. (I was kind of pround of myself). So I'll bet you are correct there, as well. I understand the power to weight deal getting me out of trouble and that is what I've been doing. What I don't want to do is put too much side load on the gear. I would expect the 8's are better in that regard? Thank you for the pointers.

Joe
 
steveKs. said:
Joe, Ashland would be a great airport to expand your comfort zone. Begin conservatively and work your way up from there. My primary instructor/crop duster told me when I asked him if he would be teaching me to fly said "You will teach yourself to fly, Iam just here to make sure you stay alive until you do."

[email protected] if I can be of any help.
Click to expand...

Thanks Steve... check your e-mail, please.

Joe
 
Thanks folks...

Hi again.

Thanks for all the inputs guys. I've learned alot from reading them and my plan to establish the X-wind limits in my POH are as follows:

1) Plan for a limit of 20 kts and practice landings with x-wind gradually increasing from to 10 kts (my present "comfort zone") to 20 kts.

2) Use 15 kts as the max x-wind for planning purposes until further.

3) Use full flaps for every x-wind landing.

4) Use the trick about the feet before every landing from now on.
That was really a good one so thanks Steve!
(I tell my feet that "all they need to do is keep the airplane straight with the centerline, I will do the rest"...)




I've about 200 TW landings total now (about 150 in RV's) and most of them are with x-wind of 0 to 10 kts, so my TW x-wind experience are limited.

Bonus #1:
The RWY-direction at my local airport are 90* to the most common wind direction during summer (summerbreeze). Therefore I can more or less get the x-wind that I want by varying the time of day that I go flying.
Example: 0 x-wind in the morning and increasing gradually to 25 kts in the afternoon and decrasing to 0 again after sunset.

Bonus #2:
A grasstrip with the RWY-direction straight into the summerbreeze is within 5 minutes flying distance from "my" airport and this grasstrip is only about 20 mins walking distance away from my house.
Therefore I'll just bring tiedowns with me on every flight (no hangar at the grasstrip) and walk home after landing.

Thanks again guys! Let the summer(breeze) come and the X-wind training begin... :)
 
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Here's what I'm dealing with

JonJay said:
I stand by my statement that a true "direct" crosswind is very rare. Airports and runways are typically designed for the prevailing winds. Also, what is reported from the on field weather station or the indication of the "calibrated" wind sock, are just a relative measure of what is happening at a given place and/or given time on the field. Unless you have someone on the ground, at your point of touchdown, with a wind measuring instrument, we are just making an educated guess as to the wind velocity and angle. As stated, there is no such a thing as a hard number.
Click to expand...

We have a wind shift every time a front comes through so the wind situation is pretty dynamic as you allude to, Jon. If the link below works, it shows what is pretty typical of what I deal with on a day to day basis as this wind forecast chart comes from my home base. (You can move back and forth 2 days at a time by clicking the buttons). Look at noon on March 25th. The charts shows a relatively benign wind speed of 11 kts, but it gusting to 28 kts. This sharp gust factor of 17 kts. is what plays with you even if the wind is straight down the runway. Imagine what it does to you on a crosswind and you can see what we deal with around here. For another example with a more direct crosswind look at March 28th at 7 am. The wind isn't all that bad, its the gust factor, and believe me they can be quick, sharp, sudden, and frequent.

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClic...36.42490&textField2=-99.40450&site=all&unit=0
 
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Wow...

Caveman said:
We have a wind shift every time a front comes through so the wind situation is pretty dynamic as you allude to, Jon. If the link below works, it shows what is pretty typical of what I deal with on a day to day basis as this wind forecast chart comes from my home base. (You can move back and forth 2 days at a time by clicking the buttons). Look at noon on March 25th. The charts shows a relatively benign wind speed of 11 kts, but it gusting to 28 kts. This sharp gust factor of 17 kts. is what plays with you even if the wind is straight down the runway. Imagine what it does to you on a crosswind and you can see what we deal with around here. For another example with a more direct crosswind look at March 28th at 7 am. The wind isn't all that bad, its the gust factor, and believe me they can be quick, sharp, sudden, and frequent.

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClic...36.42490&textField2=-99.40450&site=all&unit=0
Click to expand...

That will keep you on your toes!
 
Crosswind landings at OSH

A few years ago there was an approx. 15 knot wind blowing directly from the west during Sunday afternoon arrivals at Oshkosh. They were landing on 18. I saw two airplanes get damaged in the space of an hour, one of which brought out the fire trucks. There were a lot of scary-looking landings (including RVs), and very few graceful ones.

Be careful!
 
A little resurrection of this thread just to tell my story from today and bits from earlier in the week. I'm convinced I was the cause for the rotten east coast weather for the past week. It's because I selected this week for vacation. :rolleyes: We planned to go to Acadia (Bar Harbor) but the weather nixed that. We reviewed and decided to go the New Orleans (fun!). 7 IFR flights, 5 approaches and combined 2.5 hrs of IMC (some of it really crappy) in the last few days and I'm pooped! (kudo's to the airline guys for doing this daily).

In regards to crosswind component, I was shooting a GPS approach into KAVL (Asheville) today on an airplane retrieval flight. (Had to park at KTYS and rent a car yesterday in order to sleep in my own bed last night). The approach to Asheville was very turbulent and the tower said the previous craft noted over 20 knot direct x-wind at touchdown with 15 kt shear on top of that. The GPS was showing about 36Kt as I was inbound from the FAF. Great. I had seen 50 knots on the nose during the cruise phase.

Anyway, I popped out of the clouds and did not see the runway until I looked severely out the left of the canopy. :eek:
I changed from a crab to a slip with my left foot well into the rudder. Amazingly, I started drifting off runway centerline. I crabbed back to centerline and as someone said earlier, the rudder pressure is somewhat high so I gave it all I could and banked more into the wind when going back to the slip. Actually noticed I was starting to slide out of the seat towards the flap actuator cover. :eek: Yes, my belts were cinched but obviously not enough.

I noticed a 26 knot indication on the PFD as I crossed the numbers. It was gusty as heck so the stick was being stirred like mad while I prayed the wind rhythm would not screw me at touchdown. Thank goodness the runway is big because I touched down left of centerline.

SO... I think that was all me and the plane could do. 26 gusty knots direct 90 deg. I've landed in higher winds easily but they were never direct 90 like this.

Following is a gratuitous pic from yesterday. I have never seen Kelvin-Helmholtz cloud formations while in the drivers seat. Seen it in books and stuff.

20004532825611c2519872c.jpg
 
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alf,

disclaimer that we have a nosedragger -7A.

i use full flaps all the time, no matter how much wind. (practiced different settings and it is what feels most comfortable overall)
i think it may have to do with the better airflow over the horizontal stabilizer due to the slightly higher power setting on final, which results in better control authority. also, pitch tends to be more distinctly nose up in the flare / thereby having more leeway for the nosegear.

as to the x-wind limit, that is obviously a difference to the tailwheel.
my max to date is 30kts steady at 90? to the runway during the greek isles trip at Sitia (Crete) a few years back. was pushing my decision making limits due to ops constraints (lack of alternatives with fuel etc...) in the end, the landing was almost a non-event, didn't feel like i was running out of control authority at all... but the crab angle was somewhat creepy, so was the decrab / still somewhat sideways touchdown.

what proved to be the most tricky part was actually the takeoff afterwards! there was an extreme weathervaning tendency that had to be corrected, more pronounced than at landing, quite unexpected compared to the usual "right foot" required. the right foot actually made things worse in a relatively unanticipated manner.

i have a picture of proof of that landing (gps puck on the left is more or less centerline)
dsc_0439.jpg

dsc_0450.jpg


regards
bernie
 
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