Van's Air Force
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Tools to avoid
- Thread starter rwarre
- Start date
vmirv8bldr
Well Known Member
Avoid? No. Add? Yes!
Tools to avoid.... Cheap tools. (Inexpensive tools are ok, but don't get poor quality *cheap* tools.)
example: Cheap drills often "wobble" because the chuck isn't straight. Good drills are straight, and make holes easier to drill precisely.
I haven't found a need to avoid any tools per se. Get one of the RV toolkits from a respectable vendor such as Avery or Cleveland. More often, I've found myself "making" or altering existing tools for some purpose, and outright buying additional, "optional" tools. In fact, these vendors usually have some discount or sale going on during OSH and/or other large gatherings, like SnF.
All of the tools have been easily worth what was paid.
My #1, wouldn't live without it, tool is the pneumatic squeezer. Expensive, but worth EVERY penny!
Tools to avoid.... Cheap tools. (Inexpensive tools are ok, but don't get poor quality *cheap* tools.)
example: Cheap drills often "wobble" because the chuck isn't straight. Good drills are straight, and make holes easier to drill precisely.
I haven't found a need to avoid any tools per se. Get one of the RV toolkits from a respectable vendor such as Avery or Cleveland. More often, I've found myself "making" or altering existing tools for some purpose, and outright buying additional, "optional" tools. In fact, these vendors usually have some discount or sale going on during OSH and/or other large gatherings, like SnF.
All of the tools have been easily worth what was paid.
My #1, wouldn't live without it, tool is the pneumatic squeezer. Expensive, but worth EVERY penny!
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RVbySDI
Well Known Member
And heavy as a hippo!! The hefty weight has kept me from using this tool. Whenever I have used my hand squeezer for items in tight places I have wondered how I could have gotten the pneumatic squeezer into that space. Usually the answer is: "I couldn't".vmirv8bldr said:
Everyone's preference is different but this would not be my choice for tools "I can not live without". In fact, I might be inclined to say the pneumatic squeezer would be one I would say to avoid. No offense to those of you who love it but it is a very expensive tool with a restricted usability window. Yes it is nice to have when you need it but the reality is in building the RV's you really don't need it.
My .02!
FredMagare
Well Known Member
RVbySDI said:
It's a personal preference, but the pneumatic squeezer can turn a three-handed job into a two-handed one! So worth it, I've got two with three different yokes. (If I'm using one yoke mainly but need another for a specific rivet I can just grab the other squeezer.)
jmartinez443
Well Known Member
Definitely get the pneumatic squeezer
I would definitely put the pneumatic squeezer in the must have column.
I never bought the aluminun snips. I use a jig saw or a band saw with 24TPI blades for cutting my parts (here's how I cut my stiffeners http://www.rv8alog.com/empennage/rudder/r1.htm).
The next two tools go in the nice to have (but I'm glad I bought them) category: pneumatic cleco pliers and pneumatic popriveter. Only get these if you have an extra couple of hundred dollars to spend.
I would definitely put the pneumatic squeezer in the must have column.
I never bought the aluminun snips. I use a jig saw or a band saw with 24TPI blades for cutting my parts (here's how I cut my stiffeners http://www.rv8alog.com/empennage/rudder/r1.htm).
The next two tools go in the nice to have (but I'm glad I bought them) category: pneumatic cleco pliers and pneumatic popriveter. Only get these if you have an extra couple of hundred dollars to spend.
RVbySDI
Well Known Member
I agree that it is a personal preference. I also do not down play anyone's opinion who thinks it is a good tool. But at $450+ your two pneumatic squeezers you mention with the third yoke is approaching a price range that would draw the attention and chastisement of many a household financial analyst (read as WIFE!!). I have a hard time justifying one of these expensive tools, let alone two of them!FredMagare said:
vmirv8bldr
Well Known Member
Argument for the treasurer
You: "But honey, this thing will allow me to dimple and rivet about twice as fast as otherwise, and my forearms won't be burning. That means I can spend significantly more time with you, and still have strength to give you a backrub!"
Treasurer: "Will two of them double that affect?
**Chose words wisely. say that you will BE ABLE TO, but don't actualy commit to it, or your forearms will be burning from the daily backrubs!
RVbySDI said:
You: "But honey, this thing will allow me to dimple and rivet about twice as fast as otherwise, and my forearms won't be burning. That means I can spend significantly more time with you, and still have strength to give you a backrub!"
Treasurer: "Will two of them double that affect?
**Chose words wisely. say that you will BE ABLE TO, but don't actualy commit to it, or your forearms will be burning from the daily backrubs!
They Yard has rebuilt pneumatic squeezers for $295, including a yoke. You might be able to get them to substitute a larger yoke for a few bucks more. That's not much more than a Cleaveland Main Squeeze, $235, which would be my manual squeezer of choice. You can also buy them thru Ebay.
The comment about multiple yokes is invalid, because whether you use a manual or pneumatic squeezer, you will still need the same yokes.
I don't remember anywhere that I couldn't use my pneumatic squeezer where I would also have had a problem with my rivet gun. In other words, I don't see an access advantage with a manual squeezer.
I would avoid any squeezer that does not accept Chicago Pneumatic 214 pneumatic squeezer yokes, i.e., Tatco and others. If you start with a manual and get smart later you want to be able to use your yokes in your pneumatic.
Some will say to avoid an alligator style pneumatic squeezer, but a friend has been happy with his. They are a little cheaper on Ebay.
The comment about multiple yokes is invalid, because whether you use a manual or pneumatic squeezer, you will still need the same yokes.
I don't remember anywhere that I couldn't use my pneumatic squeezer where I would also have had a problem with my rivet gun. In other words, I don't see an access advantage with a manual squeezer.
I would avoid any squeezer that does not accept Chicago Pneumatic 214 pneumatic squeezer yokes, i.e., Tatco and others. If you start with a manual and get smart later you want to be able to use your yokes in your pneumatic.
Some will say to avoid an alligator style pneumatic squeezer, but a friend has been happy with his. They are a little cheaper on Ebay.
brian
Well Known Member
tools to avoid
as someone mentioned, don't buy the cheap Chinese drills (or most any cheap Chinese tools). They often are not straight, and often poorly sharpened.
In particular, avoid cutting corners by buying cheap strippers or crimpers.
Also avoid the cheap wire strippers sold by the con artists at AirVenture - see pic here: http://brian76.mystarband.net/tools.htm#jun13-06
They may appear to work well at the show, but they are junk in the real world.
Avoid "oil-free" air compressors - they are extremely noisy.
Also, don't get the air line flow regulators that have the rotary dial on the side, even if made in US. They are very difficult to set exactly, and impossible to return to a setting. A very small movement in the dial makes a big difference in the flow. Get the imported ones that use a T shape with a valve that screws down. You can make fine adjustments with them, and you can return to a setting. Avery carries them. See my tools page for a pic.
Oh, and I certainly agree that a phneumatic squeezer is essential. As someone said, you can do with 2 hands what would otherwise take 3. It's very easy to hold the squeezer in one hand and the part in the other hand and make the squeeze. If you can't afford a new one, there are lots of used ones on ebay for half to 1/4 the price of a new one. Shop carefully on ebay.
i've got lots of tool tips on my tools page:
http://brian76.mystarband.net/tools.htm
as someone mentioned, don't buy the cheap Chinese drills (or most any cheap Chinese tools). They often are not straight, and often poorly sharpened.
In particular, avoid cutting corners by buying cheap strippers or crimpers.
Also avoid the cheap wire strippers sold by the con artists at AirVenture - see pic here: http://brian76.mystarband.net/tools.htm#jun13-06
They may appear to work well at the show, but they are junk in the real world.
Avoid "oil-free" air compressors - they are extremely noisy.
Also, don't get the air line flow regulators that have the rotary dial on the side, even if made in US. They are very difficult to set exactly, and impossible to return to a setting. A very small movement in the dial makes a big difference in the flow. Get the imported ones that use a T shape with a valve that screws down. You can make fine adjustments with them, and you can return to a setting. Avery carries them. See my tools page for a pic.
Oh, and I certainly agree that a phneumatic squeezer is essential. As someone said, you can do with 2 hands what would otherwise take 3. It's very easy to hold the squeezer in one hand and the part in the other hand and make the squeeze. If you can't afford a new one, there are lots of used ones on ebay for half to 1/4 the price of a new one. Shop carefully on ebay.
i've got lots of tool tips on my tools page:
http://brian76.mystarband.net/tools.htm
brian
Well Known Member
nutplate templates
You also don't need to buy any of those nutplate jigs. Clecoes work fine and more easily, if you do it right. If you have a #8 nutplate to put in, don't drill the hole to full size. A 1/8" hole will allow you to use a 1/8" copper cleco for a perfect fit in both the hole and the nutplate. Use a silver 3/32" cleco for #6 and use a black 5/32" cleco for AN3 or #10. Drill one nutplate rivet hole, put a silver cleco there, then drill the other 3/32" hole. Remove the clecoes and drill the center hole out to final size (I generally use #16 or even #12 for AN3 or #8, so the screws will fit in more easily). Works perfectly every time. For larger or smaller nutplates, just use appropriately larger or smaller clecoes and starter holes. Pic here (and on my tools page):
brian
You also don't need to buy any of those nutplate jigs. Clecoes work fine and more easily, if you do it right. If you have a #8 nutplate to put in, don't drill the hole to full size. A 1/8" hole will allow you to use a 1/8" copper cleco for a perfect fit in both the hole and the nutplate. Use a silver 3/32" cleco for #6 and use a black 5/32" cleco for AN3 or #10. Drill one nutplate rivet hole, put a silver cleco there, then drill the other 3/32" hole. Remove the clecoes and drill the center hole out to final size (I generally use #16 or even #12 for AN3 or #8, so the screws will fit in more easily). Works perfectly every time. For larger or smaller nutplates, just use appropriately larger or smaller clecoes and starter holes. Pic here (and on my tools page):
brian
rv9aviator
Well Known Member
I am 5' 7" and 135 lbs and I use the fire out of my pneumatic squeezer.The weight hasn't been a problem for me. I bought a rebuilt one from The Yard Store and it has worked perfectly through the whole project. If you're building a quick build then it might not be a "must have" but for a slow build, at least for me it is.
The two items I bought that I regret were both from Grizzly. One was a combination shear, brake and roll machine. I thought it would be helpful making sheet metal parts such as custom brackets, but the poor construction makes it useless. The other item was a small variable speed band saw. When you slow it down enough for cutting aluminum it has absolutely no power. I'm not knocking Grizzly as they make some very good wood working tools. These just were not suitable for my application.
The two items I bought that I regret were both from Grizzly. One was a combination shear, brake and roll machine. I thought it would be helpful making sheet metal parts such as custom brackets, but the poor construction makes it useless. The other item was a small variable speed band saw. When you slow it down enough for cutting aluminum it has absolutely no power. I'm not knocking Grizzly as they make some very good wood working tools. These just were not suitable for my application.
rv9aviator
Well Known Member
I aligned nut plates with cleco's just as you did with great results. One day out of curiousity I simply drilled out Van's holes to the right size and the nutplate riveted perfectly. Van's hole are so accurate and the holes are not far apart that it has worked every time. I have quit using the nutplates as jigs and just drill away. You mileage may vary of course.
KTM520guy
Well Known Member
brian said:You also don't need to buy any of those nutplate jigs. Clecoes work fine and more easily, if you do it right. If you have a #8 nutplate to put in, don't drill the hole to full size. A 1/8" hole will allow you to use a 1/8" copper cleco for a perfect fit in both the hole and the nutplate. Use a silver 3/32" cleco for #6 and use a black 5/32" cleco for AN3 or #10. Drill one nutplate rivet hole, put a silver cleco there, then drill the other 3/32" hole. Remove the clecoes and drill the center hole out to final size (I generally use #16 or even #12 for AN3 or #8, so the screws will fit in more easily). Works perfectly every time. For larger or smaller nutplates, just use appropriately larger or smaller clecoes and starter holes. Pic here (and on my tools page):
brian
I love my nutplate jigs. Different strokes I guess.
lorne green
Well Known Member
cogsdill deburrer
I got 15 minutes worth of work on the .093 deburrer from cogsdill
(the smallest one). It pooched on me and at $35.00 each I'v decided not to replace this item and deburr by hand. The next size up (.125) works well. Who knows? Maybe I was ziggin when I should have been zaggin'...sheared the retractable blade. No, I don't want to order a replacement tip!
rwarre said:
I got 15 minutes worth of work on the .093 deburrer from cogsdill
(the smallest one). It pooched on me and at $35.00 each I'v decided not to replace this item and deburr by hand. The next size up (.125) works well. Who knows? Maybe I was ziggin when I should have been zaggin'...sheared the retractable blade. No, I don't want to order a replacement tip!
brian said:
Being too cheap to buy the expensive nutplate jigs, I made mine out of, guess what, nutplates!
Put the screw in backwards (from the rear) through a piece of scrap aluminum (for the handle) and voila, 35 cent nutplate jigs. Make several for odd angles, etc. I did.
So far I've used most tools I ordered in the first batch of tools and they were suggested by users of this forum. I'm happy with them. As most have already said, don't get cheap and low quality tools -- you'll just ruin your project. This is wrong place to save because good tools are for your comfort. You can sell them after you have finished your project or leave something out from project (slow-build instead of QB) or similar...
Example: I originally got spring back dimple dies from Avery. Last xmas they had some offer for lower quality (normal) dimple dies for a very low price -- I thought they might be nice backup. Got them and did few dimples for a testing ==> I would never use them for visible parts. The whole block of dies cost as much as single pair of normal dies, but they left dimpled are bumpy unlike spring back dies.
Edit: some typos
Example: I originally got spring back dimple dies from Avery. Last xmas they had some offer for lower quality (normal) dimple dies for a very low price -- I thought they might be nice backup. Got them and did few dimples for a testing ==> I would never use them for visible parts. The whole block of dies cost as much as single pair of normal dies, but they left dimpled are bumpy unlike spring back dies.
Edit: some typos
7 and 9 tools
For rivet guns: Don't buy the packaged assortment of rivet sets. You'll only need a swivel set, a short set for 470's, a single offset for 470's, the back rivet set and optionally, a double offset back rivet set for the wing ribs/skins.
For slider builders: don't buy a hole finder. Make your own from an old hacksaw blade and 3 rivets.
Steve
For rivet guns: Don't buy the packaged assortment of rivet sets. You'll only need a swivel set, a short set for 470's, a single offset for 470's, the back rivet set and optionally, a double offset back rivet set for the wing ribs/skins.
For slider builders: don't buy a hole finder. Make your own from an old hacksaw blade and 3 rivets.
Steve
