What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

When you can't fly the plane you're building

LettersFromFlyoverCountry

Well Known Member
When my Meniere's flareup forced me to sell the beloved 7A, I started building an RV-12iS, mostly because I like building airplanes.

I let the medical expire with the possibility I could fly under sport rules. I'm building to LSA specifications.

Meniere's is a slow progressive illness that eventually leaves you (mostly) deaf. The process of destroying a vestibular system is difficult -- lots of dizzy spells and the accompanying throwing up etc. Not fun. But your brain begins to adjust and compensate and eventually you get some stability, which is why the FAA still issues special issuance to people with Meniere's.

As I get older and things begin to deteriorate, though, I increasingly think I'll just stay on the ground, especially since I haven't flown since the day I ferried the 7A away.

But there's this thing I have for building airplanes.

The challenge is once it's done. Painting. I can't do it myself and I wouldn't want to. My 7A was done by Midwest Aircraft Refinishing in Hibbing (probably the 3rd RV they did) and they were great. But a ferry flight to Hibbing would be out of the question.

Fortunately, Wipaire's paint shop is about 20 feet from my hangar and while they're expensive and sometimes have provided unsatisfactory results to at least one of my RV-10 pals, that seems like a reasonable alternative.

The problem? Flight testing.

The LSA requires five hours and at my home field - KSGS - you're not allowed to return until after testing (too many of the RVers on the field ignore the rule and are ready to claim they had high oil temps. I don't do business that way).

So that would require hiring someone to do that first flight and testing -- and demo flights to prospective buyers.

So I'm interested in hearing from other people who've done this . What unforeseen challenges await. What would be a fair price for a test pilot to spend a day testing an RV-12iS? etc.
 
Last edited:
Public Use

Airport. Not sure they have grounds or way to enforce the crazy rule about returning for landing on initial flight. Do as you like, me, I’d fly and land. Silly guideline.
 
Hi Bob,

Well I know that the decision to stop flying is always going to happen to everyone at some point - doesn’t make the prospect any better - but I have lots of respect for those that decide that it is time!

In terms of a pilot to do the testing, well, the “rates” are hard to predict. I did the 5 hours for a neighbor in his RV-12 just because he asked, and we’re friends - no charge. Of course, he and his wife had been my surrogate family while I was building the house here seven years ago, feeding me and providing a place to park a fifth-wheel to live in, so it all comes out even in the end.

At the other end of the spectrum, I have a sliding scale for first flights ad subsequent flight testing for someone that just hires me - the scale depends on the relative risk of the airplane. How standard is it, how standard is the equipment, or how radical. As one of my good Avionics gurus always says, there is such a thing as a “good guy discount” as well as a “jerk” tax.....but in the case of flight testing, I simply won’t work for the latter type anyway.

My thought for you is that you probably have lots of flying friends in the Minnesota area that would be happy to get some flying time and experience for little or no payment - you just have to ask around.

And, of course, two of the great advantages of the ELSA RV-12 is that its pretty easy to trailer to another airport, and the Phase 1 test program can easily be done in a couple of days - then you fly it home.

As for paint - if you really think it is going to become someone else’s plane, just fly Phase 1 bare, then sell it as a blank canvas for the next owner to make their own!

Good luck!

paul
 
Last edited:
The LSA requires five hours and my home field - KSGS - doesn't allow first flights to return until after testing (too many of the RVers on the field ignore the rule and are ready to claim they had high oil temps. I don't do business that way).

Interesting Bob as I fly out of there in a purchased -8 and have not heard of that rule. I can only think of your first flight and perhaps a -10's first flight in the last 6 or so years.
 
There are plenty of pilots at our local airport that would fly it for you for free, it is probably safe to assume you could find someone local that would fly the first hours for little or no expenses and/or get someone young and interested in building airplanes to help you build and fly it.
 
Interesting Bob as I fly out of there in a purchased -8 and have not heard of that rule. I can only think of your first flight and perhaps a -10's first flight in the last 6 or so years.

I doubt most people would know about it unless they were trying to get an airworthiness certificate. It's MSP FSDO.

There've been so many airport managers through that place since Jeff Burke left and got arrested for embezzling the fuel money that I'm not even sure they know.

But when the DAR (Tim Mahoney was the DAR back then; I'm not sure who's doing the work now) gives you the airworthiness certificate, the document outlining your test requirements will make the stipulation, and will include a detailed map of your test area which does not include KSGS.

They give you a narrow corridor out of KSGS, over to the Wip's Landing on the river, then a narrow corridor down the Mississippi to Airlake (if you want to hangar there) then a narrow corridor out of Airlake down to an area from Faribault to Dodge Center to Red Wing. Alternately, you can base out of Lake Elmo, When I flew in 2012, Stein Bruch was kind enough to let me use his hangar for a month so I set up at Lakeville.

Since I've been there (2008), David Maib has built and flown his RV-10 (not sure the exclusion was in place then. Same with Mike Hilger and his RV-6), Vince Bastiani (RV-7), Brad Benson (RV-6) have built and flown. Bryan Flood was building an RV-14 last I knew but I lost touch with him a few years ago and have no idea how that project is going. There's another 10 on the field but I believe he flew first flight out of Red Wing before moving up to KSGS.

The only other building project I know of on the field is Steve Hulse's Bearcat project a few doors down on Beechcraft.

Everyone else I think is in the Old Man's Club at the terminal building and is too busy opining on the world's problems to fly airplanes. :)
 
Last edited:
Hi Bob,

As for paint - if you really think it is going to become someone else’s plane, just fly Phase 1 bare, then sell it as a blank canvas for the next owner to make their own!

Good luck!

paul

I just assumed it would be more attractive to see (or easier) as a completely finished airplane, but maybe not.

I wonder what the market value would be of an unpainted RV-12iS built to Van's specs?
 
I just assumed it would be more attractive to see (or easier) as a completely finished airplane, but maybe not.

I wonder what the market value would be of an unpainted RV-12iS built to Van's specs?

Yes and no. I don't have any experience in selling an unpainted airplane, but I have a degree in the Arts field. In general, people are terrible about visualizing something that isn't there. That's why there are companies who will stage your house with furniture to sell it. Some buyers won't look past the picture of the unpainted plane, but some would also look at the scheme you selected and want it to be different colors, lines, etc.

I think Paul is right, I think a blank canvas would be the way to go in this case. Since you have a paint shop next door, you could get a quote from them for a basic paint job to be able to furnish it to the buyer. Then they know how much paint would cost and you're reducing one more variable for them.

You could always take a hybrid approach of painting it a base color (white) and have vinyl stripes applied. That would be easily changed by the new owner and would solve the problem of selling a blank canvas.
 
Airport. Not sure they have grounds or way to enforce the crazy rule about returning for landing on initial flight. Do as you like, me, I’d fly and land. Silly guideline.

Violating -- through ignoring -- the operating limitations paperwork from the FAA is some really, REALLY bad advice.

As I indicated earlier, that's just not the way I do business. Look, the restriction makes sense. KSGS is in EXTREMELY congested area sitting underneath the MSP Class B. There's simply no place to go for an experimental in Phase I if there's a problem.

It only takes one.

As builders, we have a responsiblity to fly professionally and safely for the good of people on the ground, and the category of aircraft many people have fought to protect. We have to do our part.
 
Last edited:
Bob - it is the FSDO's rule, anyway, right? Not the airport?

I can't recall the history but it was around 2008 when the change was made. I don't know if FSDO was reacting to airport management concerns or FSDO was taking the lead (I kinda think it was the former considering that you can still do first flights at Crystal).

But, yes, it's part of the operating limitations.
 
Have you considered selling to a buyer that would test fly it for you?

If I can get my wife to agree, I would do it. My point is, I think there might be a market out there for you. If I'm interested, I'm sure others might be too. All my lurker buddies who want to build, but haven't for many reasons, might like an finished product that they can own from day one of the flight test process. Especially, at a discount.

Just thinking outside the box.

I briefly looked at your builder blog and it still looks like the avionics have not been purchased/installed. That would likely add another $30K to your cost.

I was thinking about a ballpark price that you might think about selling. If you want to recoup expenses, it looks like you would want to sell at $90-100K.

For flight testing, I would consider putting it on a trailer and moving it to your flight test field. I think that is safer than what your home field rules require.

Paint options:
1. No paint, let buyer worry about it.
2. Paint it Matterhorn white. Nearly ubiquitous for aviation and a blank canvas for adding more paint or decals.
3. Complete paint job.

I like #1. Just my 2 cents.

Best of luck with the airplane.
 
I can't recall the history but it was around 2008 when the change was made. I don't know if FSDO was reacting to airport management concerns or FSDO was taking the lead (I kinda think it was the former considering that you can still do first flights at Crystal).

But, yes, it's part of the operating limitations.

I recall in 2001, if I'd chose Crystal (instead of Anoka Cty.), I'd have had a narrow corridor leading north for one flight out, with no return until phase 1 done. They obviously have relented on that, since others have done their 40 hours in and out of Crystal. I was told it had to do with population distributions, houses, etc. Might just be day to day bureaucratic mind-changing going on, dunno.
 
Have you considered selling to a buyer that would test fly it for you?

I kicked it around but decided against it. It's unlikely the prospective buyer would have transition training in an RV-12 (although that's possible)and wouldn't be covered for insurance. And it would eliminate a class of buyers that's pretty important for the RV-2iS: pilots letting their medicals expire to fly under sport privileges.

One idea I had was having someone with a current medical in the right seat acting as PIC for me to do the Phase I but, again, that depends on my health.

Theoretically, it should be possible to fly out and do a quick first flight, evaluate, so a second flight for a few hours to accomplish some testing, then tie it down at Red Wing (not far from KSGS) and return the next day to complete. That would work if there are no problems. I can do the same to Airlake (somewhat longer drive), especially since one of the best EAA local Chapters in America -- Chapter 25 -- is there and I could probably coordinate with them for assistance. Most of the other chapters I'm aware of around here are sleepy, political-b****fest chapters.

I briefly looked at your builder blog and it still looks like the avionics have not been purchased/installed. That would likely add another $30K to your cost.
I was thinking about a ballpark price that you might think about selling. If you want to recoup expenses, it looks like you would want to sell at $90-100K.

The goal isn't to get rid of an airplane; it's to sell an airplane and a very good one. So, yeah, I'm not going to take a loss on it. That's why I figured having it painted and tested prior to sale would be best.

Then I'll start building another one, and doing condition inspections for area pilots.

You're right, the avionics aren't installed yet. That's the plan for this summer. $26,000. Coming out of a Roth IRA I set up for the avionics with some money from the first sale. Thank you, S&P 500!
 
Last edited:
Back
Top