landing my RV-7A

I had a wonderful flight today, started with me taking off the same time as a mooney. Except the mooney on the right runway had a problem, he left his luggage door open. I made an anouncement that he had a problem. He had to return to land. But the RV just zippped off the runway, way cool. I flew around for about an hour than landed at a local airport for fuel. I had 25miles to fly back and decided to run it as fast as I could at about 1200agl all the way back. I got to 7 miles out and called the tower for entry into classD airspace, I was currently doing 190mph. I was told to call in at 2 miles out, straight in for 21L. I continued to do 190mph. I got 3 miles out and called in and than pulled back the power, brake it baby. I was really going and the brake was coming on, but not fast enough, so I pulled up slightly. Down to 100kts, full flaps. I looked at the runway, way down there. Oh oh! I'm now at 1500agl. I went into a major slip with full flaps and pointed her to the runway, I'm now about 1 mile out. I held it there with a speed of 80kts. Major slip and going down, pointing to the numbers, vasi light all white, never saw the red. I thought to myself, I can always do a go around, but lets see what this baby can do. I continued to slip it major, right foot pushing real hard on the rudder all the way down to about 10 off. At that time, and a little long, but not to bad, I straighten her up and flair it, still with no throttle it's all the way back. I grease the landing, I pull the stick all the way back and at the same time the nose comes down and I hit the brakes. I make the first taxi way, which on a 2644 ft runway is about 2000ft in. No problem here, it just suprised me on what this airplane can do. What a wonderful airplane. I love it.

I have to say to make this landing, first the skill of the pilot is paramount, second the C/S prop, and finally the Grove brakes.

100kts?

Hopefully you meant 100mph for full flaps?

I guess I am kind of surprised at the lack of responses after over 200 people have read this.

I wouldn't suggest you do this too often or you may have to experience how she flies with only one flap!

Have you read on here the number of aircraft that have flipped? If you let her roll out a bit you still would have had plenty of runway and wouldn't have to depend so much on the Grove brakes either.

Don't be offended by my post, I just read through the accident report on Dan's RV-10. If I do something that makes people raise their eyebrows I hope they will speak up, I know I am going to try to speak up more often.

Be careful out there...

I'm not really in a position to judge another pilot on flying skills....but if I read this correctly....you ran the engine hard, then basically cut it to idle....and dove/slipped all the way in. Aren't you worried a bit about shock cooling the motor doing that?

I'm all for running engines hard. Its good for them. But make sure you let them breathe...and give them time to warm up and cool down.

LarsonAero said:

I'm not really in a position to judge another pilot on flying skills....but if I read this correctly....you ran the engine hard, then basically cut it to idle....and dove/slipped all the way in. Aren't you worried a bit about shock cooling the motor doing that?

I'm all for running engines hard. Its good for them. But make sure you let them breathe...and give them time to warm up and cool down.

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Well I am right there with you on this one Larson, also caught the flap deployment speed and wondered just how strong that flap bare we built is. Wile I don?t treat my engine this way and could never deploy the manual flaps at this speed (not strong enough) one point he made is right the plane is amazingly capable. However some on hear are into overhead approaches which seem like a safe option assuming no one is in the way but there doing the same thing to there engines, it takes me about 5 miles minimum to slow to pattern speed.

You say your in North Willamette Valley, where at? Person field for me.

Russ McCutcheon said:

it takes me about 5 miles minimum to slow to pattern speed.

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And it takes me the downwind.................after the 45 degree entry

L.Adamson --- RV6A Hartzell C/S prop

LarsonAero said:

Aren't you worried a bit about shock cooling the motor doing that?

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The greatest aviation myth today (next to the "LOP is bad" myth).

Shock Cooling: Myth or Reality?

Top five engine myths

7pilot said:

Hopefully you meant 100mph for full flaps?

I guess I am kind of surprised at the lack of responses after over 200 people have read this.

I wouldn't suggest you do this too often or you may have to experience how she flies with only one flap!

Have you read on here the number of aircraft that have flipped? If you let her roll out a bit you still would have had plenty of runway and wouldn't have to depend so much on the Grove brakes either.

Don't be offended by my post, I just read through the accident report on Dan's RV-10. If I do something that makes people raise their eyebrows I hope they will speak up, I know I am going to try to speak up more often.

Be careful out there...

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Sorry, white arc on the IAS. your right.

f1rocket said:

The greatest aviation myth today (next to the "LOP is bad" myth).

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182883-1.html

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The glider group did a study that showed they could seriously extend time between cracks by moderating their full power to cut power and descend routine for their tow plane, even by just a little bit (15 seconds? 30 seconds?)

I don't know how much that applies to a guy doing it once in the first 200 hours or whatever steve is up to, but in theory it sounds right.

edit- thread on "shock cooling" http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=24037
post # 9 is the one i'm thinkin gof, but #8 is interesting also.

I wouldn't think it will hurt his engine if he does it this once out of 150 hours etc etc. i'm probably over guessing steves hours- Steve hour many hours do you have on your nice new plane?

LarsonAero said:

I'm not really in a position to judge another pilot on flying skills....but if I read this correctly....you ran the engine hard, then basically cut it to idle....and dove/slipped all the way in. Aren't you worried a bit about shock cooling the motor doing that?

I'm all for running engines hard. Its good for them. But make sure you let them breathe...and give them time to warm up and cool down.

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The temps stayed right in there, when you slip big like that it cuts the air to the intakes. Leason learned from mountain flying seminars. It works. I remember doing massive decents in training and the big thing they stressed was slipping to prevent shock cool. I have to take another look at my ias from vans for the rv7 but the air speed I maintained was within the white arc. i didn't follow the Dynon. I have practices simular in the past and all temps on a decent like this were always in the safe zone. The only thing a person needs to watch is personal skills. You have to really know your placement or you turn out. If I didn't have the C/S I would never concider.

allbee said:

The temps stayed right in there, when you slip big like that it cuts the air to the intakes. Leason learned from mountain flying seminars. It works. I remember doing massive decents in training and the big thing they stressed was slipping to prevent shock cool. I have to take another look at my ias from vans for the rv7 but the air speed I maintained was within the white arc. i didn't follow the Dynon. I have practices simular in the past and all temps on a decent like this were always in the safe zone. The only thing a person needs to watch is personal skills. You have to really know your placement or you turn out. If I didn't have the C/S I would never concider.

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Oh, one more thing, before slowing and decending I also richened the mix.

I have to say, I got a response that I didn't expect. Now the engine is the same as in a cessna, it doesn't know what it's in. I go 190mph, the cessna about 140. The cessna comes into an airfield at lets say 140 and the pilot pulls the power to land, he probably will pull the power all the way back to do so. I come in and do the same, but I'm at 190 and slow to the white arc, so does the cessna. I have a CS prop a cessna may have a cs prop. If I had a fixed prop I would be for sure pulling power all the way back, so would the cessna.

What I'm trying to state, the temps on my engine where normal when I had it set up for the 190. The engine was not laboring, nor working HARD in any way, sure the throttle was on there and it would have been on the cessna also. I'm slippy so I go faster that's all. I pull the power back, not with a swift stroke mind you, I have a prop up there that can cause trouble with the crank, it was a nice slow pull back. I don't just throw on the flaps either. I don't look at numbers, I look at the white arc. As my speed approaches the white arc, I'm hitting the button with slight jabs to lower the flaps, the flaps don't come on more than 10%(I only do this when I touch the white arc) until I'm inside the arc at least one mark, than thay go down all the way.

You people need to understand, a slip not only allows you to decent at a fast rate without increasing speed, it also cuts out inlet air so shock cooling isn't a factor. Ask anybody that does mountain flying and they will tell you this is paramount to do. Also outside air temps were above 85degrees.

I'm not a crazy guy, just using the capabilities of a fine machine.

Steve, these guys are jerking your chain all over the place. You're just learning to manage the beast and I am sure you thought about the flight after landing. Not exactly a normal approach and landing, but you did demonstrate what the airplane can do.

I would never attempt it with a fixed pitch prop. I've learned to slow down and extend flaps on down wind to make a decent approach. I used to do slam dunk 180 degree turns from down wind to the numbers but not anymore with the Catto. It takes a bit more planning and speed control on the low end. You definitely can not go down and slow down at the same time. Yea, a slip can rescue a screwed up approach but unless it is over tall obstacles, it says to much about a lack of planning for me.

David-aviator said:

Steve, these guys are jerking your chain all over the place. You're just learning to manage the beast and I am sure you thought about the flight after landing. Not exactly a normal approach and landing, but you did demonstrate what the airplane can do.

I would never attempt it with a fixed pitch prop. I've learned to slow down and extend flaps on down wind to make a decent approach. I used to do slam dunk 180 degree turns from down wind to the numbers but not anymore with the Catto. It takes a bit more planning and speed control on the low end. You definitely can not go down and slow down at the same time. Yea, a slip can rescue a screwed up approach but unless it is over tall obstacles, it says to much about a lack of planning for me.

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Thanks Dave,
I felt they were jerking me also, that's why I responded back to them. I will say you are right all the way. I slowed to a speed I wanted and than pointed to the runway, with a slip, I maintained that speed very well all the way to the runway, way cool. I was at a very nice approach speed, the engine didn't know I was decenting at a high rate, I knew it though.

allbee said:

I have to say, I got a response that I didn't expect. Now the engine is the same as in a cessna, it doesn't know what it's in. I go 190mph, the cessna about 140. The cessna comes into an airfield at lets say 140 and the pilot pulls the power to land, he probably will pull the power all the way back to do so. I come in and do the same, but I'm at 190 and slow to the white arc, so does the cessna. I have a CS prop a cessna may have a cs prop. If I had a fixed prop I would be for sure pulling power all the way back, so would the cessna.

What I'm trying to state, the temps on my engine where normal when I had it set up for the 190. The engine was not laboring, nor working HARD in any way, sure the throttle was on there and it would have been on the cessna also. I'm slippy so I go faster that's all. I pull the power back, not with a swift stroke mind you, I have a prop up there that can cause trouble with the crank, it was a nice slow pull back. I don't just throw on the flaps either. I don't look at numbers, I look at the white arc. As my speed approaches the white arc, I'm hitting the button with slight jabs to lower the flaps, the flaps don't come on more than 10%(I only do this when I touch the white arc) until I'm inside the arc at least one mark, than thay go down all the way.

You people need to understand, a slip not only allows you to decent at a fast rate without increasing speed, it also cuts out inlet air so shock cooling isn't a factor. Ask anybody that does mountain flying and they will tell you this is paramount to do. Also outside air temps were above 85degrees.

I'm not a crazy guy, just using the capabilities of a fine machine.

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I didn't intend to jerk your chain....I was posting to learn something. Which I have. I'm going to look into the links posted on shock cooling, throughout my flight instruction & A&P school I've been taught about shock cooling. But I'll look into the data presented, and give it some thought.

For a time....people used to think that breaking in motors easy was the best route also....which has been proven very wrong. So there is always opportunity to learn something.

I too enjoy slips, and I've done a few in the RV....but mostly I've had it hammered into my head to plan the descent ahead of time...and manage that speed in the pattern. And...like others have said, once you've widdled the power down and advanced the RPM...that CS prop is like a huge air brake. If you can nail 85 with full flaps, full rpm, and very little throttle....the -6 drops like a rock, without a slip.

Thanks for the info guys.....I really wasn't trying to jerk your chain

LarsonAero said:

I didn't intend to jerk your chain....I was posting to learn something. Which I have. I'm going to look into the links posted on shock cooling, throughout my flight instruction & A&P school I've been taught about shock cooling. But I'll look into the data presented, and give it some thought.

For a time....people used to think that breaking in motors easy was the best route also....which has been proven very wrong. So there is always opportunity to learn something.

I too enjoy slips, and I've done a few in the RV....but mostly I've had it hammered into my head to plan the descent ahead of time...and manage that speed in the pattern. And...like others have said, once you've widdled the power down and advanced the RPM...that CS prop is like a huge air brake. If you can nail 85 with full flaps, full rpm, and very little throttle....the -6 drops like a rock, without a slip.

Thanks for the info guys.....I really wasn't trying to jerk your chain

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Not a problem, I did feel a strong feeling to post this so people can learn, mainly that you can drop right in. I found that an RV will drop in once you establish the speed. Like mentioned, if you try to slow it on the decent you won't. You must first get your speed, than drop it in. One more thing, these are slippy aircraft, so if you are doing 190, you can pull back on the throttle to half and nothing happens, it keeps going at 190. I should have also stated that about 4 miles out, I was pulled back on the throttle about half. But not enough to cause the prop to go flat any. At three miles out I slowely pulled back the throttle which caused the prop to flatten and slow the aircraft, than I pushed the prop to flat(of course nothing happened, this is for in case of go around), than I needed a little more slowing, than I raised the nose a bit to slow within the white arc, put in a little flaps (10%), once inside the white arc, full flaps. Than I pointed to the ground with full hard right rudder, very important on that one, you need to cut out the air to the intakes and allow for a decent without speed gain. Left airleron and pushed forward on the stick for a nice steep decent with a stabilitized approach speed, very safe, very quick to the ground.

This procedure is very useful at flyins and many other applications. Why do the sloooow approach into an airfield and hold up everything. Which can cause problems, if it doesn't you'll be remembered and told to hold in a circle pattern until things are just right for YOU.

But anyway enjoy the RV's out there, they are super fun to fly.

I think another pertinent data point, especially given some of the accident discussions, is you should know how your airplane handles when the big windmill out front stops turning. I used to practice pulling the prop back to idle on downwind and hitting the numbers on landing. Most would be very surprised by the amount of speed and altitude lost, especailly during the turns. My guess is that most would end up short of the runway.

Better to come in hot, slip it, and land on the runway. It is a good skill to keep proficient.

As have been noted in other accident posts, it's a shame that some off-field landings have resulted in fatal injuries when the landscape would suggest that it might have been possible to have a different outcome.

Learning is right...

Steve's account is cool.

I flew behind a constant speed 3-blade prop for several years on a 114B. I never noticed the air brake effect of the CS prop because I always flew repetitiously in the pattern to the ground, everything done just this much and at this time, etc.

Well, then I purchased a fixed pitch RV-6A and, whoa, let's start slowing down miles out unless you always want to do the slip landing, even slipping just to get into the pattern. Then, I get to experience my friend's 7A with a CS prop and, surprise, I'm thrown into the safety harness by that big brake on the front. It's way cool to approach the airport at cruise speed and let the CS slow you down.

These airplanes are wonderful performers in any configuration and the differences between them are a pleasure to enjoy.

keithschult said:

Steve's account is cool.

I flew behind a constant speed 3-blade prop for several years on a 114B. I never noticed the air brake effect of the CS prop because I always flew repetitiously in the pattern to the ground, everything done just this much and at this time, etc.

Well, then I purchased a fixed pitch RV-6A and, whoa, let's start slowing down miles out unless you always want to do the slip landing, even slipping just to get into the pattern. Then, I get to experience my friend's 7A with a CS prop and, surprise, I'm thrown into the safety harness by that big brake on the front. It's way cool to approach the airport at cruise speed and let the CS slow you down.

These airplanes are wonderful performers in any configuration and the differences between them are a pleasure to enjoy.

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I will have to add. When I fly a passenger I always worn them of my landings. I state that when it's time for the entry they are going to find a weard experience, it has brakes in the air. Keeps them from getting the scare thing.

Ok, I just reviewed my IAS and the knots that I lowered the flaps were at 87, but I maintained 80kts all the way down. The pic here if you zoom in will show you my white ark. Sorry for the confusion.

That sounds more like it!

I wasn't trying to pull your chain either, instead I feel like we all need to clarify things like this, lest someone thinks they are ok with running 20 Kts too fast with full flaps. My airspeed indicator is in knots so I have had a number of folks wonder what I was doing when I slow down to 85 before lowering flaps!

Thanks for the clarification

7pilot said:

I wasn't trying to pull your chain either, instead I feel like we all need to clarify things like this, lest someone thinks they are ok with running 20 Kts too fast with full flaps. My airspeed indicator is in knots so I have had a number of folks wonder what I was doing when I slow down to 85 before lowering flaps!

Thanks for the clarification

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You put out a good concern about putting on the flaps. I goofed. The pulling the chain was the concerns that somebody else came out with on abusing the engine. You were absolutely right with the 100kts concern with lowering the flaps. My mistake it was 87kts.

thanks

allbee said:

You put out a good concern about putting on the flaps. I goofed. The pulling the chain was the concerns that somebody else came out with on abusing the engine. You were absolutely right with the 100kts concern with lowering the flaps. My mistake it was 87kts.

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FYI................RV6 has a 0-20 degree flap extension at 95 kias, and then 20-40 at 87 kias. My white arc is 87 though. Just wondering if the 7 has something similar.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

keithschult said:

Then, I get to experience my friend's 7A with a CS prop and, surprise, I'm thrown into the safety harness by that big brake on the front. It's way cool to approach the airport at cruise speed and let the CS slow you down.

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If you don't shove the blue knob full forward too soon, it won't throw you into the safety harness. But it sure will if you do!

L.Adamson --- RV6A (flying)

Prop Driving the Engine

f1rocket said:

The greatest aviation myth today (next to the "LOP is bad" myth).

Shock Cooling: Myth or Reality?

Top five engine myths

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Just to be fair why don't we throw in another one. In the "Pelican's Perch #78" Deakin addresses the prop driving the engine. While basically a problem with radials the concern lives on today with our engines. While this is arguably a myth he does bring up a reason not to come in with your hair on fire and chop power. Whether or not this is a real concern I don't know, but I'm careful just the same. Deakin's words, "Ring Flutter...During most of the time the engine runs, the cylinder rings are forced "down" against their lands, which also pushes them against the cylinder walls. If the RPM is very high, and the MP is very low, there is a large, negative pressure created in the combustion chamber during the intake stroke, due to the closed throttle plate and the piston trying hard to suck air in. This may lift the ring off its land during that stroke. The next stroke is the compression stroke, and while the pressure will be greatly reduced because not much air got in, it's still enough to push the ring back down again. This repetition may well cause the rings to "flutter," beating up and down within the land, and this may well cause damage."


Steve,

I think it's great that you came in high and hot and became a believer that you can get the plane on the ground. It's good to know that you can fly the airplane that you will be piloting on the day of an engine failure, or fire, or whatever should it ever happen. I'm also with the others, baby that nose taxi device!

Not saying I know a bunch about the lycoming type engine. But in automotive, we do a compression brake all the time on engines, never a problem. Just thinking.

allbee said:

Not saying I know a bunch about the lycoming type engine. But in automotive, we do a compression brake all the time on engines, never a problem. Just thinking.

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That's the beauty of this Steve. It's your plane, your money, and your choice.

allbee said:

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Looking at this photo, I see you have mounted your struts up side down. If you flip them over, the canopy will open and top out softer with a nice slow last three inches. The way you have them, the strut just runs to the top and BANGS at the end of the throw......................

gasman said:

Looking at this photo, I see you have mounted your struts up side down. If you flip them over, the canopy will open and top out softer with a nice slow last three inches. The way you have them, the strut just runs to the top and BANGS at the end of the throw......................

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Wow, I thought the canopy worked great, I'll switch them to get it even better, thanks.