Lycoming or clones

Ok I was hoping to make it to OSH and my schedule just would not allow this so I did not make it. I am trying to decide which way to go for the engine. I know I want an IO-360, will run a CS prop. My question is what are the differences between all of the providers and what Van's sells. I here about Aerosport, ECI, Titan, Mattituck, Superior etc. Are these companies offering something different from what Van's sells which if I understand correctly is a standard Lycoming just not certified. I need to order my finish kit and they need engine information, I am fairly certain Dyno 1 mount will work with any of these companies since they are all IO-360s, I will also go with vertical induction, I have not heard anything about horizontal induction that makes me want to spend the extra money on that and besides I actually like the scoop in front.

So in short, in your opinion what makes any of the engine companies better than another with regards to IO-360 engines over the Lycoming Van's sells.

Mike-

When I bought my engine I asked the same question you have. Vans has (or had) some fantastic deals on the X-Lycomings during Oshkosh. Check into this if you haven't done so already.

My decision ultimately came down to whether I'd rather have a "real" Lycoming (but with unknown customer service and support that Lycoming might or might not provide) or an Aerosport whose reputation for customer service and backing their product is pretty amazing. I chose the latter and have no regrets. They even threw in Superior cylinders for the price of their ECI model. (Not sure why they did that, but it probably saved me from the ECI cylinder recall/SB! )

Writing that big check for the engine is tough! Good luck with your decision.

Mike,

When I was engine shopping, I discovered that the custom shops have little tricks and mods that they can make on Experimental engines that you wouldn't find on the Certified Lycomings - things like O-rings on the through-bolts that prevent pesky oil leaks, and holes for oil squirters up on the Cam - stuff like that. Little improvements from years and years of experience. Lycoming might very well have caught up and caught on to all these things, but I would give Mattituck, Aerosport, etc a call and ask them what the difference is between their Clones and a genuine Lycoming, and then make your decision based on the inputs you receive.

(At the time I bought, Lycoming did NOT have a great reputation on cylinder cooling fins, so i wanted different jugs - I think they have cleaned up their act on that....)

Paul

I talked to a couple different engine builders at OSH, and decided that if I ever need an engine built, it will be at Aerosport power or Barrett. Probably Aerosport unless I'm dripping money.

Same situation

I'm in the same situation. I honestly can't figure out what the difference is between these various suppliers. Anyone done a detailed comparison of these various engines?

I believe a lot of people buy a Lycoming from Van's for this reason - it's the safe road.

Honestly, it ALL comes down to the customer service. The engines are more or less the same (Unless you go with a IO-390, O-375, AEIO-340... or some other such oddity). Both Aerosport Power and Barrett Precision Engines seem to have GREAT people running the company, with impeccable customer service from what I've heard.

Sure, customer service is important, but one thing missing from this discussion is the differences between the clones and the Lycs.

ECI, and I believe Superior, too, spent many years in the business of inspecting engine parts to determine if they were suitable for reinstallation as part of an overhaul. During the course of this work, they found out where Lycoming weak points were, where they frequently failed. When they designed their own cylinders, they designed to avoid these same failures. They did have some problems of their own, but by and large, their parts are probably better than Lycoming's.

RScott said:

ECI, and I believe Superior, too, spent many years in the business of inspecting engine parts to determine if they were suitable for reinstallation as part of an overhaul. During the course of this work, they found out where Lycoming weak points were, where they frequently failed. When they designed their own cylinders, they designed to avoid these same failures. They did have some problems of their own, but by and large, their parts are probably better than Lycoming's.

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Is there any "best" / most robust combination of cylinders, cores, cranks, injection, etc? I know from other sports this is often the case, so how about between ECI, Superior, Lycoming, or even 3rd party components? What would your ideal engine build be?

RichB said:

Is there any "best" / most robust combination of cylinders, cores, cranks, injection, etc? I know from other sports this is often the case, so how about between ECI, Superior, Lycoming, or even 3rd party components? What would your ideal engine build be?

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I had Bart build me a roller tappet Superior engine, but with the ECI EXP cylinders. These have the venturi intake valves, which are supposed to give you some extra hp, and weigh less with the tapered fins. Also, they are nickel carbide, so no corrosion, and they break in quicker. I also have the LSE Plasma III EI on one side.

I have about 50 hours now on the new engine, and it is definitely a performer, with very good fuel efficiency. So mix and match worked for me.

Walter

rv8ch said:

I'm in the same situation. I honestly can't figure out what the difference is between these various suppliers. Anyone done a detailed comparison of these various engines?

I believe a lot of people buy a Lycoming from Van's for this reason - it's the safe road.

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Micky,

It is a safe road but sometimes the little extras by a company like Barrett make a difference. Depends how fussy you are about an engine and if you feel it is worth the extra cost. I went with them because they have a good record and are close enough to drive to for a shop tour.

They buy a kit direct from Lycoming and then apply their touch to it as it is assembled. The moving parts are balanced, the valve seats get a special 3 angle cut and the final assembly is run on a dyno to check its integrity with a full print out of all the values. This will be my last engine so I'm going for it and feel good about it.

Beyond that, I did an extensive tour of engine providers at OSH last year. They all look great and I could find no obvious disqualifying features with any of them. But in final analysis, of all the displays Lycoming looked the best. The engine case was smoother and maybe they used a better quality paint. I also like the Lycoming roller cam technology. I think it is better than Superior. Plus, Lycoming is not going away. They are moving forward technology wise and will be around when 100LL is no more. My engine will come with 8.5 pistons for that reason although Monty Barrett says they will run just fine at 9:1 on premium fuel.

engine choice

I just went throught this decision process and ended up choosing a Superior based roller tappet I0-360, with ECI Titan cylinders, from Aero Sport Power.
Roller tappets and ECI cylinders were chosen on the basis that as a "week-end" flyer, engine corrosion resistance was important.
The most important factor for me was the reputation of the engine builder - each of Lycoming and clone manufacturers claim to have better engine technology, but not being knowledgeable enough to really judge the various claims, I assumed that all were good, and differences minor. So, for me, it came down to choosing a builder with a good reputation, explaining my flying "mission" and priorities, and relying on the builder for advice.
I could not be happier with the service I received from Aero Sport, and the engine, in a colour scheme I chose, is a work of art. Any inquiries that I have had have been answered promptly. I have no reason to think that other well known builders would be any different.
You may wish to consider when choosing a builder whether they are "tied" to one engine manufacturer. If you buy from Van's, I assume that you deal with Lycoming for service and any engine questions. Whether Lycoming would provide the same level and extent of service as an independent builder is perhaps a factor to consider.
Bill Brooks
Ottawa, Canada
RV-6A still in progress.

osxuser said:

Honestly, it ALL comes down to the customer service. The engines are more or less the same (Unless you go with a IO-390, O-375, AEIO-340... or some other such oddity). Both Aerosport Power and Barrett Precision Engines seem to have GREAT people running the company, with impeccable customer service from what I've heard.

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I'll vouch for Allen and Rhonda at Barrett Precision Engines. They, and their engines, are absolutely top notch. Look at the difference in price, you will see the difference is minimal in the grand scheme of things.

Click the link, you won't be disappointed: http://www.bpaengines.com

I got the Barrett T-shirt.........and I wear it

Options

Unless something has recently changed, (sine the beginning of this year) If you want vertical inducion AND fuel injection, you will need to go clone.

The parallel valve engine offering from Lycoming is only carb. I like the parallel valve 360 CI engine because it is lighter and much cheaper that the angle valve version. I wanted one lightspeed and FI. Van's did not offer that without buying a complete engine and modifying it after the fact.

The clone suppliers will build the engine per your specs and run it in that way with a warranty maintained. Superior gave me great service on my roller tappet engine with 3 year warranty at a price similar to a plane jane O360A1A. I'm really happy with it. Mattituck should also be considered as they make great engines and provide great service. When I shopped, Superior gave me the best deal.

Uhhhh no....

Lycoming has made vertical induction fuel injected engines for years and years.

C-GRVT said:

I just went throught this decision process and ended up choosing a Superior based roller tappet I0-360, with ECI Titan cylinders, from Aero Sport Power.
Roller tappets and ECI cylinders were chosen on the basis that as a "week-end" flyer, engine corrosion resistance was important.

Bill Brooks
Ottawa, Canada
RV-6A still in progress.

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Is it the ECI Titan or the EXP cylinders? My Aersport Power engine built by Bart was similar with the roller tappet Superior engine but with the ECI EXP cylinders. These have the same nickel carbide bores, but are lighter with the tapered fins and flow more (extra hp) with the venturi intake valves. I have almost 50 hours now on this engine and love it. It is definitely more powerfull, as evidenced by my performance numbers as compared to others with the same plane and a standard 180 hp Lyc.

Walter

Lyc vertical inducuction FI

Jconard said:

Uhhhh no....

Lycoming has made vertical induction fuel injected engines for years and years.

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Perhaps, but they do not seem to offer it as new now, or at least not through Van's. What I did not realize, is that they do now offer a 180HP horizontal induction parallel valve engine.

Ask about the warranty

In my opinion the warranty is a deal breaker. Look at the warranty each provides. Some only warranty a year from the date you purchase. There are a couple that warranty 3 years from the date you start it or fly it. Quite a difference! What does that tell you about belief in the product?

Another thing, IMHO I think there is something to be said for buying American.
Don't get me wrong, I have never heard a bad word about Aero Sport, but I am hard pressed to see the benefit over ECI.

ymmv

Stewart

Lyc---Clones

This debate could go on forever, so just to add my .02 cents to the mix; I dropped off an engine at Barrett's a few years ago to be rebuilt for a friend. I was given the "tour" by Monte (the Founder of BPE.). I was totally impressed. They had numerous autographed photos of just about every aerobatic/show performer in the Air Show Buisiness. You won't believe who they build engines for. They make no excuses. A nickle or two more for what they provide is worth it in my oppinion.

No connection other than a personal tour by "the Old Man".

Experimental Lycoming

When I was at Oshkosh, I spent some time talking with Bart LaLonde at AeroSport Power.
I've been looking at the engines AeroSport Power has available. There is an interesting choice of experimental 360 engines.

The 180 hp parallel valve engines are available as follows:

O-360-A vertical induction.
IO-360-B vertical induction
IO-360-M horizontal induction.

The prices for the 180 hp 360 engines are comparable to the prices for the same engine from Van's Aircraft.

There are also 200 hp parallel valve AeroSport power 375 engines available as follows:

O-375 vertical induction.
IO-375-B vertical induction.
IO-375-M horizontal induction.

I understand that the 200 hp AeroSport Power 375 engine weighs the same as the Lycoming 360 parallel valve engine, and has the same basic fuel flow of the 180 hp engine.

The prices for the 375 engine is only slightly more than the price of the 360 engine, and considerably less than the price from Van's Aircraft for their 200 hp angle valve engine.

Regards,
Jim Ayers

We bought two TMX-360 s about three years ago for our Supercubs. Made several calls about oil seeping out of several places on both engines and was never taken seriously. At Sun&Fun this year I spoke to a salesman (off to one side as not to **** him off) and again I was brushed off. He said it was no big deal. Things changed when I closed with " it was enough of a big deal to us that we would be looking elsewhere for our IO-540,for the RV-10 we are building".