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Garmin vs AFS

stamper

Well Known Member
I know this is a big question with a lot of variables but was just wanting to get any thoughts on the Garmin ephis compared to the AFS. Looking at the 10" touch screen. Does anyone have experience with both and what are the pro's and con's of each.
 
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Bruce,

I suspect you are going to get quite a few opinions based upon what folks have installed in their aircraft. To keep all the cards face up on the table, my panel has AFS 4500s. The newer 5000 series are much more feature rich.

I don't personally don't have experience with the Garmin screens, but I've overheard conversations from those that have. Most of the comments seem to be intuitive ease of use for single pilot IFR with the preference for AFS. With that said, that's a highly subjective statement and may vary depending on your experience level and preferences.

The one big difference is the cost of data. AFS provides free updates after the initial purchase of the map license. Garmin doesn't.

I think the other advantage is support. AFS is much more responsive and customer friendly than Garmin. I've been given personal cell phone numbers of many of the AFS staff with instructions to call them from the plane to assist troubleshooting, even though its at night or on the weekend. The new experimental team has improved support, especially here on VAF, but I don't think its up to the caliber that Rob and his team provides. To be honest, I had a pretty unfavorable experience with a GTN650 repair that was not only expensive to resolve, I still have remnants of a screwed up squelch control. So I'm not a fan of Garmin.

bob
 
Bruce,

There are many choices to look at but I'm with Bob, Garmin is at the very bottom of my list for anything.

The only Garmin box I have is a GTN-650. In the first year it had three problems. I found out later two of the three problems were "known issues" to Garmin. All three repairs were on my dime as I exceeded the time from purchase warranty. Add to that the gross premium they charge for anything and you have a easy decision tree.

I never flown with AFS and I have a dual 10" SkyView install. I went with Dynon in no small part for their superb after the sale service. As Bob states it seem AFS has similar practices.

Carl
 
AFS vs Garmin

I have a RV-8 with AFS 4500 installed along with a Garmin 430 W Nav/comm and a 327 transponder.

I want more than my current system has to offer. AOA is a big priority for me.

I considered an upgrade to a AFS 5600T but for the cost it seems the Garmin is a good choice too.

Considering an upgrade to the Garmin G3X for the following reasons:

1. Better screen resolution.
2. The touch screen interface is more responsive and intuitive.
3. The layout and font seems less cluttered and easier to read.
4. SafeTaxi diagrams (Great for busy/complex airports)
5. Very sophisticated and user friendly autopilot system (even better with the GMC 307 control)
6. Angle of Attack system
7. High quality low cost remote mounted GTX 23 ES transponder gets you FAA 2020 ADS-B out compliant.
8. GDL 39R remote ADS-B in receiver provides traffic and weather
9. Garmin Connext Bluetooth enables Garmin Pilot app to interface with G3X and GTN.
10. Garmin ESP-X
11. Potentially better resale

The service I've received from AFS is amazing. I typically get to speak directly to Rob Hickman, CEO-AFS, the same day or the day following attempted contact. My concern AFS is, what if Rob Hickman moves
 
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While we are at it...

Should I prime or not...

How should holes be deburred...

Should I have a single, double or triple redundant system...

Recap or new tires...

Paint before or after first flight...

Old style FI or electronic FI...

Mags or electronic...maybe one of each...

LEDs or HIDs...

Dogs or cats...

Dogs and cats...living together...

Woohoo, we're on a roll now!:D:D:D

Feel free to add more if I missed any...
 
"The G3X team usually takes two weeks to a month to answer my questions via email."

Wow. I like their gear, but man, that is unacceptable service.

I'D suggest that at this point Dynon probably has "staying power" ... and since they own AFS, that should hopefully stick around as well ...
 
Garmin on the other hand isn't going anywhere. The G3X team usually takes two weeks to a month to answer my questions via email. They have however, always responded.

Imagine a world where Garmin kills the competition and is the only player in town. We dont have to imagine, it happened in the certified world. In good conscience, i dont think even pro-garmin people want to see this happen.
 
The "two weeks to a month" struck me as well.

Charlie brings up a fair point about Garmin being a solid company whereas Rob is a small businessman. Who knows how long he'll be around?

I think it's a bit of a circular argument, though... If everyone buys Garmin because Rob might not be around, Rob will most assuredly not be around for long. We're an experimental community. I plan to put my money back into this community.

I'd also turn the argument around - Garmin is a huge company. They could very easily decide to abandon the experimental market and focus those resources on the certified market, essentially abandoning us. Having worked for relatively large companies, I've seen this again and again - Companies abandoning a seemingly attractive market to focus on what the company views as their core competency.

I suspect I'm not the first one to make this argument :)
 
"The G3X team usually takes two weeks to a month to answer my questions via email."

Wow. I like their gear, but man, that is unacceptable service.

That is MOST DEFINITELY NOT what I've experienced. I've had fantastic support from Garmin.

I've received responses to an email question that I sent in towards the end of the business day the same day, after hours... so instead of waiting for the next work day, they were working to get me going that same day.

I've had a few calls/emails in to them. All but once, they were able to get me the information I needed during the initial call/email. The other time, they got me started on troubleshooting, and within a few days of back and forth (with great communication each day) we got that last issue resolved.

*** Late Edit: As Glen mentions below, my support has all been from the G3Xpert team, not the "Garmin Certified/GA" side of things.
 
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Technology choices aside, this thread has opened up the "support" question.

I consider the distributor and the avionics vendor as a team. Choose both a vendor and distributor who will work with you and strive to make you successful. I find very good support from the distributor for my avionics.


I'm not sure where the disconnect has been for those seeking Garmin assistance. I have asked both challenging and stupid questions via the G3Xpert email address. I have needed both single replies and extended exchanges. Replies have never been more than 36 hours and most common is less than 12 hours.

G3Xpert is different from Garmin Aviation Support.

I sent an email question to Garmin aviation support and after four days I sent the same question to G3Xpert. I got a straight answer reply from G3Xpert the next day and an obtuse answer from Garmin aviation support a week later.
 
Thanks guys these are the things I was wanting to hear. Just wanting to get a feel of what people have experienced both good and bad.
 
That is MOST DEFINITELY NOT what I've experienced. I've had fantastic support from Garmin.

I've received responses to an email question that I sent in towards the end of the business day the same day, after hours... so instead of waiting for the next work day, they were working to get me going that same day.

I've had a few calls/emails in to them. All but once, they were able to get me the information I needed during the initial call/email. The other time, they got me started on troubleshooting, and within a few days of back and forth (with great communication each day) we got that last issue resolved.

*** Late Edit: As Glen mentions below, my support has all been from the G3Xpert team, not the "Garmin Certified/GA" side of things.

My brief experience with G3X touch and the G3Xpert team has been near-flawless. I've had no actual system faults/failures - just lots of questions that have been promptly answered by the team (phone or email). I returned to flying with NO experience with EFIS / other glass systems this year, with G3X touch. I have found the basic functions to be very intuitive (change transponder code? - touch the code on the screen). Many little things I've learned from the team as part of an inquiry, or during flight - like touching a waypoint/airport on the map to get an AWOS frequency.

The autopilot/GMC controlller had a learning curve but after 5 months I consider myself an expert. Given that the last autopilot I used before that was a Piper/Century single axis unit, no surprise.

No experience with AFS so unable to provide a meaningful comparison.

My only criticism of G3X/Garmin is that I wish they had videos for G3X touch that are of the same quality as the ones Dynon did for Skyview - I actually studied those videos in the pre-buy process to learn more about EFIS/touch systems and still look at them occasionally to re-visit a concept.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy an airplane with AFS/GRT/Dynon if the functionality was on par with what I've become accustomed to. From what I can tell, all have outstanding products and excellent customer support. The concern with Garmin seems to be that experimental stuff is not their main (big Garmin) business driver, BUT the G3X team seems to be its own skunkworks inside the big company and every indication to me is that they are delivering high quality at a very reasonable price - it's not bad in my mind that they can take full advantage of the high-dollar tech being paid for by Cirrus/Cessna/light jet drivers....
 
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Not getting into another one of these threads but readers beware, this one is already full of false/misleading/misrepresenting information with a little bit of unbiased truth spread around as well.

There must be at least a 1000 of these type threads in the archives. They all end up the same...

Best to do your own research and talk to folks that don't have any bias toward the subject. That excludes 99.8% of the people on this forum. ;)
 
Life was so much simpler when all you had to choose from was steam gages. Do I want black and round, or round and black.
 
...
Charlie brings up a fair point about Garmin being a solid company whereas Rob is a small businessman. Who knows how long he'll be around?

...
FYI - AFS is owned by Dynon and if you look at Dynon, they are a pretty good size company with probably more yearly EFIS sales than Garmin.

I'm just saying, it is good to know who you are dealing with.
 
Garmin

I'm another that's had very positive experiences and support with Garmin Team X. In several cases, they have surprised me with responses nearing midnight of the same day, and 5:00 am the next morning. I don't think these guys get much sleep. They've also been quite patient and accommodating of my steep learning curve.
 
G3X vs AFS

I have a/c with both systems.

The G3X support is unbelievable. As one poster mentioned, I have had questions answered via email in the middle of the night. (those guys must not sleep). My dual G3X system has never had a "failure" since I have been using it about three years or so. The Garmin autopilot and servos are 10X better than the Tru-Trak autopilot which gave me constant problems.

I have an AFS 5500 and their tech support is also outstanding, fast and very helpful.

To compare the two:

The screen clarity and vividness is better in the G3X
Ease of use goes to the G3X. The AFS takes much more effort to master all the capabilities.
 
The service I've received from AFS is amazing. I typically get to speak directly to Rob Hickman, CEO-AFS, the same day or the day following attempted contact. My concern AFS is, what if Rob Hickman moves on? What will happen to AFS? Who is there to carry the AFS torch.

We have it on good authority that Rob isn't moving on :)

More seriously, AFS branded products are supported by the total Dynon/AFS family. We still handle deep technical support for each product line within the division that knows them best. But, broadly speaking, whether you buy a Dynon or AFS branded product from us, you're signing up for the same caliber of support that others here have mentioned.
 
AFS Customer service

We have little experience with Garmin but...AFS customer service and product has been outstanding. It is important to note that AFS is not only Rob ( sorry Rob)... Rob, Jenny, Shawn, Jeffery, Trisha, Isaac, Ken ect....all have provided a level of customer service. Build a relationship with guys like the team at AFS and you will not regret your decision. I am sure Garmin and others have similar experience...this is just our experience.
 
Experimental Avionics

Hi Bruce,
Great question and expect a lot of opinions. I have AFS EFIS, some steam gauges for backup, Garmin 625 gps because they are a monopoly, and a couple of other Garmin products.

That being said, I would suggest that you log into each of the experimental avionics support websites and read their forum. Pay particular attention to the issues the owners are having or have had. Notice how long it takes to resolve the issue. Notice the norm of when something doesn't work, the support staff typically advice of a software upgrade. Notice how a lot of times the upgrade is due to a previous problem or vaporware or was promised months earlier. Don't take my word for it. Go there and read for yourself. Some companies have the president in the middle of resolving issues. Other companies have hired specialized help to work those issues. Try and follow the logic of some of the answers and how oftentimes the problem is with another supplier's product. Listen to the excuses provided as to why a software upgrade is late or delayed. Listen to the tone of the responses. You can learn a lot about what you read there than you will here as we will never call OUR baby ugly.

Product compatibility with other products is a real and time consuming issue. If you have an avionics guy you can assign to workout all the bugs and they have lots of time on their hands, then you can go with anyone. However, if you are new to avionics, and really don't want to learn about software versions, known compatibility issues, and weird interactions, then you may want to stick with one brand for the whole panel. I hate this advice because this is what the experimental avionic manufactures want you to do. I'm one of the few folks who believe that competition is good for the business and products should work out of the box with no upgrades or software revisions. How many revisions did the old steam gauges needs?

Also, take note that there is no competition when it comes to certified GPS. Garmin has that market cornered and you are at the mercy to them to pay what they want to use their stuff. The other experimental avionics companies are fighting tooth and nail to get market share and thus trying to earn your business. But they can't compete (or won't) with Garmin on the certified GPS.

By the way, I saw a post here on VAF where a comparison between Dynon and AFS was made. Search the archive to see if that helps you distinguish between the two.

I decided to go with AFS which was a purely economical decision. I got a great deal. For me, economics plays an important role in my flying hobby. Note, VAF Classifieds can be your friend. :)

Good luck!!
cj

I know this is a big question with a lot of variables but was just wanting to get any thoughts on the Garmin ephis compared to the AFS. Looking at the 10" touch screen. Does anyone have experience with both and what are the pro's and con's of each.
 
Let me interupt the prime question in this thread to make a correction.

I have read in several posts that Garmin has a monoply on IFR nevigators, and while that has been true in the past, it is no longer so. Avidyne has entered the market with some very nice products and is actively joining in the Experimental world - so keep an eye on them.

We now return you to your argument over who'se baby is prettier.....
 
Hello everyone,
I was directed to this thread based off of some of the responses and wanted to provide some guidance to assist you with.
Our policy on the certified product side of the Garmin product support (My team) is to answer all e-mails within a 24 hours period. obviously this sometimes varies depending on how many e-mails we get after hours, weekend and over holiday periods as our main focus during the business day is to be available on the phones when called. but we make every effort to try and get to e-mails in the 24 hour period. This basically outlines our certified product side, if you're needing assistance on an experimental product line I would recommend directing these install questions to the [email protected] e-mail address. this e-mail address is manned by 2 to 3 people each day as well as the phones to assist you. on these we also focus on providing input to the customer in a 24 hour period however this is dedicated to experimental products. so if you send a G3X question to the regular aviation support line we then have to get this to the experimental team for guidance which can sometimes delay a response. if there is ever an excessive delay in getting a response please don;t hesitate to contact me directly and I can provide any needed assistance as well.

Please let me know if there are any questions,
 
An Open Apology to Garmin - Setting the Record Straight

In post #5 of this thread, I stated the following:

"Garmin on the other hand isn't going anywhere. The G3X team usually takes two weeks to a month to answer my questions via email. They have however, always responded."

I checked my emails and found this information to be inaccurate.

I accept full responsibility for this mistake. I strive to report accurate information that is truthful and correct. As soon as I became aware of this error I took prompt action to research it and promptly correct it. I offer my sincerest apology to those who I misled and misrepresented by what I wrote.

The fact is Garmin has never taken longer than three (3) days to answer my emails. In one case they answered the same day.

Sincerely,
 
Certified

Paul,
Thanks for correcting me on the Garmin monopoly statement. It is good to see some competition in that sector of the marketplace.
Cj


Let me interupt the prime question in this thread to make a correction.

I have read in several posts that Garmin has a monoply on IFR nevigators, and while that has been true in the past, it is no longer so. Avidyne has entered the market with some very nice products and is actively joining in the Experimental world - so keep an eye on them.

We now return you to your argument over who'se baby is prettier.....
 
The fact is Garmin has never taken longer than three (3) days to answer my emails. In one case they answered the same day.

Hello Charlie,

No apology necessary, but we very much appreciate you setting the record straight.

As we discussed with Charlie, we typically place the highest priority on quick answers to customers seeking installation or operational assistance, with sales inquiries being handled at a bit lower priority.

As Trek explained above, we strive to provide immediate service to all and don't want anyone waiting more than 24 hours, and in the case of Charlie's questions on choosing a system, we clearly need to do better.

Thanks,
Steve
 
In post #5 of this thread, I stated the following:

"Garmin on the other hand isn't going anywhere. The G3X team usually takes two weeks to a month to answer my questions via email. They have however, always responded."

I checked my emails and found this information to be inaccurate.

I accept full responsibility for this mistake. I strive to report accurate information that is truthful and correct. As soon as I became aware of this error I took prompt action to research it and promptly correct it. I offer my sincerest apology to those who I misled and misrepresented by what I wrote.

The fact is Garmin has never taken longer than three (3) days to answer my emails. In one case they answered the same day.

Sincerely,

Very good for you Charlie. Great job setting the record straight!
 
Thanks for all the threads here. I have been working in Alaska none stop since the middle of April with most weeks 100 hour weeks (not joking 100+) . So I don't get any time to look into the rv10 stuff tell about now and through the winter when I get to do nothing but work on the 10. So I was just getting a feel of people's thoughts, and the avionics change so fast. I didn't relize with Garmin u had to pay for the upgrades so that was good to know.
User friendly like being able to push the least amount of buttons to go direct or inter a flight plan, or look at asos at a airport. These are the things that I am most interested in.
I also know most people haven't had a chance to fly behind both Garmin and AFS but maybe someone has. Sounds like there support in both are good to work with.
Thanks again guys. I haven't seen my rv10 since February so it will be good to see it again.
 
What I would recommend is you fly both systems and decide for yourself.

We are about 5 miles from Van's and have an RV-10 with three AF-5600T EFIS screens and both a Garmin GTN650 and Avidyne IFD540. Come visit and we can fly multiple approaches with both the IFD540 and GTN650 with the EFIS screens and you decide can decide which actually works better. I can tell you that the IFD540 Nav radio will pick up a VOR or ILS signal much further out than the GTN650. The IFD-540 also has built-in Bluetooth and WiFi, Multi Touch screen for pinch zooming and, like the AF-5600, has dedicated buttons for when it is turbulent.



Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc / Dynon Avionics
N402RH RV-10
 
I didn't relize with Garmin u had to pay for the upgrades so that was good to know.

Garmin firmware upgrades to their experimental products are free.

Database updates for the G3X Touch are available for as low as $49.99 a year.
 
We have little experience with Garmin but...AFS customer service and product has been outstanding. It is important to note that AFS is not only Rob ( sorry Rob)... Rob, Jenny, Shawn, Jeffery, Trisha, Isaac, Ken ect....all have provided a level of customer service. Build a relationship with guys like the team at AFS and you will not regret your decision. I am sure Garmin and others have similar experience...this is just our experience.

Don't forget Brian and Kelsey!!! It's a whole family kind of business :)
 
We have it on good authority that Rob isn't moving on :)

More seriously, AFS branded products are supported by the total Dynon/AFS family. We still handle deep technical support for each product line within the division that knows them best. But, broadly speaking, whether you buy a Dynon or AFS branded product from us, you're signing up for the same caliber of support that others here have mentioned.

To further support the Dynon/AFS family, I had a problem with a dynon labeled box, Rob offered and took it at his shop and Jenny hand delivered it rebooted the next day. Fixed at no charge in the middle of this flying season.
 
Best to try out each one... I was really on the fence. I really liked what AFS and Rob had to offer. I think their products are indeed top notch. In the end I went Garmin.
Here's why. It was't price, because they are very close, negligible even.
I have been flying and using Garmin products for a couple years and during training. (430, 650, G1000, G900) because that's what's in the planes I trained in and rent. I figured since I understood the Garmin logic and flow already, it would be an easier learning curve for me to stick with it. Garmin does maintain the same logic structure across all of their products. So, it just made sense for me to stick with what I know.

That being said, AFS might be just as easy to learn and it might have made no difference, but that's how I made my choice. Time will tell if I was right since I'm not flying just yet.
 
Rob hickman

Rob,

Rob if you see this can you tell us the difference with your red box verses the vertical power. Or where I can go to get more info on it. Thanks
 
The AFS red box is a combination fuse panel, electrical buss and a modular data buss hub. It does not switch loads as far as I know.

Obviously the VPX is an electrical buss system that switches loads and includes electronic current protection.
 
The AFS red box is a combination fuse panel, electrical buss and a modular data buss hub. It does not switch loads as far as I know.

Obviously the VPX is an electrical buss system that switches loads and includes electronic current protection.

Yes, it does switch loads.

The Advanced Control Module, the heart of the Quick Panel System, integrates circuit protection, load switching, panel dimmer controller, flap controller, trim controller, Wig-Wag controller, EFIS networking and a panel switch interface.

? 22 Channels of Circuit Protection
? Panel Dimmer Controller
? Flap Controller with Positioning
? Trim Controller
? Wig Wag Landing Light Controller
? SV Network Hub
? EFIS ARINC interface
? Panel Switch Interface

Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
N402RH RV-10
 
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