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Losing hope before starting...

danielhv

Well Known Member
Backstory: When I was single I started a -7. Tail, wings, and a good bit of the fuse, then ended up selling because I was relocating, getting married, and starting a family. Didn't see time or space to continue.

These days (12 years later) I'm married with 3 young kids... I travel a good bit for work, so time at home is limited to weekends and about 1 week of half days per month.

I want an RV. I'm a big guy, 6'4", bumping 250lbs. Would fit into a -7, but had my heart set on a -14... But with the way costs are heading... engines now bumping $60k, shipping upwards of $1k, I'm getting discouraged financially before even starting.

We can't afford to buy a flying plane. And my biggest motivation for building is spreading out the cost over time PLUS the repairman cert.

I don't know if I'm just hesitating because I don't see a clear way to afford completing something like this once starting, or if I'm just having the nervous jitters of pressing the order button after so long. I guess my thought was to get into the build, and we will figure it out $ for the next step as we go. May take longer, but at least I'm chipping away at it.

Just discouraging how expensive this all has gotten since my last involvement. $7k for a tail kit shipped.... I think I paid $2k shipped for my -7 tail feathers... Big pill to swallow now.
 
Not downplaying the cost at all, but you are the biggest motivator to make it happen.

I bought my tail kit newly married with just enough money for the kit and shipping, not a clue how I was gonna afford the wings but I knew I wanted to build. It was a 9 year build mostly waiting on the money, also 3 kiddos in the mean time.

Almost 9 years flying and 600+ hours of flying and 3 more kids I’m so glad I stuck with it. It is SO WORTH IT!
Finishing my build I wondered how I was ever gonna afford to fly it, turns out I can’t fly it enough!
 
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Not downplaying the cost at all, but you are the biggest motivator to make it happen.

I bought my tail kit newly married with just enough money for the kit and shipping, not a clue how I was gonna afford the wings but I knew I wanted to build. It was a 9 year build mostly waiting on the money, also 3 kiddos in the mean time.

Almost 9 years flying and 600+ hours of flying and 3 more kids I’m so glad I stuck with it. It is SO WORTH IT!
Finishing my build I wondered how I was ever gonna afford to fly it, turns out I can’t fly it enough!

I guess I need to take my wife's advice here - and not have an expected timeline with this.... It could be 3 years, it could be 9 like yours. I need to learn to be ok with that.
 
Doesn’t the -14 “tail kit” include half the fuselage as well? That could explain some of the cost difference as well…at least emotionally…
 
Doesn’t the -14 “tail kit” include half the fuselage as well? That could explain some of the cost difference as well…at least emotionally…

That does appear to be correct - and does justify some of the increased cost. Good reminder! I plan to place the order Thursday. I happen to be in Portland this week, so I'm going to swing by and order in person.
 
Van's had record sales during covid. Have some cash ready because in the next two years, there will be many opportunities to purchase kits far below current prices. Go ahead and purchase your first kit so you get going, but be ready to find a deal on the next kits.
 
I’m 6ft 5” and fit quite comfortably into an unmodified 7/9 fuselage. They come at a significantly cheaper price. Maybe that’s still a consideration for you - especially as build time appears less important than price?
 
Are you a builder, or are you a flyer? That is the question.

I have finally figured out that I am not a builder, even though I hold an A&P certificate, and have most of the skills required to build a Vans kit.

So I bought an RV-6A that needed a fair amount of TLC to become airworthy.

Then I wanted a taildragger, with a slider canopy, and a CS prop. So, again, I bought a used one in pretty good nick, and have flown it for many happy hours, while still spending a fair amount of time maintaining and modifying it.

For me, that is my sweet spot. ............ Too old to build now anyway!...........

So, again, the question is: Are you a builder, or are you a flyer?
 
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Supportive wife

I guess I need to take my wife's advice here - and not have an expected timeline with this.... It could be 3 years, it could be 9 like yours. I need to learn to be ok with that.

Sounds like you have a supportive wife. That is an asset that is priceless.
 
I get calls every month from people wanting, or thinking they want to build an RV.

Simple few questions

1. Do you want an RV or do you want to build an aeroplane ?

If you want to build an aeroplane - proceed

2. Do you have at least a double garage ?

If you do - proceed

3. Do you have any experience ?

Makes no difference, it will be a learning experience

4. Do you have a build partner ?

If you do - consider building any RV

If not - build an RV12, enjoy the build, if you want more excitement when finished, sell, partner up and get the RV you desire.


There are at least 3 guys round here that after discussion, are well into a 12 build, loving it, achieving and making good progress.

Any RV is a challenge to build, it will provide fantastic flying when finished and will always cover its material costs, not time costs - but that is fun and therapy !
 
Given the time constraints you noted "weekends and about 1 week of half days per month" coupled with the fact you have 3 young children, I think build time will be your greatest constraint. When I started my -6A I had no kids, and had two when I finished. Progress was fast pre-child and slowed to a crawl afterwards, priorities change. Overall, it took me 10 years almost to the day (I also did the paint myself).

You and I are the same height (6'4"), but I am closer to 265. I fit very comfortably in my 6A with the pedals forward and the almost -14 seatback mod.

If building is your goal, then do it. If your goal is to fly, but the flying -14s are to expensive, go ahead and buy a -7 and enjoy it. Yes, you will have to hire out the annual condition inspection, but you can still do all the maintenance and repairs yourself.

Edit: If you are up in the McKinney area sometime and want to sit in an RV built for a big guy the let me know. Given both our size, I don't think I could take you for a flight though.
 
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Ideas for Time Savings

Daniel,

I encourage you to stick with it. My perspective is that problems tend to solve themselves. The encouraging wife? That's hard as heck to find. I started with 3 kids under 7, running a small bsusiness, and never having built anything.

Consider the following time saving ideas.
  1. One thing I leared from someone on this site (was not smart enough to note who when I saw it) was to do the drugery work up front. After inventory, we do ALL bulk deburring.
  2. We also walk through the plans to find out what must be cut, or modified and, where reasonable, we do that cut/modification.
  3. We have chosen to prime, so we have a series of massive priming sessions to get that out of the way, too.
  4. Scour this site for plenty of ideas on organization - fail to plan....
  5. Deadlines? Don't even go there. I'll be finished in 10 years from whenever asked.

Doing these things takes LOADS of time and is generally NOT fun. BUT, once complete, construction seems to fly... ..there is no stopping to attack these painful issues. We bumbled our way through the tail kit and it was painful. We are using the above approach with the wings and, for us, it's the way to go.

Stick with it. The financial questions are substantial. It will not be easy, but you'll figure a way to get through them.

Best regards,
Mike
 
I found building an RV to be a constant hemorrhaging of money. Pretty much all the money I had. Now that it’s done, owning, maintaining and flying it just takes most of my money. If you are going to finish it you have to adopt it as a lifestyle and an expensive one at that.
 
I was in your boat 25 years ago. Many, many nights working in the shop after the kids went to sleep. Grabbing a few minutes here and there as time allowed to finish a task. I was creative financing the project. With a very inexpensive engine, I finished my -8 for less than $40k. I have continued upgraded equipment periodically over the 22 years mine's been flying.

As for he costs - it's tough. Even owning and operating a 100% paid for RV. And yes, this inflation does actually exist. The added 8.5% annual income tax is getting tough on us normal people. Absolutely devastating to people of minimal means. And yet, somehow thousands of people are continuing to get into general aviation over the last 10 years. It's good for the industry, but seeing 152s going for $55k. 172s for over $100k. Gas $7+/gal, oil $10/qt, filters $35... It's not heading in a good direction for middle class aviators. No way to sugar coat it. A partnership on a flying plane might be a good way to go. But if you can finish the RV, you'll have a decently valued and appreciating asset.

Last point - be careful sacrificing the time with the family. Especially he kids. They'll only be little once.
 
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I guess I need to take my wife's advice here - and not have an expected timeline with this.... It could be 3 years, it could be 9 like yours. I need to learn to be ok with that.

I feel ya there..... I started my kit and had a career change, house move, and 2 kids. I had an expected timeline at the start, and get discouraged when thinking about it. Even now I'm eager to work on the project to meet 'my' expected timeline, but I'm deep into another (house finishing) project that is a real priority before the holidays come this year, so I know several months here will be lost.

Keep your head up and make sure the family needs are taken care of. Work as little or as much as you can or should. While I understand you really want (and will) enjoy the airplane with your kids, with a -14 you're looking at this being you and your wife's traveler in the long term. Keep discussing your goal together and the joy it will bring to your adventures someday.
 
Well, I'm not so sure

It's almost sacrilege on these blogs to suggest a person NOT build....but..
my concern with your story is this:

Weekends and a few half days are not a lot of time while building. Few will admit it, but you can spend an hour just looking for the right hardware to do a small project. And you have 3 small children. What about when they get older?...Ball games...birthdays...graduations...family vacations...? Will your supportive wife REMAIN supportive when the build eats into almost all of your free time? As far as the money, will the RV money cause a rift if you can't put money away for college, etc. for your kids?....Don't really know your situation, but it sounds like you are on somewhat of the ragged edge of being able to afford this...and kids are expensive.

I might suggest you spend a couple of hundred each month to rent/fly a nice plane (way cheaper than building), and when your kids are gone and you have more free time, build a little later in life. You should have more money and more free time then...with less strain on your situation. It may not be ideal, but an RV is not worth losing your marriage or family over. Regardless, you should chew this decision down to the bone.

I have no dog in this hunt and could be completely wrong about your situation. I've been wrong before..and will be again. Good luck whichever way you decide to go.
 
It's almost sacrilege on these blogs to suggest a person NOT build....but..
my concern with your story is this:

Weekends and a few half days are not a lot of time while building. Few will admit it, but you can spend an hour just looking for the right hardware to do a small project. And you have 3 small children. What about when they get older?...Ball games...birthdays...graduations...family vacations...? Will your supportive wife REMAIN supportive when the build eats into almost all of your free time? As far as the money, will the RV money cause a rift if you can't put money away for college, etc. for your kids?....Don't really know your situation, but it sounds like you are on somewhat of the ragged edge of being able to afford this...and kids are expensive.

I might suggest you spend a couple of hundred each month to rent/fly a nice plane (way cheaper than building), and when your kids are gone and you have more free time, build a little later in life. You should have more money and more free time then...with less strain on your situation. It may not be ideal, but an RV is not worth losing your marriage or family over. Regardless, you should chew this decision down to the bone.

I have no dog in this hunt and could be completely wrong about your situation. I've been wrong before..and will be again. Good luck whichever way you decide to go.

My thoughts exactly…I started a -7 20 years ago and sold it for family issues. Once the kids were out of the nest I wrote a check for a -10, it was cheaper than having the kids. In hindsight sight, there was little time in life to build without taking away from the family. Your mileage may vary.
 
Are you a builder, or are you a flyer? That is the question.

I have finally figured out that I am not a builder, even though I hold an A&P certificate, and have most of the skills required to build a Vans kit.

So I bought an RV-6A that needed a fair amount of TLC to become airworthy.

Then I wanted a taildragger, with a slider canopy, and a CS prop. So, again, I bought a used one in pretty good nick, and have flown it for many happy hours, while still spending a fair amount of time maintaining and modifying it.

For me, that is my sweet spot. ............ Too old to build now anyway!...........

So, again, the question is: Are you a builder, or are you a flyer?

That’s a key question. I love tinkering in the garage…cars, boats, tractors, motorcycles…was a factory-trained MOPAR mechanic when I was a kid. I’ve also been a pilot for over 50 years. I decided to buy a plane again a few years ago but couldn’t bring myself to seriously consider the rather plentiful crop of 40-50 year-old airplanes with their ancient cockpits and instrumentation from the 1950’s. In the meantime, Experimental aviation had really come into its own over the last decade. So I was faced with the build-or-fly equation too. My life simply did not allow the very substantial commitment to building an airplane, and I must say that in considering that possibility, my surfing here on VAF and EAA forums demonstrated a taste of the myriad questions and problems that such a commitment entailed, even worse now apparently given higher demand and ongoing supply-chain problems, and helped convince me that building was not a practical consideration for me. Instead, I bought a beautiful and affordable 9 year-old flying -9A with full IFR glass cockpit and that experience has vastly exceeded virtually ALL of my personal aviation expectations. Maintenance, repair, and upgrades completely satisfy any desire for tinkering and prevent me from ever having to wish that I had built the plane instead. YMMV, but I can certainly see how your current life would make building a difficult undertaking. You’d have to really be committed and your wife/family very supportive.

As to fitting inside, an RV-14 would be a great airplane to buy but they’re less common and much more expensive than a -7 or -9. I’m pretty short but my son is 6’5”. He fits in the plane just OK (knees), but I can readily see that resetting the rudder pedals and the lower cushion position along with my existing Almost-A-14 mod would put him in that airplane comfortably.
 
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It’s expensive having a young family. I could never have done this 8-10 years ago. Even though I had a good job, my wife didn’t really work and things were always tight.

Consider what you will be giving up with the money you WILL be spending on this project. Vacations, college savings, nicer clothes, gifts, etc.

I’m 55 and 4 years into this build having already spent at least 25k on tools, kits, and rent for my shop. And I’ve just begun the fuselage with all the expensive stuff coming up. But my kids are done for the most part and my wife has gone back to work.

There is a reason that you see old guys in sports cars. It took a long time to get to that point of being able to afford nice toys.

I don’t know your individual situation but it’s possible you’re not ready for this and there is no shame in it. It just is what it is.
 
Yep. If u have doubts now, they will continually creep into your mind in the future. Building is very long process that will test u many times. Test your persistence. Test your endurance. Test your finances. Test your sanity. Good luck. No one can decide for you except YOU.
 
Yep. If u have doubts now, they will continually creep into your mind in the future. Building is very long process that will test u many times. Test your persistence. Test your endurance. Test your finances. Test your sanity. Good luck. No one can decide for you except YOU.

I'll second this. Even if you don't have doubts when you start, they'll catch up with you and there'll be days you wish you had never started and wonder why you thought you could build an airplane.

I began my build a year ago and already my estimated cost to finish the project has gone up 15%. I keep reminding myself that if I give up, I can likely sell what I've got and recoup at least a fair portion of my costs. Patiences with yourself and your finances is going to be essential.

Do consider that if it the project drags on long enough your children will be big enough to help you. Just spending that time working on the project together will be rewarding.
 
Some excellent points already made here, I'll try to come up with something new.

I'm 13 years into a 2 year SeaRey build, and it's almost tripled over what I budgeted for. I love my seagull friends, but it's nowhere near the support group in the RV community, I've heard that there's a RV at almost every airport in the US and I wouldn't doubt it, so you've got a great support system to back you up.

Growing up, some of the best (and yes, occasional worst) times I remember are in the workshop with my Dad, and maybe this will be something your family will bond around, not everyone needs to be soccer or basketball parents. DON'T fall into the trap of limiting daughters if you have any, I know some **** good women A&Ps. Like you, my wife also has encouraged me, and if I come home from a trip grumpy and out of sort she knows to send me to the hangar for a couple precious hours instead of being home casting a dark cloud, and I'll come home in a better mood afterwards. With luck, you could be the "cool dad" who brings the kids to the airport on the weekend instead of the mall, or whereever, especially since you're fortunate enough to have a wife supporting you. You never know.


Really, the essential question is the one others have asked: are you a builder, or a flyer? Would you be happy with a 20 year build, not completing the project until after the kids are gone, or do you want to fly right now?


Good luck!
 
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In my experience, the most important part of building a plane is momentum. I built mine in 3-1/2 years and the only way I was able to do it was by doing something every day. Without that it would have been another unfinished project clogging up my garage. I know that this not a universal response, but you should ask yourself how much it would bother you if you started and never finished. I don't know what the completion rates are, but I can't imagine it's all that high. Factor in the money part of it and it can be a lot to handle. Don't do it if it's just going to sit and take up space and cause you guilt for not finishing it. Otherwise, go for it! It's likely one of the most rewarding ventures out there, flying something you built in your garage.
 
This is kind of a crappy time to find deals on RV kits.
The RV world is certainly an aberration in the prices of orphaned kits. Used to be about 70-80% of acquisition cost, but now, ten year old kits are going for today's prices, or more! Crazy.

Realistically, with your work travel and family situation, it is going to be a long slog to build. When I was in your situation, minus the travel, I had a 4 tail going, and finished it, but could not get to the next step financially. Fifteen years later the equation was much different (well, that and a different wife...). I greatly enjoyed building the 4 tail and worked on it after the kids went to bed. So, I knew I was a builder, but it would have to wait.
 
Backstory: When I was single I started a -7. Tail, wings, and a good bit of the fuse, then ended up selling because I was relocating, getting married, and starting a family. Didn't see time or space to continue.

These days (12 years later) I'm married with 3 young kids... I travel a good bit for work, so time at home is limited to weekends and about 1 week of half days per month.

I want an RV. I'm a big guy, 6'4", bumping 250lbs. Would fit into a -7, but had my heart set on a -14... But with the way costs are heading... engines now bumping $60k, shipping upwards of $1k, I'm getting discouraged financially before even starting.

We can't afford to buy a flying plane. And my biggest motivation for building is spreading out the cost over time PLUS the repairman cert.

I don't know if I'm just hesitating because I don't see a clear way to afford completing something like this once starting, or if I'm just having the nervous jitters of pressing the order button after so long. I guess my thought was to get into the build, and we will figure it out $ for the next step as we go. May take longer, but at least I'm chipping away at it.

Just discouraging how expensive this all has gotten since my last involvement. $7k for a tail kit shipped.... I think I paid $2k shipped for my -7 tail feathers... Big pill to swallow now.

Maybe you can try the -7 again.
https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=210222

I put in at least $500 per month buying tools and junks for the build project. Nobody I know has all the tools.

My most financially painful buys are the engines and avionics. The kit price seems to be a small purchase compare to them. Just to put things into perspective. It always cost a whole lot more than you think or want.
 
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