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  #1  
Old 12-09-2021, 10:55 AM
wawrzynskivp wawrzynskivp is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Incline Village Nv
Posts: 313
Default The relationship between Right of Way and being a Jerk

I somewhat hesitate to share this experience because these things sometimes come across as whinge-ing.

Single runway non-towered field 14-32. CAVU, light variable winds no particular direction. No wind runway is 32. Three airplanes in pattern with tight interval each for full stop. One airplane at hold short of 14.

#3: XXX Traffic, N### on base full stop runway 32 XXX Traffic

#3: XXX Traffic, N### turning final runway 32 full stop XXX Traffic

Departing AC: XXX Traffic N### departing runway 14

#3 Aircraft taking 14, do you see the airplane on final for 32?

Departing Aircraft: Yes I see you, I am taking off 14

I was #3 watching an airplane begin their roll towards me when I was perhaps 300' off the ground on short final. I should have been lower but had begun my go-around and was beginning to side step the departing traffic.

Right of Way rules are far more than 'who is in the wrong' for any particular situation. They are a guide on how to behave and how to interact long before the conflict is apparent. I have no idea what was inside the individual's mind that set up a head on with landing traffic. But if they were a decent human being and fully understood Right of Way, then I can't see how they would have convinced themselves that not waiting that one more minute was worth it.

If we consider Right of Way to be clearly understandable and not 'confusing' as some people prefer to believe. Then we have a universal guide on how to avoid getting into meeting situations.

I urge anyone who thinks of 91.113 as confusing or vague to get back into those 341 words and read them until you understand them back and forth. Don't cheat yourself or somebody else by the excuses that 'they are badly worded' 'don't apply to every situation' 'contradict what my flight instructor taught me'

Right of way is not about forcing a meeting situation into a close call. Right of way is about not getting into meeting situations. It's about not being a jerk.

I offer this story and perspective because of the number of times certificated aviators give a scenario and ask 'who has the right of way?' If you have to ask, then ask...better than just not knowing. But the volume of questions on this subject is saying something. I also sense a lot of defensiveness and rice bowl thinking when the forum covers right of way. I feel too many people use well intentioned articles, or lectures, or advisory documents on pseudo 'right of way' in place of the actual rules. It takes less than three minutes to read the real thing! There is no substitute for knowing what the law says especially on something that has the potential to become a Time Critical Task on each and every flight. Pushing back on Right of Way by thinking that consideration is a better approach, is an incomplete understanding. We can be the most considerate in our flying by knowing enough about Right of Way that there is never a question in our minds or the minds of those we might otherwise meet.

Last edited by wawrzynskivp : 12-09-2021 at 01:41 PM.
  #2  
Old 12-09-2021, 11:22 AM
odens_14 odens_14 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: West Central, MN
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life would be much simpler if the FAA just added two new FARS:
FAR #1 Don't be a jerk
FAR #2 See FAR #1
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  #3  
Old 12-09-2021, 11:31 AM
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Carlos151 Carlos151 is offline
 
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It is sad to see that the knuckleheads we see on the road are coming into aviation with the same “it’s all about me” attitude. It’s times like you described when I wish I had a trusty 20mm on the pointy end to dispose of such trash. Unfortunately these occasions of lack of courtesy or common sense are increasing instead of decreasing. If you tried to have a conversation with such an individual so that they might learn something they would ignore your efforts. I have found that see and avoid is the best course of action. Darwin has a way of catching up with knuckleheads, your mission is to not let them take you out.
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  #4  
Old 12-09-2021, 11:39 AM
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Mike S Mike S is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos151 View Post
Darwin has a way of catching up with knuckleheads, your mission is to not let them take you out.
Love this statement.
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  #5  
Old 12-09-2021, 12:20 PM
FlyingDiver FlyingDiver is online now
 
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Was that KGAI?
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  #6  
Old 12-09-2021, 12:28 PM
wawrzynskivp wawrzynskivp is offline
 
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Location: Incline Village Nv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingDiver View Post
Was that KGAI?
Not KGAI. Small field on the other side of the country.

Doing my best to not impugn anyone, just the behavior of that aircraft.
  #7  
Old 12-09-2021, 12:53 PM
bill.hutchison bill.hutchison is offline
 
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Location: Northern VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingDiver View Post
Was that KGAI?
Hahahah!!!

While I expected that he was speaking of a FL-based airport, I also thought of KGAI while reading it.
  #8  
Old 12-09-2021, 12:57 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Location: Livermore, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wawrzynskivp View Post
Doing my best to not impugn anyone, just the behavior of that aircraft.
Well, I’m not above naming names. At nearby Byron (C83) there is a busy parachuting operation. The jumpers land, assemble, and depart near the approach end of 12. Even when the wind and traffic favor 30, the jump plane routinely departs on 12, even when there’s substantial traffic using 30. So I was in your shoes - short final for 30, jump plane on the runway coming at me. When I called (again) on the radio, they said, ‘Don’t worry, we’ll miss you’. It was too close for me, I aborted. I know these guys are a business, and ‘time is money’. But you get the impression that they think I’m not burning av gas, just like them.
Parachutists, gliders, powered aircraft, all use C83 and get along-except for that jump plane.
  #9  
Old 12-09-2021, 01:11 PM
wawrzynskivp wawrzynskivp is offline
 
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Location: Incline Village Nv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
Well, I’m not above naming names. At nearby Byron (C83) there is a busy parachuting operation. The jumpers land, assemble, and depart near the approach end of 12. Even when the wind and traffic favor 30, the jump plane routinely departs on 12, even when there’s substantial traffic using 30. So I was in your shoes - short final for 30, jump plane on the runway coming at me. When I called (again) on the radio, they said, ‘Don’t worry, we’ll miss you’. It was too close for me, I aborted. I know these guys are a business, and ‘time is money’. But you get the impression that they think I’m not burning av gas, just like them.
Parachutists, gliders, powered aircraft, all use C83 and get along-except for that jump plane.
That's a tough one to endure ethically. My story could have been a one-off mistake for the airplane on 14, so not starting the Deviation process could be rationalized. But we all know shoe-string operations that begin to make completely unnecessary maneuvers part of their normal operations. When we can see the likelihood of the upcoming mishap on a non-stop ascent what do we do? 'I can hack it' is the mindset that is working against all of us. They can hack the tight departures, I can hack the go around, what about the schmuck who can't hack it?


Not saying I would know what to do...but it is a tough one you have my sympathies.
  #10  
Old 12-09-2021, 01:12 PM
OKAV8r OKAV8r is offline
 
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Location: Seattle
Posts: 252
Default Thread hijack in progress....

Quote:
Originally Posted by wawrzynskivp View Post
....

#3: XXX Traffic, N### on base full stop runway 32 XXX Traffic

#3: XXX Traffic, N### turning final runway 32 full stop XXX Traffic

.....
Sorry to derail the train, but you illustrated something that is like the classic 'fingernails on the chalkboard' for me. It seems to be more and more popular for pilots to end their CTAF self-announce transmissions with the word "traffic".
Per the AIM, it isn't correct, and adds no value. For me, it's worse than the "any traffic in the area please advise" phraseology that gets maligned so often.
Thanks for enabling my rant
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