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  #31  
Old 12-07-2021, 05:28 PM
spatsch spatsch is offline
 
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[quote=wawrzynskivp;1573793]
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Originally Posted by spatsch View Post
Not quite true. If I am on a 20 mile final with intend to land and an entirely unrelated aircraft (e.g. a hot air balloon) is hanging out 18 miles from the airport on my path to the runway the ballon has to yield me. FAR 91.113(g) does not say that the airplane which is not on final has to be in the pattern of the airport in question.

Yes, that is the literal reading of it. I didn't write that only aircraft on base would be burdened.
Maybe silly is the wrong term. English is not my native language but you
don't find this rule dangerous/not well thought through/inconsistent?

How would the hot air balloon pilot even know that s/he has to yield in particular as s/he might not have a radio tuned to a frequency of an airport 18 miles away? S/he would assume that the airplane has to yield.

Oliver
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  #32  
Old 12-07-2021, 05:31 PM
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Mike S Mike S is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spatsch View Post
If I am on a 20 mile final with intend to land and an entirely unrelated aircraft (e.g. a hot air balloon) is hanging out 18 miles from the airport on my path to the runway the ballon has to yield me.
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Last edited by Mike S : 12-07-2021 at 05:34 PM.
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  #33  
Old 12-07-2021, 05:43 PM
wawrzynskivp wawrzynskivp is offline
 
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[quote=spatsch;1573794]
Quote:
Originally Posted by wawrzynskivp View Post

Maybe silly is the wrong term. English is not my native language but you
don't find this rule dangerous/not well thought through/inconsistent?

How would the hot air balloon pilot even know that s/he has to yield in particular as s/he might not have a radio tuned to a frequency of an airport 18 miles away? S/he would assume that the airplane has to yield.

Oliver

The rules have to be simple enough to know cold. For any simple rule we can devise complicated scenarios that test their integrity. While we can make a logical challenge it isn't a fair test of the rule.

So is there a scenario where a hot air balloon needed to get out of an airplane's path to land and how would they know without comm?

It isn't hard to imagine that if a hot air balloon was drifting into the path of an airplane close to the ground with its gear down, that the balloon would realize it isn't a converging situation and they need to do whatever possible to avoid.

18 miles from an airport? We can make that work, but it would be outside of what 'on final to land' means to most situations. If we must then how about a space shuttle? Do you think the balloon would get what's happening?

Let's turn it around: If an airplane is committed to landing don't you want the balloon to avoid it?

Last edited by wawrzynskivp : 12-07-2021 at 05:53 PM.
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  #34  
Old 12-07-2021, 05:51 PM
wawrzynskivp wawrzynskivp is offline
 
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Default Good one Mike!

Good one Mike!


Kinda hoping for this.
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  #35  
Old 12-07-2021, 06:19 PM
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Mike S Mike S is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wawrzynskivp View Post
Good one Mike!
Thanks.

While there is a good basis to the discussion, sometimes the effort to make a point gets kinda way out there.

20 miles out in this case
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  #36  
Old 12-08-2021, 12:51 AM
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rv8ch rv8ch is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wawrzynskivp View Post
...
It isn't hard to imagine that if a hot air balloon was drifting into the path of an airplane close to the ground with its gear down, that the balloon would realize it isn't a converging situation and they need to do whatever possible to avoid.

...
I have actually had this happen as we do get some balloon activity around here on those beautiful, quiet evenings in the summer. Balloon drifting across the final approach path at our small, untowered airport. The guy was on the radio apologizing profusely and asking me if I see him and to not hit him. I confirmed to him that I see him and I would do all I could to avoid a collision. He seemed to have felt terrible about it, and I found it delightful.
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  #37  
Old 12-08-2021, 06:24 AM
ravenstar ravenstar is offline
 
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Couldn't this really be summed up as vigilance, courtesy and communication? Watch out of other aircraft, fly courteously as to not create a hazard for others and communicate with other aircraft when there's a potential for conflict?

That seems to me to be the spirit of 91.113 which establishes responsibility and rules for resolving common conflicts. It doesn't (and perhaps can't) address every potential situation, but applying these principles would surely help alleviate those that aren't addressed.
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  #38  
Old 12-08-2021, 07:24 AM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
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[quote=spatsch;1573794]
Quote:
Originally Posted by wawrzynskivp View Post

Maybe silly is the wrong term. English is not my native language but you
don't find this rule dangerous/not well thought through/inconsistent?

How would the hot air balloon pilot even know that s/he has to yield in particular as s/he might not have a radio tuned to a frequency of an airport 18 miles away? S/he would assume that the airplane has to yield.

Oliver
I don't believe that any reasonable person, including the FAA or a judge, would accept the concept of a 20 mile final. If you are 20 miles from an airport, You are not in the pattern and you are NOT on a final approach. This seems pretty straight forward. Every rule or law requires some type of reasonable thought to exclude this type of thing and keep to the intent of the law. I would not want to be the lawyer trying to defend a guy saying he had a right of way 20 miles from the runway.

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  #39  
Old 12-08-2021, 08:08 AM
swjohnsey swjohnsey is online now
 
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The stuff in FAR/AIM amounts to little more than suggestions as there is little/no enforcement. Bottom line, if you run into someone or they run into you, you will likely die. A couple of years later NTSB will rule that you had the right of way.
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  #40  
Old 12-08-2021, 08:25 AM
spatsch spatsch is offline
 
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[quote=lr172;1573901]
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Originally Posted by spatsch View Post

I don't believe that any reasonable person, including the FAA or a judge, would accept the concept of a 20 mile final. If you are 20 miles from an airport, You are not in the pattern and you are NOT on a final approach. This seems pretty straight forward. Every rule or law requires some type of reasonable thought to exclude this type of thing and keep to the intent of the law. I would not want to be the lawyer trying to defend a guy saying he had a right of way 20 miles from the runway.

Larry
The 20 mile number was obviously picked to illustrate a point but following your logic when will I be on final approach? 5 miles, 2 miles, 1 mile, 2000 feet, airport boundary?

That seems to where the ambiguity is originating from. As I agree that it would be difficult to argue for 20miles people seem to have different opinions on what is reasonable.

Oliver
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