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critique panel layout

Desert Rat

Well Known Member
well, it's that time. Thanks to a very understanding wife, all the magic boxes have been stacked up in the corner of the bedroom for a while and it's time to start thinking about panel layout.

Feel free to check out and critique my first attempt at some sort of logical layout.
 

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I think it looks great. The only suggestion I would make is to swap the audio panel and autopilot. I would want the autopilot closer to the engine controls, flap switch, etc.
 
Thanks for the feedback- You may be right, but I forgot to mention it's a slider so theres a rib smack in the middle behind the top of the panel. I put the A/P controller up top because it's much shallow than the other boxes which hopefully will minimize hacking up the sub-structure.

I suppose I could move it to the bottom and move the whole center stack down. I'll mull it over
 
Respectfully disagree

Been flying a long, long time in many different types.
IMHO, your placement of the AP controller is very good. Eyes up from your scan, visible when looking out and easily accessible with virtually no distractions.
All of the modern cockpit layouts currently favor that exact location for AP heads.
Boeing, Scarebus, Gulfstream, Pilatus to name a few.
Eyes out as much as possible and placing the control head bottom center does not allow that.
Of course, it’s your plane so make it the way YOU like it.
 
+1 on location of the autopilot control panel. What are you doing for a second radio? (assume the gps navigator will have a radio built in) What controls will you have on the control stick? Are you planning on having any separate lamps for aux fuel pump, master caution warning and autopilot servo power indicator? If so they need real estate center top of the panel. Do you have enough circuit breakers?
Other circuits - aux power outlets ( USB, 12 volt) cabin lights, cargo area lights, relay power (if stick switches for flaps,aux fuel pump and autopilot power), defrost fan CB and switch, switch for alternator field and CB, switch for essential bus and CB. I added a couple of dual color LED indicator lamps for the P Mags (I have dual P Mags). I drew out all the wiring diagrams and defined the location of all the components before finalizing the wiring bundle layout and routing and disconnect internal connectors and then finalized the panel layout. I put 4 of the Vans inspection panels across the skin in front of the canopy to help in accessibility for the avionics and wiring troubleshooting. Its real easy to run out of space for the wire bundles.

KT
 
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Switch guard

I'd suggest a switch guard on the avionics switch. That's something you don't want to turn off by accident.

I like a key switch. OK, someone can hotwire the plane in short order, but it does slow them down a bit.

I like the Cessna split Alt/Batt switch. Lots of them on eBay for under $40. The used one in my plane has been totally trouble free. The switch has mechanical interlocking so that the Alt can't be powered up w/o the Batt on. And most any A&P probably has one in a bin should it ever give an issue.

You might put in a hole (and wire) for a beacon switch even if you have no imm. plans to put in a beacon --- see the extensive discussion in another thread.

I might put the TOGA switch above the throttle. It looks a bit buried between the alt air and throttle.

I'd use locking toggles for the mags if you don't go the keyswitch route. Locking toggles require you to pull the handle slightly to move them on or off. Prevents accidental bumping of the mag switches.
 
For as little as you use Alt. Air, I would move it to the R/H side of the quadrant.
 
Been flying a long, long time in many different types.
IMHO, your placement of the AP controller is very good. Eyes up from your scan, visible when looking out and easily accessible with virtually no distractions.
All of the modern cockpit layouts currently favor that exact location for AP heads.
Boeing, Scarebus, Gulfstream, Pilatus to name a few.
Eyes out as much as possible and placing the control head bottom center does not allow that.
Of course, it’s your plane so make it the way YOU like it.

True but most of these types have Auto-throttle. If your hand is going to be on the throttle all the time then A/P controls nearby make sense.

However in an RV it’s 50/50 in my view. Substructure limitations in a slider may be the deciding factor.
 
Terry,

You could combine the battery alt into one 3 position switch. Also I have a stick start switch which I’m assuming you do too. Someone here suggested to use the batt position for enabling the stick start so you don’t need a separate switch for that. That is what I decided to do.
 
Feel free to check out and critique my first attempt at some sort of logical layout.

Are you far enough into the process to have a wiring diagram that shows circuit protection? The part count of circuit breakers required for a system like this was eye opening for me.

(Are the toggle switches along the bottom row actually Tyco switchable breakers? 'cos that'd help a lot)

- mark
 
These are just my opinions of course.

  • Battery/Alt switch can be one locking toggle switch (talk to Steinair)
  • Move the Bat/Alt down were the avionics switch is, move the avionics switch where the pitot heat switch is and move the pitot heat to the right of the lighting switches. This way you have all your electrical switches together and easy to find when stressed..smoke /fire :eek:
  • Guards around the ignition switches or use locking switches.
  • Move the dimmers down below the 2nd G3x and get rid of the panel/cabin light switches.
  • Move the alternate air knob out of the way to the far left (your almost never use it.
  • Not sure what the square is above the PFD but if its a warning light...ditch it, the G3X has all that.
  • Headset jacks, ditch standard jacks and use LEMO jacks. (you can buy an adapter for standard jacks if needed)
  • Remote start??? Like start it up and have coffee remote :confused:

OK, I made your panel look like mine...but you asked ;)

Conception to reality...
 

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I think it looks great. The only suggestion I would make is to swap the audio panel and autopilot. I would want the autopilot closer to the engine controls, flap switch, etc.

I respectfully disagree, I like the autopilot control at the top. It allows me to place my hand on the glare shield and actuate the pitch/VS wheel with my thumb. That’s where is is on other planes like the Piaggio and every jet I have flown. Looks good!
 
add 2 push buttons

I would add a Push to talk switch on the panel. That way when Otto is flying the plane, you do not need to touch the stick. (it is allso a back up PTT switch)
If you have 2 coms (like one remote and one panel mounted) then add a second PTT on the co pilot side. That way, the pilot and co pilot can split the comms and talk to different people. (like pilot on ATC and co pilot with FBO arranging fuel, rental car, etc) JMHO

I put the trim breaker near the pilot, so if the trim runs away, i can be holding the stick with one hand while I pull the breaker with the other.
 
OK, I made your panel look like mine...but you asked ;)

Conception to reality...

Nice set up Michael. That is a fantastic layout. Well thought out with the components exactly where they need to be. Second 7" GDU on the right is a nice touch for the co-pilot but really the only thing I might consider optional. Also, you left plenty of space in the center stack for a future upgrade like a GTN 750xi or the like. Great.
 
I agree with the AP panel being lower. On my RV, I have the Dynon system and the "knob panel" that has the Altitude, Heading, and Baro are mounted below the throttle. Two of these three knobs are adjusted the most in my flights and I can adjust these with my hand comfortably resting on my knee.

Would not do it any other way.
 

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Clearance Delivery

What is the Clear/Delete function? It looks like both Terry and Michael have one. Did I miss something?

On mine, it stands for clearance delivery. When on , it bypasses the master and turns on the PFD, Comm and the GNX375. This allows me to upload flight plans, listen to AWOs or receive IFR clearance delivery’s without having all the rest of the electrical stuff on drawing down the battery.
 
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Thanks for explaining the clearance delivery toggle, had me scratching my head.

Nice looking panel, I'd suggest a few small changes in location of a few items. The items that you need to be able to find without looking should be close to controls that you would use at the same time. For example, boost pump and flaps above the throttle would make it easy to use while your hand is on the throttle as it would be during an approach.

You might want to imagine what your hand is doing when you press the toga button. I have mine just above the throttle so I can press it simultaneous with pushing in the throttle. That's another argument for having the flap switch in reach of a finger when your hand is on the throttle.

Another reason for precise, logical switch placement is night operations when you can't read panel labels. The more logical the layout, the easier it is to memorize the switch locations so you can operate them with your eyes closed - or looking where they need to be looking.
 
I would add a Trig TY91 radio as it can be controlled from the G3X. If only one nav/com/gps is installed is an audio panel required?
My preference is not to use an alternator switch - use a double pole battery switch - or an avionics switch, it is a single point failure and isn't required.
I have put fuel pump, flaps, landing light/taxi light (are 2 switches required?) close to the throttle so they can be easily used in the pattern without moving your hand very far.
I also find it easy to kick any switch within (about) 10" laterally of the stick, so I would suggest moving all switches to the edges or centre of the panel. Nav and strobe are likely to be used only once per flight, and usually when the aircraft is stationary. Where as lading/taxi (wag) switches are used more often so switches should be in 2 pairs and separated.
I would install an autopilot switch to kill power to the servo if the AP ever has a brain fart. I would also install a trim power switch in case a servo ever refused to stop. Some use the breaker, if you do that use a coloured collar to make them easy to find quickly.
Agree that guards (perihelion design) beside the mag switches make sense, I don't much care for gated switches as I find them nasty to use.
Alt static switch? I used a plug that pulled out from a push in fitting under the panel.
 
Thanks for all the feedback guys!

As I said, this is only a first swag, so all comments are welcome, but just to clear up a couple of things; The Mag switches are locking 3 position toggles that do double duty with momentary test function for the P-mags

Comm 2 is remote. and you're right, I need a PTT on the panel

Haven't done a parts count for breakers yet, but I've got room for more on the right side if need be.

Remote start is a guarded arming switch for a start button on the stick wired parallel to the panel switch. It's a taildragger with an IO390 and I want to be able to firmly have that stick planted in my gut while doing the 3 handed fuel injected hot start.

clr/del= clearance delivery. I've flown this setup on bigger airplanes and it's unbelievably convenient to be able to get a comm and PFD on without having to power up the whole shebang.
 
True but most of these types have Auto-throttle. If your hand is going to be on the throttle all the time then A/P controls nearby make sense.

Well, a LOT of pilots still can fly without using the autothrottles:)
That still doesn’t make putting the AP head low a better choice.
Show me a pilot that is looking down at the throttle, mixture or prop controls and I’ll show you one nobody wants to be near in the sky.
If it’s low you still have to look inside more to use it.
 
These are just my opinions of course.

  • Battery/Alt switch can be one locking toggle switch (talk to Steinair)
  • Move the Bat/Alt down were the avionics switch is, move the avionics switch where the pitot heat switch is and move the pitot heat to the right of the lighting switches. This way you have all your electrical switches together and easy to find when stressed..smoke /fire :eek:
  • Guards around the ignition switches or use locking switches.
  • Move the dimmers down below the 2nd G3x and get rid of the panel/cabin light switches.
  • Move the alternate air knob out of the way to the far left (your almost never use it.
  • Not sure what the square is above the PFD but if its a warning light...ditch it, the G3X has all that.
  • Headset jacks, ditch standard jacks and use LEMO jacks. (you can buy an adapter for standard jacks if needed)
  • Remote start??? Like start it up and have coffee remote :confused:

OK, I made your panel look like mine...but you asked ;)

Conception to reality...

Hey Michael, That is a really good looking panel- Is it standard height? and if so are those 10" displays? I ask because I didn't think I'd have that much room below the displays on my panel. If I do, that's a happy surprise.
 
I would separate the flap and fuel pump switches so as not to confuse the two.
Move the fuel pump switch over to above the mixture, which also links the two logically. The flap is good where it is, mine is similar so I can thumb it while manipulating the throttle.
 
Flaps typically go to the right of the knobs
Autopilot belongs on top
Get a flap shaped flap knob. Flaps and fuel pump are typically used at nearly the same time. My RV-8 had flaps and fuel pump next to each other, and it was nice.
Clearance Delivery is also nice for doing database updates, which can take a while
Functions need to earn their way onto the stick - things that are needed often, or in a hurry qualify.
 
I would consider moving your Alt Air to the far right since it will be rarely used. Consider moving your TOGA up on the panel (same area) since it looks to be in a place it can be accidentally bumped when using your throttle. Good location for GPS and A/P since you will be using it like a FMS.
 
Hey Michael, That is a really good looking panel- Is it standard height? and if so are those 10" displays? I ask because I didn't think I'd have that much room below the displays on my panel. If I do, that's a happy surprise.

No it’s slightly deeper than standard. Steinair cut it for me. One 10.5” and two 7” displays.
 
Nice Panel! I would just suggest to place the switches for boost pump and flaps farther away from eachother.
 
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The nav and strobe switches can be combined as can the taxi/land switches. That's all I came up with - nice panel.

Dave
 
The nav and strobe switches can be combined…

Dave

I disagree. There will be times, at night, when strobes blind other pilots when on the ground. Common sense, as well as the FARs, allow you to turn them off in such cases. The nav lights, though, have to stay on.
 
I disagree. There will be times, at night, when strobes blind other pilots when on the ground. Common sense, as well as the FARs, allow you to turn them off in such cases. The nav lights, though, have to stay on.

I think he means combining them onto a 3 position switch.. Off, Nav, Nav & strobes. Same with the taxi and taxi/landing lights
 
Terry, I have almost the same setup, you will have to notch out all three ribs. Stein made my panel 5/8" deeper/longer for the switches to fit.

John A
 

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During the day I always run strobes on, but usually nav off.

I think this is a bit like daylight running lights in cars.
Now that LED tech is mainstream and reliable, there’s no real downside to having nav lights on 24/7 that I can think of.
Mine do Off/Nav/Nav+Strobe.

One thing I haven’t noticed anyone mention is the rows of toggles along the bottom of the panel. Two issues with that from my POV.

Firstly, I can guarantee that in decent chop or in and out of cloud you will one day hit those toggles while messing with the touch screen. I’ve done it on my RV7. There are no switches below my touch screens on my RV10.

Second, putting high touch switches like the fuel pump or pitot heat next to the Autopilot disable is asking for trouble. (I’ve even seen the fuel pump in between the avionics master and the autopilot disable. Those odds aren’t great for quick fingers :eek:)
Into clouds. Turn off pitot heat…oops.
FAF checks fuel pump on.. oops.

You really should be able to feel or know instinctively which switch you are hitting without having to look down and verify you aren’t shutting everything down inadvertently. Especially if you plan to fly IFR.
 
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These are all great comments guys, I'm taking them all in.

Bohica- I'm currently flying ESP on the G1000. On that platform I can go into the aux page and turn it off pretty quickly. It's not exactly convenient, but certainly not enough of a hassle to warrant another switch cluttering things up. Is it different on the G3x?

Richard Connell- I'm not crazy about the toggle placement either, but I was thinking more along the lines of hitting them with my knees or feet getting in and out. I didn't really think about hitting them in turbulence, so thanks for thinking of that.

Thats where everybody seems to put them. It's not like it's a big panel to start with and I'm taking up most of it with these big screens. If you have a better suggestion, I'd love to hear it!
 
These are all great comments guys, I'm taking them all in.

Bohica- I'm currently flying ESP on the G1000. On that platform I can go into the aux page and turn it off pretty quickly. It's not exactly convenient, but certainly not enough of a hassle to warrant another switch cluttering things up. Is it different on the G3x?

Richard Connell- I'm not crazy about the toggle placement either, but I was thinking more along the lines of hitting them with my knees or feet getting in and out. I didn't really think about hitting them in turbulence, so thanks for thinking of that.

Thats where everybody seems to put them. It's not like it's a big panel to start with and I'm taking up most of it with these big screens. If you have a better suggestion, I'd love to hear it!

I never found the switches there an issue for getting in and out so I wouldn’t worry about that.
Non critical things like lights aren’t a big issue either. I just wouldn’t put any kind of kill switch or avionics master anywhere where your hands may be trying to do something else.

On a 7 with push pulls I like the ignitions etc off to the left. The fuel pump and flaps near the throttles so you can use them while you have a hand on the throttle.
Lights and anything else in the bottom of the radio stack. Dimmers or any other rarely used switches on the copilot side.

I strongly encourage people to think about how they interact with the panel on any given flight.
When in doubt have a look at how transport aircraft panels and new light aircraft like Pilatus/TBM/diamond/cirrus do things.
 
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2 pennies

I’d switch Landing and Taxi lights. I turn on Boost Pump and landing light in the pattern. I have my switches sorted by functionality when I’m flyin.
 
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