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Time and Cost?RV14 vs RV10

Everwild

Well Known Member
Hi Everyone. I've been lurking for some time and wanted to tap your collective insight. Mostly related to time and cost to build and how many would do it again or just buy something and enjoy it.

My mission is mostly personal travel with my wife, running kids back and forth to college, or taking trips with other couples. I want IFR capability. I've narrowed my choices down to the following:

Option 1. RV14?Great travel machine for two with speed, decent useful load and range. Lowest estimated build time and lower cost to build than option 2.

Option 2. RV10?Great travel machine, four seats, with more hauling capability. Negatives are higher build cost, additional time to build and higher ongoing operating costs (fuel, insurance, and eventually overhaul costs). Leaning this way at the moment because of the extra capability and relatively low incremental cost over the RV14.

Option 3. Find a clean Mooney, Cirrus or similar. Cons are higher purchase price to get a similarly equipped, clean aircraft comparable to an RV10, higher annual and maintenance costs, ongoing upgrade envy. etc.

So my questions are?.

An RV14 with bells and whistles like G3X suite, new engine, new prop, paint, interior, misc upgrades etc runs roughly $140-160k and takes 1500-2000 hours to build? Are these reasonable assumptions?

The cost of a RV10 with comparable options is roughly $30-40k more. $170-190k due to the additional cost of the IO-540, cost of the kit, more interior options, wiring, etc, I?m also hearing roughly 3000 hours to build a nice example.
Are these reasonable assumptions?

Are the opportunity costs of spending 3000 hours building a plane too high? Time away from family, time spent away from more lucrative activities? What?s your experience?

Finally, one of the selling points for building is doing your own maintenance. How many of you actually do your own annual and maintenance each year? While I consider myself handy, I?m sure I would want an experienced A & P at least check my work. Are you really saving that much on maintenance and annuals by building vs buying?
 
I can't answer the question about cost and time (3000 hours seems high).

As for maintenance, by the time you are finished, you will have the skills to perform your annual condition inspection and will want to do it.

My -9 is coming up on a thousand hours and the most expensive Condition Inspection I have had was ~$2500. What drove that up was finding a small crack in the engine mount, which required removing the engine, gearlegs, and the engine mount. I then had to replace the engine mount. Had this been a certified aircraft and the work performed by a local shop, that price would have tripled, or more.

A more typical Condition Inspection usually would run me about $150 on the high side, for oil, filters, sparkplugs, lubricants, etc.
 
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-10

I can tell you I have north of 170 in my ten and almost 2500 hours of actual build time ...and I am not flying yet...
 
about right

I think your 3000 hours is in the ballpark for a slow build kit. Some people are fast workers in the shop, and some (me) spend a lot of time scratching our heads....so there is a lot of variation. And there is even more variation in cost. The numbers I see thrown around here on VAF are often much more than I spent, but I built a simple straightforward airplane. You certainly can spend as much as you please.
As for opportunity costs, you do need to dedicate yourself to this project in order to finish in a timely way, but I really don't view it as lost opportunities. I was able to dovetail this with family and job, and I absolutely loved the build. Those hours in the shop were very satisfying and time very well spent. In line with my enjoying the build, I really appreciate the opportunity to do owner maintenance too, and can't see myself ever going back to the certified world where I have to pay someone to have the fun for me. But, again, these are personal issues and everyone needs to do their own evaluation.

Welcome to experimental aviation!

 
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Low side

As a first-time builder my experience suggests your estimates are on the low side. And I have easily 175K in my RV-14 without a lot of popular upgrades like t-bolt engines, berringer wheels and brakes, Vetterman four into two exhaust... I know there are people who complete their first build faster than I did, but... best to not rush it. As for condition inspections, yes, you?ll be well-qualified and enjoy the process. I do have an IFR G3X touch panel.
 
I had a QB fuse on the RV-10 and with that, I was at 1700 hours to fly it. 2000 after finishing the small things like wheel fairings. 3000 is probably overkill *if* you work efficiently and set your mind to it. The RV-14 took me about the same amount of time as the RV-10, except without having any QB parts. So I'd say the RV-10 may have ended up at about 2500 at most if I'd have gone slow build.
On most sections, the RV-14 isn't really all that shorter a build time. Just some additional canopy work. It's not a huge difference, really.
 
14 vs 7 in price

Why is the 14 so much more expensive to build than the 7? Kit prices are 10k different, the engine probably about 10k more also (I haven't priced the engine).. why would the 14 be so expensive?
 
I don't have any first-hand knowledge into the pricing structure at Van's, but:

The RV-7 is many years older than the RV-14. It's smaller, and the kit components are less advanced. There are probably more parts on the RV-7 than the RV-14 that you are only given raw materials for, whereas the RV-14 has more of the work done for you. That would mean that there is more factory tooling required for the -14 that they have to recover costs for, and more parts that take effort on their behalf to build. Even the wings are bigger on the RV-14 so the material itself will be slightly larger. While they look very similar from the outside, when you're seated in them, you start to see and feel some of the real differences.

That's all just a guess, and there may be additional factors as well.
 
Cost

Tim, I think you may have misunderstood taltruda?s question. He wasn?t asking why Van charges more for the -14 kit, but why is the finished product so much more expensive than building a -7.

I am also curious to know why it?s so much more, other than the obvious increase cost of engine and kit.
 
I am also curious to know why it?s so much more, other than the obvious increase cost of engine and kit.

More panel space to put avionics?
I'm sure you could build an RV-10 or -14 with a spartan minimal steam gauge panel, but when you build your dream airplane, that all goes out the window pretty quick when the latest shiny new glass panel comes along.
 
Paint

And after investing so much in the airframe, engine and avionics, why would you try to paint it yourself for $2,000-$3,000? A nice professional job may cost $15,000-$20,000 and is the first thing most people will notice.
 
And after investing so much in the airframe, engine and avionics, why would you try to paint it yourself for $2,000-$3,000? A nice professional job may cost $15,000-$20,000 and is the first thing most people will notice.

Because I didn?t build the airplane to impress anyone with how it looks. I?m impressed with how fast it goes and how much it can carry, and that?s the only opinion that matters to me.
 
First, the answer to the market price difference is simple: Supply vs demand. Simple rule of economy. For many people the -14 is a superior plane to the -7. I know I was just barely able to talk myself into a -7 vs a -9 when I was shopping, for the purposes I wanted it for. Then the -14 came along and was designed EXACTLY they way I wanted to solve my mission profile. It then became the only good choice. And with it being a superior plane, many -9 and -7 owners (no, not all) look at the -14 with a little envy at times for some of those features. Some even went as far as to start building a -14. So along with the sheer fleet volume differences, there are many times more available -7?s on the market and it?s almost impossible to find a -14 because people are building them to keep for the most part. 10-15 years from now they will be a little closer in price perhaps, but the -6 will usually be older than the -7 and the -7 older than the -14 in many cases so there will always be a variety of differences that separate the models in price.

Regarding the paint, I painted my own and I know very well that my job isn?t professional, but I think 95% of buyers would be ok with it and I only paid about $4k. I for one would never consider paying someone $10k+ for a paint job. It?s much too fun and easy to do and the cost is all just throwaway money if you intend to keep the plane for many years. You gotta save money somewhere to own a plane if you?re not filthy rich, and that was one place I could save a bundle.
 
Everwild,
To answer your question, in my opinion, your cost and time estimates are pretty accurate, with obvious variations due to installed equipment choices. Looks like you?ve done your homework. As far as the question ?how many builders do their own condition inspections and maintenance?... of the RV builders I know, and I know many, virtually 100% of them do their own maintenance. When I do my condition inspections, I have a couple of my experienced RV builder buddies look things over, primarily firewall forward, to make sure I didn?t miss something. Most, if not all of us, have a detailed condition inspection checklist that we follow.

As far as buying vs building, if your primary goal is to have an airplane to fly, then buy a flying airplane that meets your needs. If your only reason for building an airplane is because you think it will save you some money, I think you would end up being disappointed. The people that really don?t enjoy the building experience, at least a little, are the reason that a fairly sizable percentage of kit starts never get finished.

This is of course my opinion, based on building and modifying several RV?s, and I really enjoy building and working on these wonderful airplanes. There are great used airplanes, including RV?s out there for sale and many are bargains.
 
10 or 14 Choice

I agree with the last post. costs to build either is close but hours to build is much different. Doing the top ,doors and windows on the RV10 is very time consuming otherwise building a 10 or 14 airframe are really close. The 14 is basically a 2 seat 10. Wings and controls are the same as is allot of the cockpit construction and as is said in this thread you can put tons of $$$$$$$$ in Extras, interiors,paint & Avionics. Either way these are two wonderful RVs, fast and roomy. If I could afford it I'd have one of each!!!
 
... running kids back and forth to college, or taking trips with other couples.

...Find a clean Mooney, Cirrus or similar.

So my questions are?.

An RV14 uns roughly $140-160k ...The cost of a RV10 ...$170-190k ...
Are these reasonable assumptions?

Are you really saving that much on maintenance and annuals by building vs buying?

First to answer the questions you did ask...
1) If you want to fly with other "couples", an RV10 is your only viable choice from Vans.
2) Are your estimated costs reasonable? Maybe for some, certainly NOT for me. First, I count EVERY penny I spend down to every sheet of sandpaper, nut bolt or washer (I'm not sure everyone truly counts every penny when they tell you what thiers cost). I am building the plane of my dreams (RV-10) and it'll cost me in the neighborhood of $260k when done. Granted, I'm going high end paint, interior and avionics with most of the common deviations from plans (which all cost time and money). If you go with used engine, paint it yourself and don't deviate from the basic plans, you MIGHT be able to build it in your price range.

Now for the question you didn't ask....

The best advice I've ever read regarding your decision is this... "If you want to build a plane because you want the experience of building a plane, then do it. If you're building a plane because you want a plane to fly, then buy it."

In my opinion, a person should build a plane IF they love "the process" of building. At about 80% completion, I am LOVING my RV-10 project and wouldn't take anything for the experience. But I will tell you, it'd be hard to complete if my only motivation was needing a plane to fly. It's a LOT of work that can get downright monotonous at times. (i.e., sanding fiberglass)

So, if your goal to to fly missions with your kids, wife and other couples, I'd buy an already built Van's or a Mooney. (I currently fly a Mooney M20J and think it's one of the best values for the money.)

If you love building things and want the satisfaction that comes with building something yourself, then you should build a Van's RV-10. I would suggest you don't make the decision based on money (cost to build, maintain, etc...) Money is a poor motivator. Base it on what you love to do and want to do, build or fly.
 
Do the Math

Tb * Vm * Vrv
----------------- = D
Vrv - Vm

Tb = time to build
Vm = speed of the Mooney
Vrv = speed of the RV
D = distance traveled by both the Mooney or the RV such that the total time spent traveling and building is the same.

It doesn't consider the fun (if you enjoy it) of building or the satisfaction of having something you built yourself.

Here's a quick example. The RV-3B I'm building will cruise at about 196 mph. I already have over 4,000 hours in the project so I'll use that number (I'm slow). My Cessna 180 at the same percent power will cruise 160 mph. I'd have to fly either airplane over 3.48 million miles to recover the time I spent building. That's well over 17,000 hours in the RV-3B or more in the C180.

Bottom line, it's hard to justify on the basis of speed. The opportunity cost of the time to build is too high. In my case, I'm building it for the fun of it.

Dave
 
Time vs Money

With moving kids around and flying friends you will want a 10.
Went to a forum at Oshkosh a few years back with a title something like, "So your want to build a plane".
It was put on by Vans! They were very honest, the gist was that if you want to build a plane you will have to give up something important in your life. Maybe golf, vacations, even flying. Wonder if there's any numbers on partial kits that change hands or are collecting dust in the barn. Myself, I'm the second owner in an RV-9A.

Not many people have a spare 20 hours in every week. If indeed you did faithfully work at the plane 20 hrs/week, had no redo's, no wait's for parts, no setback of any sort, were experienced with tools, materials, electronics, you might be done in three years.

There is another option, you can build your plane in a builder assist program in which you trade money for time while also learning the ins and outs of your plane.
I'm familiar with the program at Saint Aviation run by Jesse Saint, check out https://www.saintaviation.com/newrv.html. The cost is roughly 250k and includes panel/paint etc.

That's somewhat more than the numbers mentioned above but you have to figure the value of 3000 hours of your life. You might give Jesse a call for details or even plan a visit. At the moment there are two 10's in his shop, one getting finished up by the owner in the builder assist program, in the other case the first owner gave up and sold the partially done kit, the new owner is finishing it with Jesse.

The 10 is nearly as capable as a Cirrus or Bonanza and even with the builder assist only 1/3 the cost!

Carl
 
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Tim, I think you may have misunderstood taltruda’s question. He wasn’t asking why Van charges more for the -14 kit, but why is the finished product so much more expensive than building a -7.

I am also curious to know why it’s so much more, other than the obvious increase cost of engine and kit.
The kit cost difference is not as great as it may seem since many of the parts are in the kit whereas with the 7, one need to buy some of those parts separately.
But it is a bigger plane, and more aluminum, so it is a bit higher if we compare it apple to apple.

Plus 1 for Randy's comment. Agree 100% with his comment/view
 
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Your option 3 does not do justice to the full difference in cost between the options.

A long review of {Classified} listings was the final straw for me in starting an RV-10 QB. 6-9 year old Cirruses (Cirri?) equipped as I would want them would still cost $450,000 to $650,000, depending on equipment.

And, that, say, $550,000 plane has an engine that is already halfway to TBO.

And, that $550,000 will cost me thousands a year in A/P inspections and other work.

And I can't change or upgrade pretty much anything as the world changes, without major costs.

Compare that to my current estimate (build underway) for an RV-10 equipped with a parachute and full glass panel of $225,000. With generally free annual inspections and other work for at least the first few years, and low cost changes and upgrades.

For me, as much as I want a plane that I can FLY NOW with my family, all these budget pros and cons added up to a very clear decision to build my own versus buy used.
 
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Thanks so much for the responses! Very insightful.

Here are MY rough estimates for a 10.

Slow Kit $49,710
Engine $47,839 (new)
Prop $8,790 (new)
Avionics $44,664 (Rough G3X budget)
Interior $10,000
Paint $18,000 (Capable of doing myself but..)
Misc $15,000 (Might be low after researching all of the aftermarket options)
Tools $3,500
Total $197,503 (+taxes arrrgg)

An RV14 has a slightly lower cost. Lower priced kit and engine and probably less interior finish stuff, as a general understanding.

While I wish money where no object, it's always a consideration when planning out ones life. Especially with 3 kids who are in, or going to be in college sometime over the next 7 years. So it's a balance of enjoying the build, time, money, capability, convenience and safety.

I love the RV14 and it would cost the least at the end of the day, but for me, it would be a selfish investment and in the grand scheme is not much less than a 10. I want to bring family and friends along to enjoy the experience. The idea is to build while my kids are in college, sell a business when they are out of the house, and enjoy the travel after a slightly early retirement.

But, like most, I have other things I would like to spend money on too. Like saving enough to retire a little early. Maybe a second home down south so we can spend summers in Michigan and winters on the beach. Another reason / justification for the plane :)

While I'm not obsessed with money, I have a cash flow statement that outlines my estimated inflow and outflow for the next 30 years, and how a plane fits into that personal financial picture. This is where variable and fixed annual operating costs get added. Maybe overkill but... This was a good exercise to get my better half into the mindset that we CAN afford to do this and meet our other life goals. She's pretty tight with money which I appreciate. I'm the one in the relationship who likes shiny things.

So the decision is not driven entirely by money but absolutely takes money into consideration as we sort out the big picture stuff in our lives.

I know I would absolutely enjoy the build process, but do worry about taking time away from family, or possibly focus away from my business.

Choices, choices.
 
It sounds like you plan to travel with it after retirement... I'll tell you what. The RV-10 makes an EXCELLENT 2 person travel plane. Sure, the RV-14 isn't bad to travel with, but, an RV-10 with only the front seats filled is still by far the best way to get across the country. The seats recline, the canopy is a built-in sun shield, the speed is as good or better in the -10, the spaciousness is far superior, and you can bring all the luggage you want, or even add a friend or two some times. The fuel economy alone is really no reason to justify an RV-14 either. The RV-10 can get pretty close to the IO-390 in the RV-14 when you get it leaned out, and the engine is smoother since it's a 6 cylinder.

Hands down, if I ever part with one of the planes, I'll be keeping the RV-10.
 
RV-10 IO-540 = 4 seat no aerobatics gull wing doors trike only
RV-14 IO-360 = 2 seat yes aerobatics tip up canopy tail dragger available
RV-10 > RV-14 in cost to build and operate.

Really two different planes both awsome.
 
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Oregon has no sales tax.

If you order all the kit parts, engine, prop, etc through them, a little savings there.

Pretty sure any state we live in that taxes on personal property will come after us for use tax for big ticket items like that. Maybe not for smaller stuff but when you're talking boats and planes, they want their $$$$$.
 
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I'm fully expecting to pay some annual registration-type tax like I pay for my car, but at least I'm not also paying 7% to 9% every time I order a part / kit section from Van's
 
Build time vs total spent

You don't mention if this is the first plane you've built. Because you mentioned time away from your family - the build time that most refer to is the time actually spent building.

You will likely spend that much time again reading plans, planning, sourcing parts, returning parts, searching the web for tips on your next steps, and on and on. When considering time away from your family this is just as important as build time.
 
I'm fully expecting to pay some annual registration-type tax like I pay for my car, but at least I'm not also paying 7% to 9% every time I order a part / kit section from Van's

In Georgia, you pay ad-valorem tax when you initially register the airplane. If you spent $100k building the airplane and you paid sales tax on $50k of that amount you built the airplane, you will owe ad-valrem tax on the remaining $50k with the exception that you won't owe ad-valorem tax on anything you purchased on the secondary market (e.g. a used engine you bought from a buddy).

It is probably worth checking into your state's laws to get a better understanding of how your tax laws work. The tax hit can be substantial, particularly at the end of the project when you've spent your entire budget, plus some, and are handed a bill for $X,xxx.
 
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On the Tax issue- I live in WA (30-40 min or so from Vans). I pick up most things, but I can guarantee when I go to license in WA they will charge me a one time Use tax of 8% on the airplane. May not be everything I have into it but I bet it'll be $8-10K. It's impossible to avoid too. I have a home in Oregon too, if I could license the plane out of that house I'd do that- but I don't think it's possible.

Alpine- unless you live in OR or NV you'd better check with your state.
 
I have a Mooney today, for the most part it does what I need it to do. What I realized is that 99% of the time I fly by myself and I really don't need 4 seats.
But what made me want to build was a disagreement with a mechanic I was using for annual. It took me three months to sort it out and find a new mechanic. In the meantime I was stuck with the plane in my hangar, out of annual, and needing to put it back together and get a ferry permit to a field with maintenance. I decided I didn't ever want to be in that position again, so I'd have to learn how to build my own plane and do my own maintenance.

The Mooney has been a great machine to build time with, but I wish I was able to just slap more advanced avionics in there. To me it's not worth putting $100k to get advanced avionics into a 50 year old airframe, when for ~$30k I can slap them into a brand new airframe, get the opportunity to learn how to do it myself and never be held hostage by a mechanic again.
 
Recently sold RV10

So I had a VERY nice RV 10..and I recently sold it...ONLY because I bought another plane. And the ONLY reason I sold the 10..was not b/c of finances, I could afford them both, but b/c if I didnt sell the 10..I would never fly the more expensive retractable TP that I recently upgraded, and bought. The RV10 is an awesome plane..fast, stable, has lots of room, jumps off the runway, sits up high, and looks so cool.

I live in WA, went to Vans to look at the 14...it is NOT a 2-seat RV 10. Not even close. It doesn't sit as high, doesn't have all the leg room that the 10 has, your missing the back seats, not nearly the headroom, and I dont care what the dimensions numbers say..the 10 just seems so much more spacious inside the cockpit.

Im NOT knocking the 14..its a great plane..but if you ever want to haul anything..the 10 has it beat!

Oh well, Ill just stick w my new turbine for speed, and fly my RV 8 when I want to have fun...well that is IF the PNW wx gets any better soon!
 
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