Garmin G3x Touch ADS-B "participation"?

I just installed the entire G3x Touch suite in my EAB Rv-12, including the GDL39R receiver and the GTX23ES extended squitter transponder. I was told that with this equipment onboard I would have full functionality for ADS-B services, including FIS-B and TIS-B (including TIS-R) for the airspace around my airplane in flight. However, I read the following in the Pilot's Guide:

"Currently, rule-compliant ADS-B Out capability in the United States requires a
TSO?ed SBAS-enabled GPS, such as a Garmin GPS 400W or similar"

Since I do not have a TSO'ed GPS source in the aircraft (only the GTR200 COM radio), I obviously am not "fully compliant" with the 2020 ADSB rule, as I was told I would be. More important today, though, is whether I will be fully "participating" in all services.

Dick,

There are some recent threads on this, and my take on it is the FAA is opening the door for experimental aircraft by saying our installations only have to meet the performance standards of the TSO as opposed to saying they must be TSO'd. I think it's the Fed's way of saving face for setting a requirement that couldn't be met by us experimental guys (again, my opinion).

Rich

Assuming your non-compliant G3x gps is feeding your transponder, you have full functionality. That is, you will get traffic and weather.
But you will be sending out a code bit that says you are non-compliant after 2020. The so-called new rule does not change this.

Currently the FAA is allowing your setup to wake up the ground stations and you will have full functionality. What you won't have is a 2020 compliant setup....

The change in the verbiage of the rules did not change this fact.

Who told you that you would be fully 2020 compliant?

Brian,

I use the TSO'd FreeFlight system which allows you to set the code for certification level.

When I saw the new verbiage on demonstrating the performance specifications of the TSO I wondered how that will be done for non TSO'd units. Sometimes it falls under the premis of " Don't ask the question if you aren't going to like the answer!"

Rich

My discussions

Dick,
There are a lot of G3X,s out there and a friend has your system in his RV7. He gets all the information reference traffic you wrote about, and he can identify his plane in the system so he's tagged when flying.
Several of the hangar flying sessions during this snowy time in Denver have been around having an ADSB compliant system. The Tso'd piece is still the issue with your system and my Skyview, but I am hopeful this last change to the ADSB requirement "sounds like" there may be a move to work with the non-certified community of extremely capable experimental aircraft.
I can hope at least things will come around so it won't be so costly to equip our planes to meet the 2020 standard with equipment that meets the Tso'd standard. IMHO

OK now I get it

Brian, i think i may have heard what i wanted to hear - dont think anyone was trying to deceive me...actually if I've achieved full functionality, which it appears that I have, I'm happy for now
And Patrick, I expect you're right; a low end, low cost solution for 2020 compliance is likely to appear
Thanks for the comments, everyone. And Oh, by the way, i got other, very helpful input separately from the Garmin G3xpert guys as well.

RV-12 S-LSA ADS-B 2020 non-compliance

Last July, I purchased an RV-12 S-LSA (dual-screen G3X Touch, ES transponder, and GDL39R) from Synergy Air. They confirmed prior to my order that the aircraft would be ADS-B 2020 compliant. I didn't question this at the time because Garmin advertised the G3X Touch (on the FlyRV-12 website) to have built-in WAAS GPS capability that integrates seamlessly with the ES transponder. I learned this past week (in response to a direct question to Synergy Air) that my aircraft is not ADS-B 2020 compliant as equipped, and I must purchase/install a GPS20A (or another equivalent box) for ADS-B 'out' capability.

My understanding is the GPS20A kit merely enables the ES transponder to meet ADS-B 'out' requirements. It seems the GPS20A is merely a GPS WAAS source for the transponder, and provides nothing of additional value to the G3X Touch navigation/practice VMC approach capabilities.

Does anyone have any additional information on RV-12 S-LSA ADS-B 2020 compliance? I feel pretty stupid for 'drinking the cool-aid' prior to purchase, and will pay for it when I have to purchase/install the GPS20A upgrade for my RV-12 S-LSA once Van's makes the upgrade kit available.

Many thanks.

-- Bill

Bill M. said:

My understanding is the GPS20A kit merely enables the ES transponder to meet ADS-B 'out' requirements. It seems the GPS20A is merely a GPS WAAS source for the transponder, and provides nothing of additional value to the G3X Touch navigation/practice VMC approach capabilities.

Does anyone have any additional information on RV-12 S-LSA ADS-B 2020 compliance?

Click to expand...

Bill, you are correct. The GPS 20A is a position source that meets the TSO performance requirements for a compliant ADS-B Out position source. In addition to connecting to the G3X CAN bus to provide GPS information, it has additional interfaces to provide GPS to other devices if needed (e.g. ELT). It also means your aircraft will be equipped with redundant GPS sources, the internal display GPS and the GPS 20A.

We have been shipping the GPS 20A since the fall 2015 and Van's is working on a package specifically for RV-12 customers. I'm sorry for the miscommunication. I've separately reached out to the team at Synergy to make sure they have the latest information and understand what is required for compliance. It was certainly not our intent to mislead anyone by stating that the GPS is WAAS capable. The internal display GPS does use WAAS but does not meet the TSO requirements.

Thanks,
Brian

It is my understanding the ES transponder without the GPS 20A will not be adequate to receive ground signal traffic as of Jan 4th. You have to have ADS D out functioning to receive ground signal. It appears to my the FAA has jumped the 2020 gun.

Rich is correct.

From the FAA;
"The ADS-B Out equipment installed in an aircraft must meet the performance requirements of the ADS-B TSOs. A TSO authorization, issued in accordance with 14 CFR 21 subpart O, is not required"

http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/faq/

My understanding is that the FAA is concerned with the ability if the GPS to check itself for errors in position. But there are much smarter people here that can tell us how to get to "TSO performance".

Brian, thank you for the clarification. I never thought for an instant that the G3Xperts were trying to mislead. In fact, my conversations with Steve, Tim, and now you have been most helpful and responsive to my questions about the G3X Touch system. Thank you!

The challenge for me is with Synergy definitively stating last April that my dual-screen G3X Touch, GTX 23 ES transponder, and GDL 39R provided 2020 compliant ADS-B in/out capability. When I saw the Garmin option page of the Fly RV-12 website that stated the G3X Touch system possesses a built-in WAAS GPS receiver, this information seemed to confirm Synergy’s claim and didn’t raise flags for me to question further. So, I could have pressed harder at the time. Perhaps, since my RV-12 S-LSA was one of the first with dual-screen Garmin avionics, there was confusion within Synergy about its 2020 ADS-B compliance. I certainly give them the benefit of the doubt.

Still, my challenge now is to comply with the 2020 ADS-B mandate. I’ll await Van’s release of the GPS 20A upgrade kit.

Thanks,
Bill