Buying used - Scary thoughts

As I'm actively looking for an RV-4 (or -8), and arranging Pre-Buys, I pay particular attention to the articles here that describe "interesting and exciting" discoveries people have made when looking over their newly bought, used, airplane.

Just this week we see this:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=122400

"a major malfunction on our right wing spar where it stabs into the fuse. It appears that during the original construction of the spar, someone took it upon their self to grind a piece off of two of the lower leaf sections that make up the lower portion of the spar thus compromising the critical bolt edge distance. We contacted Vans and they said plain and simply "not airworthy""


And a few weeks back, someone bought an RV-4 that had been sitting around for a a while. He decided to do a thourough breakdown and inspection of the airplane and saw this:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=120533&highlight=spar+edge+distance

I don't know about the former but the latter example could not be seen unless you removed the wings.

Scary things.

Build quality is a crucial issue of course. And we all know "caveat emptor".

But just how much can one inspect during a Pre-Buy to get a notion if the wings will stay on?

The above issues makes me think of only considering Quick Built airplanes. Even then there are no guarantees.

How do we minimize the risk?

Pre buy

Some spots can't be seen but a pre buy from a skilled RV experienced AP will expose a lot.
Personally, I would review the builder logs. I'm sure there are perfect builders and it would show in the final product, but for most of us, mistakes are inevitable. Finding them and reading how they were resolved will tell you a lot about the rest of the plane.

Used

Buying used is a big risk. Sometimes the logs aren't good enough. A pre-buy by some who know where to look can help reduce the risk but sometimes even they can miss stuff if it's hidden well. I bought a kit that had a hole buggered up on the spar that was hidden behind the head of a rivet. I found it after the going thought the wing replacing "backward" installed ribs (another story). Thankfully, working with Vans engineering folks I have been able to satisfactorly repair the issues but it's taken a lot of time.
Just remember one thing, a lot of folks will say "hey it's experimental, I can do what I want". Your job is to find out if the builder has this mentality. If so, tread lightly.

grubbat said:

Buying used is a big risk. Sometimes the logs aren't good enough. A pre-buy by some who know where to look can help reduce the risk but sometimes even they can miss stuff if it's hidden well. I bought a kit that had a hole buggered up on the spar that was hidden behind the head of a rivet. I found it after the going thought the wing replacing "backward" installed ribs (another story). Thankfully, working with Vans engineering folks I have been able to satisfactorly repair the issues but it's taken a lot of time.
Just remember one thing, a lot of folks will say "hey it's experimental, I can do what I want". Your job is to find out if the builder has this mentality. If so, tread lightly.

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Thanks.

I guess one way to discover that Mentality is if there ARE builder logs and if they've been kept meticulously

Something to think about! People are different, some will look at work that very nicely and others will see details and errors that make it not of interest to buy the project or plane..

Also keep in mind that people have different strengths. The structure may be a flawless work of art, but the wiring an absolute rats nest...

We tend to focus on primary structure, but thankfully really egregious mistakes are pretty rare. Fuel and electrical systems mistakes are far more common however. Poor systems installation can bring an airplane down just as quickly as a broken spar.

Toobuilder said:

Also keep in mind that people have different strengths. The structure may be a flawless work of art, but the wiring an absolute rats nest...

We tend to focus on primary structure, but thankfully really egregious mistakes are pretty rare. Fuel and electrical systems mistakes are far more common however. Poor systems installation can bring an airplane down just as quickly as a broken spar.

Click to expand...

Yes as you say a bad fuel system will bring a plane down. But at least you have a chance to glide in. And there's less (not zero - just less) hidden stuff with systems (plumbing, wiring, flight controls) and in the engine.

Saville said:

As I'm actively looking for an RV-4 (or -8), and arranging Pre-Buys, I pay particular attention to the articles here that describe "interesting and exciting" discoveries people have made when looking over their newly bought, used, airplane.

Just this week we see this:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=122400

"a major malfunction on our right wing spar where it stabs into the fuse. It appears that during the original construction of the spar, someone took it upon their self to grind a piece off of two of the lower leaf sections that make up the lower portion of the spar thus compromising the critical bolt edge distance. We contacted Vans and they said plain and simply "not airworthy""


And a few weeks back, someone bought an RV-4 that had been sitting around for a a while. He decided to do a thourough breakdown and inspection of the airplane and saw this:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=120533&highlight=spar+edge+distance

I don't know about the former but the latter example could not be seen unless you removed the wings.

Scary things.

Build quality is a crucial issue of course. And we all know "caveat emptor".

But just how much can one inspect during a Pre-Buy to get a notion if the wings will stay on?

The above issues makes me think of only considering Quick Built airplanes. Even then there are no guarantees.

How do we minimize the risk?

Click to expand...

Actually both of those issues could have been detected by someone experienced with the RV-4 during a very thorough prebuy inspection. Not necessarily in absolute detail, but they would be able to see that something is not right and recommend the buyer pass, or at least look even deeper.

rvbuilder2002 said:

Actually both of those issues could have been detected by someone experienced with the RV-4 during a very thorough prebuy inspection. Not necessarily in absolute detail, but they would be able to see that something is not right and recommend the buyer pass, or at least look even deeper.

Click to expand...

Interesting. In the thread I asked if the extra hole in the latter issue could be seen during a pre-Buy and the answer was no because the part with the extra hole slide in between two others - one fore and one aft.

Fifteen or so years ago as I was building my RV-6a and had some idea of how an aircraft should be built, a partner and I decided we should buy an RV so as to be able to fly while building. We looked at a number that were for sale. About a third were turned down for issues that made us wonder how they got approved in the first place. This went from crappy build quality to downright dangerous defects. My favorite was the one whose rudder hinge bolts had no nuts. I pointed this out to the owner and watched him apply the fix. Scary. We finally bought one out of FL we were very happy with, just a few minor issues.

I would advise OP to have an inspection party with as many local builders as possible and hope their findings and opinions don't vary that much. I believe an awful lot can be indicated by the overall build quality and attention to detail that should be apparent.

If you can find a really competent DAR like Gary Brown (on this forum) it could be more spendy, but hey it's only your life.

HTH, YMMV

...and that is all testimony to the fact that these planes are that forgiving and well designed!

Imagine how good a well built RV is!

CJ

How to know

Ask the builder how many rivets he drilled out. If the answer is none, run away.

Saville said:

Interesting. In the thread I asked if the extra hole in the latter issue could be seen during a pre-Buy and the answer was no because the part with the extra hole slide in between two others - one fore and one aft.

Click to expand...

True, but the extra hole is not the only problem.
Anyone looking close would have seen what looked suspiciously like a bolt position that did not meet minimum edge distance on all of the parts.

Not necessarily so. It may come as a surprise, but there is no requirement from the feds to even have log books at all, so of course there is no requirement what must go in them. Why post about some defect you don't want a buyer to see - or as I have seen, just tear that page out of the log book. This is true for certified planes as well as experimental. ALWAYS get the FAA files on the aircraft, often there are some real surprises there.

Saville said:

Thanks.

I guess one way to discover that Mentality is if there ARE builder logs and if they've been kept meticulously

Click to expand...

I looked at a ton of rv4's before I finally bought one. It was impossible to satisfy all of the things on my want list. I finally settled on one that I bought from the original builder. There were some things I didn't like about the plane, but at least it is well built and feels safe. The builder was meticulous in every way, from his bookkeeping to his maintenance practices. It also made me happy that I was able to inspect it myself. Eventually you want to actually fly instead of continually looking for an airplane.

To that point, You can spend a lot of money just looking at airplanes. Between inspection fees, travel, stolen deposits, I could have bought a nice efis/ems. I got totally screwed by one seller, mislead me about the condition of his plane, kept my deposit after I had paid for the inspection that revealed its issues. Still trying to get that money back (know any lawyers in texas?).

A note on the structure..I have seen some really bad looking workmanship on planes that had significant time on them. This gives me some comfort since these things are not falling out of the sky on a regular basis. Still I share in your basic concerns.

Just perspective....

I see a lot of really scary things on older certified airplanes.

DanH said:

Just perspective....

I see a lot of really scary things on older certified airplanes.

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No doubt. There can be mistakes in original construction or updates even in production machines.

Often when I read reports on VAF I have the feeling that people pay to much attention on riveting/build quality and to little on modifications. Maybe because all of us can critique a bad rivet but fully analyzing the effect of a modification (even a small one) is certainly beyond my capabilities in most areas. Just think about that there are probably no two RVs out there which have a perfectly equal firewall forward installation.

Now don't get me wrong I am a huge supporter of experimenting with your experimental airplane. The problem starts if somebody with an "experimental" mindset sells his/her airplane to somebody who is looking for a cheap high performing airplane. It might look and be built perfect but have some very interesting habits the buyer doesn't expect.

For me the most surprising part is how forgiving airplanes really are. I have seen both experimental and certified airplanes in horrible shape seemingly flying without any issues... .

Questin to OP

I see a lot of really scary things on older certified airplanes.

Click to expand...

No kidding!
My first airplane was a Stinson 108.
During the course of the initial inspection we found the front 2 attach holes on the horizontal stabilizer without bolts in it. The fabric covered the holes and the aircraft had passed 8 annual inspections and no one else noticed.
The HS is wedged in such a way that it could not depart the structure but it had significant play in it.

Question:
Was the price of the aircraft that you bought somehow indicative of substandard quality. The lowest priced airplane can often lead to the most expensive purchase.

wirejock said:

Ask the builder how many rivets he drilled out. If the answer is none, run away.

Click to expand...

I laughed out loud at this suggestion... Because I completely agree and can relate!

It's a great barometer to gauge a builder's perspective on the process. The actual number isn't nearly as relevant as his reaction to the question.

There was s a good side to a used kit

There is also an upside to buying used.
(1) it has a lot of work already done
(2) the price is generally lower than new
(3) there are usually some good suprizes like upgrades and extra parts that cost a lot but you are getting for "free" in the kit.

I got a decent deal that turned into an excellent deal with all the extras that were included. The workmanship was excellent.

But, with that said, I have drilled out several hundred rivits to correct some issues I personally was not happy with.

And during my search, I saw some seriously questionable items and passed on many kits.

I am in the process of looking for a good used one myself, so I am walking in your footsteps as well.

Fortunately, I've had the benefit of some good advice from a great mechanic along the way (Hi Walt!) who has helped me dodge a few big bullets as I've gotten spooled up on things to look for or avoid.

For me, if I find a candidate aircraft, I usually start with requests for pics of the tail with the fairings off before I make an investment in travel expense. The expectation is (per Walt) the tail is usually the first component built, so many times it has the most mistakes. This is to some extent, to be expected...but what the builder does when the mistakes happen answers (to me) the question on whether to proceed with this aircraft or keep looking.

I have found quite a bit of builds that reflected ummm...ahhh...a reluctance to recognize a problem and stop construction, order the new parts (if needed) and correct the error. "Build inertia" takes over, I guess.

Some of the horiz stab connections that hold it onto the fuse were downright worrisome. Many ships with bad ED of bolts and rivets back there. Other general riveting problems, mashed, bent, etc. Wrong/bad/missing hardware in flight control linkages. Etc...

If this is the way errors aren't corrected in the first part of the build, what about something harder that's can't be seen? Early errors corrected properly tell me a little about the builders approach to rigor, precision and ethic in his manufacturing process.

Likewise, slipshod or no error correction tells me something else. Too many questions found in the tail, and I have found it's probably time to move to the next candidate aircraft, as I then can't/don't trust what I can't see or what can't be revealed even with a pre-buy in the rest of the aircraft.

So far, I've been looking since last April, and while I've found some good ones, many times they are not equipped how I like, get contracts on them too quickly or are out of my price range.

Walt said about 3 out of 10 passing muster is about what I should expect...sadly, so far I have found that to be the case.

Still looking and in the market, but I will say, the wear of the search is beginning to convince me to reconsider my reluctance in taking on a project such as building one myself!

Good luck with your search!

Rob S.

Buying used can be a positive experience

Notwithstanding the obvious risks involved in a home built aircraft, I would like to add to the potential positives of buying used. My search for an RV lasted more than five years, partly due to the smaller pool of available aircraft in Australia and also due to the significantly higher asking prices here.

Some of the RV's I looked at were so shabby I didn't bother to look "under the hood". One was not even airworthy despite the $80,000 asking price.

Then a very sensibly priced RV-6A popped up, not on the other side of the country, but at a local airfield. It was equipped and fitted out almost exactly as per my list of requirements. I had a good look at it and was impressed with the build quality. Went for a fly and was more impressed. Had a pre-buy inspection and log book review by an experienced LAME and everything checked out. The seller was the second owner, a commercial pilot who seemed like a decent guy.

Other than being unable to speak to the builder directly because he is now 86 and apparently affected with Alzheimer's, I ran out of reasons not to buy it.

After five years of searching I finally became an RV owner and got the right aircraft (for me) at the right price. Things keep getting better. The aircraft came with a whole bunch of extras. Canopy cover, cowl plugs, spare parts, oil, filters, fuel pump, etc etc. even the parts for the tail SB's were included in case they are ever needed.

I did get to speak to builders brother who told me it was the second aircraft he built and I think it shows. I continue to be impressed with the overall build quality and attention to detail. There are some very minor cosmetic issues that reflect its 15 year age, but I see these as opportunities.

I'm very happy with my purchase and continue to gain confidence as I get to know my aircraft better. I doubt that I could not have done as well if I built it myself.