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  #1  
Old 09-18-2018, 11:45 AM
ksdflying ksdflying is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Antioch, Tennessee
Posts: 103
Default Riveting help. Why AD4 with thin sheets deforming?

I am asking for help, some tribal knowledge. An answer to WTF am I doing to cause this.
I've seen this before when riveting thin sheet thicknesses, like two ribs together. Only happens with 1/8" rivets.
In this repeat case, I'm riveting a AD4-4 into two .025" sheets. (Not that it matters, but the rear seat assembly) Result is a rivet meeting MIL specs, but the sheets deform...essentially they peak upwards around the manufactured head of the rivet. Technique is I am using my C-frame to back rivet these.
In contrast last night I riveted the Front seat assembly, the difference on this case is that assembly has 1 part thick, the side angles. No deformation, perfect rivet, perfect overall result. Like this case when one of the two sheets is thick this never happens. But when two .025" or even slightly on two .032 thickness...I'll get deformation. Even with bucking bar technique too.

So, with two thin sheets, and a smaller length rivet, I get these deformations.
Side note: My gun is a new 3X US AT CO. I totally hate this gun as it hits way to many repetitions, even on AD3 rivets too. Is this gun, thus the excessive repetitions causing this. I have played with air pressures a lot. My experiments doesn't solve this chronic problem.
In past it wasn't a big deal. But this time the rivets are on a seat back...which someone will see, and I'll have to roll my eyes and explain my moron moment.

Anyone that has seen this, what did you figure out to remedy this.
Dan
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Dan K. RV-8 kit purchased 2014, build start Jan 2018, Slow build Emp. done - March 2018, Slow build Wings done -Oct 2018, QB Fuselage started - Sep 2018
Avionics in - April 2019. Engine and Finish kit in hand 2019, installed. Slider canopy done.
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Last edited by ksdflying : 09-18-2018 at 11:53 AM.
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  #2  
Old 09-18-2018, 12:08 PM
RV-14E's Avatar
RV-14E RV-14E is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksdflying View Post
Anyone that has seen this, what did you figure out to remedy this.
I use these to prevent that problem. They are like very thick O-rings. I put one around the rivet shaft then buck or squeeze away. The band keeps the material compressed during the rivet setting process so the parts won't deform.

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  #3  
Old 09-18-2018, 12:16 PM
ksdflying ksdflying is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Antioch, Tennessee
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Default

Thanks for that. This trick does help greatly. I use grommets a lot. Have a variety I keep right next to the squeezer dies. Using a grommet or a latex o-ring like you have here is super helpful when squeezing...and bucking when a need pops up occasionally.
My issue here is not keeping the skins together, but right now I'm desperate for a fix. I'll give it a try and report back.

I not tried this when back riveting like I'm doing. So I'll give this a try.

Thanks.
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Dan K. RV-8 kit purchased 2014, build start Jan 2018, Slow build Emp. done - March 2018, Slow build Wings done -Oct 2018, QB Fuselage started - Sep 2018
Avionics in - April 2019. Engine and Finish kit in hand 2019, installed. Slider canopy done.
VAF dues paid!
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  #4  
Old 09-18-2018, 12:22 PM
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BrianDC BrianDC is offline
 
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Location: Northern VA
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Default

If you can't find those, look for some vinyl tubing to help keep the parts together when you rivet. I use this when I get ribs that are not laying perfectly flat.

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http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...29&postcount=9
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  #5  
Old 09-18-2018, 12:24 PM
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RV-14E RV-14E is offline
 
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Location: Colorado
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksdflying View Post
Thanks for that. This trick does help greatly. I use grommets a lot. Have a variety I keep right next to the squeezer dies. Using a grommet or a latex o-ring like you have here is super helpful when squeezing...and bucking when a need pops up occasionally.
My issue here is not keeping the skins together, but right now I'm desperate for a fix. I'll give it a try and report back.

I not tried this when back riveting like I'm doing. So I'll give this a try.

Thanks.
Forgive me, I didn't read closely enough to realize you are having this problem with backriveting. I'm not sure how using the O-rings is practical in that context. I would think that the collar and spring around your backrivet set should compress the parts together properly.

I'll yield to the more experienced members in the community.
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http://rv-14a.blogspot.com/

Go here for my free, public-domain, comprehensive GRT LOG and CSV flight data analysis program. Also swallows CSV files from Garmin, Dynon and AFS. Create complete and versatile graphs and Google Earth KMZ files based on your flight. And for GRT LOG files users, a near complete ADS-B picture.

My RV-14A's POH and checklists (condition inspection and flight) are here.
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  #6  
Old 09-18-2018, 12:27 PM
ksdflying ksdflying is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Antioch, Tennessee
Posts: 103
Default Oh My Goodness! Your Tip Worked!

Wow! Totally surprised. I'm shocked this worked!!
Black and White difference!

I added one of my rubber grommets....Absolutely perfect results.

Dam! HUGE THANK YOU!!!!

From now on, another new rule of thumb:
*When two thin parts, and riveting in a C-frame, with 1/8" rivets, always use grommets or a latex washer!!

thank you thank you thank you.
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Dan K. RV-8 kit purchased 2014, build start Jan 2018, Slow build Emp. done - March 2018, Slow build Wings done -Oct 2018, QB Fuselage started - Sep 2018
Avionics in - April 2019. Engine and Finish kit in hand 2019, installed. Slider canopy done.
VAF dues paid!
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  #7  
Old 09-18-2018, 12:31 PM
fixnflyguy fixnflyguy is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Winston-Salem, N.C.
Posts: 1,481
Default A couple things..

Try dropping down to a -3 or 3.5 length and if your back riveting, use a 1/8th universal head set for the bucktail (makes nice domed tail). Don't worry about meeting the "spec" shop head you would look for in the books. Two sheets of .025" doesn't take much to distort, and you have to use the minimum grip length possible. There are "half size" rivets available, but I don't recall if VANS uses them much..I do. My rivet gun (40 year old Ingersol 5X) is so precisely controllable it can be slowed to a single light tap easily, and you need to sneak up in these type rivet operations.
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  #8  
Old 09-18-2018, 12:35 PM
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RV-14E RV-14E is offline
 
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Location: Colorado
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksdflying View Post
Wow! Totally surprised. I'm shocked this worked!!
Black and White difference!

I added one of my rubber grommets....Absolutely perfect results.

Dam! HUGE THANK YOU!!!!

From now on, another new rule of thumb:
*When two thin parts, and riveting in a C-frame, with 1/8" rivets, always use grommets or a latex washer!!

thank you thank you thank you.
Does your backrivet set look like this (I assumed it did)?



If not, that may be the traditional solution rather than using the O-rings. The collar has a spring which serves to hold the materials together.
__________________
-E

http://rv-14a.blogspot.com/

Go here for my free, public-domain, comprehensive GRT LOG and CSV flight data analysis program. Also swallows CSV files from Garmin, Dynon and AFS. Create complete and versatile graphs and Google Earth KMZ files based on your flight. And for GRT LOG files users, a near complete ADS-B picture.

My RV-14A's POH and checklists (condition inspection and flight) are here.
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  #9  
Old 09-18-2018, 04:14 PM
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RV7A Flyer RV7A Flyer is offline
 
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Location: US
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RV-14E View Post
Does your backrivet set look like this (I assumed it did)?



If not, that may be the traditional solution rather than using the O-rings. The collar has a spring which serves to hold the materials together.
I'll bet it doesn't...he said "Technique is I am using my C-frame to back rivet these."

As noted, with a backrivet set, the collar should compress the work materials. Not so with the C-frame.
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  #10  
Old 09-18-2018, 07:29 PM
ksdflying ksdflying is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Antioch, Tennessee
Posts: 103
Default

Following up here. Todays progress was better. Definitely worked out that the o-ring or grommet addition is the trick to success. I played around with a couple options, but the grommets used today was the fix.

And yes, in my technique I am using a spring loaded set...but its the long 12" one, and the black collar on the end doesn't have a healthy spring, plus the end of this 12" set is about 3/8" diameter. So adding the grommets or what have you is the fix.

Thank you Brian L. for the vinyl tube suggestion. I like that idea. Will try it. The rubber grommets I was using today are breaking down, between the happening in the C-frame, and using in my pneumatic squeezer. If using Vinyl tubing then you can just cut another piece when it breaks down or what have you. Anyways. I like this idea too. Thank you.

Thanks for responding with help today folks. I appreciate you.
Dan
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Dan K. RV-8 kit purchased 2014, build start Jan 2018, Slow build Emp. done - March 2018, Slow build Wings done -Oct 2018, QB Fuselage started - Sep 2018
Avionics in - April 2019. Engine and Finish kit in hand 2019, installed. Slider canopy done.
VAF dues paid!

Last edited by ksdflying : 09-19-2018 at 09:19 AM.
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