Is a simplified instrument panel at first, a good way to go?

Hi All,

I'm mulling over building an RV-8. There are tons of considerations (QB vs Standard, time vs money, etc).

One of them is the instrument panel. Eventually, I would like to make this an IFR-capable airplane. But I'm wondering if it is a bad idea to start with a very simple VFR, day/night panel. Then upgrade.

A simple panel gets me flying more quickly and a bit more cheaply. I'll need time to get used to the a/c and certainly won't be flying IFR for quite a while.

But how easy is it to remove a panel and install a new one?

How easy is it to add new wiring, cabling, air hoses, vacuum pumps etc to an already -built a/c?

Will I need a stronger alternator? Or maybe it's smart to start with one that can power IFR panels. What about the battery? Any differences there?

Assume all other equipment is either there or can be installed on the engine that exists.

Thanks!

Saville said:

Hi All,

I'm mulling over building an RV-8. There are tons of considerations (QB vs Standard, time vs money, etc).

One of them is the instrument panel. Eventually, I would like to make this an IFR-capable airplane. But I'm wondering if it is a bad idea to start with a very simple VFR, day/night panel. Then upgrade.

A simple panel gets me flying more quickly and a bit more cheaply. I'll need time to get used to the a/c and certainly won't be flying IFR for quite a while.

But how easy is it to remove a panel and install a new one?

Click to expand...

After building the RV-8 re-doing a panel is definitely within your capabilities. There are some things you can do during initial build that will facilitate later updates.

How easy is it to add new wiring, cabling, air hoses, vacuum pumps etc to an already -built a/c?

Click to expand...

Air hoses and vacuum pumps aren't installed in RVs any more. Digital is now the dominant technology.

Will I need a stronger alternator? Or maybe it's smart to start with one that can power IFR panels. What about the battery? Any differences there?

Click to expand...

A 60 amp alternator and the recommended PC680 battery will be sufficient to power whatever IFR equipment you install later.

It is fun to "window shop" a panel but final decisions should be postponed until very late in your build. Panel technology is rapidly evolving and today's latest and greatest will be yesterday's tech when you get ready to build the panel. The RV-8 panel can be easily updated as avionics change.

To address your original answer--the EFIS systems currently available yeild a simple-looking panel and provide tremendous utility for the IFR pilot. The cost of building this capability into the initial build is not much more than a VFR-only panel. Build the panel you want the first time.

Gregg, Sam is spot on, plus digital stuff saves a pile of weight. Current draw is also minimal and these systems have proven themselves extremely reliable...no moving parts. Even my old legacy Dynons (8 years old) have never failed and I fly them IFR routinely.

Cross that bridge late in the build as Sam suggests.

Best,

I would suggest building what you want from the start. It is MUCH easier to run wires, tubing etc before the top skins go on. If you went with say 2-7" dynons you could cut the panel and wire for the second then just plug it in later if $ were a major factor. Just put a cover on the hole in the meantime. Same with the ADAHRS... There are other redundancies such as dual alerenators, batteries etc that you will also need to consider.

I've now got 35 hrs on my -8, and it doesn't take that long to get used to it...

In any cass I suggest wiring your panel with enough extra wire to unbolt it and set it on the seat to work on, and installing the front baggage access mod which you can find by searching on this site... These will ease later work, but it's still a PITA compared to during construction...

If you cost it out I think you would find that the incremental cost of your IFR panel would be quite modest...

Have fun with your project...

I know an avionics installer who owns an 8. He has a skyview, 696, GTN650, and a few other items in the panel. Aside from a few screws, the entire panel is removable by just unplugging 3 wire connectors.

I am not a builder but have bought and added the IFR panel stuff on a few occasions. If I were building on a budget, I would try to plan ahead and run the cables and such you might need later. An example might be to install a pitot mast and a wire to it during the build even if you do not install a heated pitot. Another example might be to run a wiring harness for autopilot servos.

Build Light

I say follow the plans, and build light.
Get that plane done. I spent too much time on the panel and the custom engine installation. I could have flown the plane YEARS sooner.
And it's all about flying the plane.
It is not hard to pull in new wires along the right side of the plane, where you can reach down thru the forward baggage door and pull thru from the switch panel to the firewall. It's tougher on the left side where the control cables and fuel lines go, but that's not avionics.
The panel is removable, so you can sit in the cockpit and pull wires from the switch panel to the instrument panel which you hang on something while you reach in behind. Make sure your wires are long enough to leave a 'Service Loop' so you can remove the panel enough to work behind it without unplugging anything.
Sometimes you have to remove the pilot's seat, back & control stick,then lay on a back board to work under the panel. That's the worst, but it's doable and not too bad.
I suppose the average RV gets one or two panel rebuilds in their lives. The RV-4 is probably the easiest with the tip over canopy and removable skin over the instrument panel. It is so easy to stand beside the airframe and simply reach in behind the panel.

My experience

My Rocket will take flight for the first time in the next week or two. I designed and built my panel/wiring just over 4 years ago. Today most of what I have installed is no longer being produced or has upgraded hardware available - VP200 - out of production, Trutrak EFIS/AP - out of production, Garmin GNS430W - out of production, Garmin 696 - superseded by the 796, camera system - mine is internally embedded, would use Go Pro or Garmin's if doing this today. The only positive thing about this is that the products are by reliable vendors who still provide support. I also have an Garmin SL30, Garmin GTX330, Trutrak ADI, and a PMA8000B audio panel.

In hindsight I wish I had done as you suggest - just created a simple VFR panel and flown the plane with that. I would install an inexpensive EFIS, a single radio, and a transponder.

I can assure you the panel I would install today for IFR purposes would be quite different than what I currently have.

With respect to wiring, most of the additional wire required is behind the panel, with the exception of the wiring for the autopilot servos.

If you go this route, I would suggest you at least configure the airplane to minimize work later. Once you start flying, you will not want to stop, and some items are much easier to do when you are still building. A couple of items I would do now:

- heated pitot
- nav lights and strobes
- alternate air for static system
- electrical system that supports ifr (see aeroelectric connection for details) to include:

- e-bus with redundancy for single point failures
- second battery
- wiring for backup alternator if you want one eventually
- 60 amp alternator will be adequate
- space on your bus bars, etc, to add extra circuits

Finally, I would add plugs between the panel and airframe, so you can easily remove the panel for the upgrade.

Aaron

If/when I build another RV it will be as light and simple as possible. (Unless its an RV-10, then everything I'm about to type doesn't apply.)

I'm not a fan of single engine hard IFR flying, and while the RV is a wonderful airplane it's not a great IFR platform. Getting above and down through a layer? Sure. But thats about all I'd want.

For an 8 I would go with a dual screen 7" skyview, transponder. You can stack them, run PFD on top and Engine/MAP 50/50 on the bottom. Two radios, one with an ILS reciever and that's it. Personally I think the GTN650 is way over kill for this airplane, and I have one. You could even do one radio and add the second later. That's it. Light and simple.

Building the airplane light and economical makes for a much more fun airplane. Put your money into a powerful solid engine, and a good prop. The lighter these airplanes are, they get exponentially more fun. I say this having a 1200 # RV-8. Some day, years from now, when it's time to upgrade I'll probably rip out half of what is in mine and take it down to what I described. You're not going to want to fly serious IFR in an RV-8.

You should try to get a flight in an RV-4 AND an RV-8.
My wife has a -4, I have an -8. I love my -8, but the -4 is pure delight to fly.
I built my -8 light, so I get the roomier cockpit, and other -8 strong points, but retain as much of the joy as possible.
I will upgrade the avionics, I started with steam gauges, but ditched the vacuum system early in the build, so Dynon D-10a replaces the AI and DG, the other big gauges remain in the panel.
A Skyview system with ADSB & radios would save weight and increase resources. Althought some of the weight reduction occurs in the wallet.
I also went on a diet and lost 25 pounds. Anything to increase the rate of climb!

Consider that no matter what type of panel you build, it WILL become outdated with upgraded models as soon as you pay for it!!!

Thus, whether you build the perfect IFR panel or a simple VFR panel, Stein Dynon Garmin et al are REALLY good at tempting you with upgrades. The simpler VFR panel might be a tad slight bit easier to upgrade than the fully built out IFR panel.

Thus, *always* build with as easy an upgrade path in mind unless you want to just cut up all your credit cards and never look at another aviation magazine or website ever again and live in blissful ignorance of all the new glass touchscreens, synthetic vision, auto-pilots, auto-trim, auto-xxx, auto-yyy, and auto-zzz's.

Initially, I was pretty adamant about having steam gauges in my plane, just for the comfort/familiarity factor that would transfer from my trainer. But as I started to price new heading indicators, attitude indicators, vacuum pumps, pressure regulators, etc., I realized that it's actually cheaper to go glass, at least for a more modest system.

I like (and will incorporate) the traditional airspeed/altimeter as backups, but I'm leaning toward a Dynon D-180 FlightDEK, plus a Garmin GTR 200 radio, Garmin X-ponder and most likely an iFly 520 GPS. I'm heeding all the good advice about not buying anything yet! (if life doesn't intervene, I'm looking at about 1.5 years till the maiden flight, with some help from QB wings & fuse )

Sig600 said:

If/when I build another RV it will be as light and simple as possible. (Unless its an RV-10, then everything I'm about to type doesn't apply.)

I'm not a fan of single engine hard IFR flying, and while the RV is a wonderful airplane it's not a great IFR platform. Getting above and down through a layer? Sure. But thats about all I'd want.
.........

You're not going to want to fly serious IFR in an RV-8.

Click to expand...

Hi. Thanks for your response!

Can you define, for me, what you consider "serious" IFR is?

Sig600 said:

I

You're not going to want to fly serious IFR in an RV-8.

Click to expand...

If, by "serious" IFRyou mean taking off at minimums, flying solid IFR XC, then landing at minimums...all known ahead of time and planned, I can say that I won't be doing much of that.

I want to be able to take off, penetrate a layer, fly VFR on top, land at my destination. Or maybe take off VFR, and land at my destination even though clouds have moved in and it's no longer VFR.

Simple answer....start out how you want to finish off.

I just did an upgrade and even with skills and knowing what I was doing, that was a minimum 250+ hour effort and the plane grounded for 6 weeks.

Result was good, but geez a lot of work. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=113145

Unless you think the upgrade is 5 years and 1000 hours of flying away, I would do it all now.

YMMV

Approach faststack

I agree with the other posters go efis from the start. If you want to skip some of the redundancy from the start, but plan on adding more later you might want to look at the approach fast stack. I used it in my build and am very pleased. One of the advantages is that each component is wired back to a hub. So adding or removing a component just means ordering a new cable. No need to change or interconnect the wiring to the other components. All the interconnects are done in the hub. Total time to wire the avionics together and to the power bus was about 10 hours to have them all powered and talking to each other. G3x,650,ps8000bt,transponder and gtr200.

I have done a lot of upgrading over the years - it is the nature of testing avionics that you end up rebuilding panels and trying new stuff. And the bottom line is that once you have experience, it is no big deal. Plan for expansion - in the space busines, we refer to "scarring" for future installations. It is far easier to run a set of wires to the tail for an autopilot servo, or a magnetomter, when you are doing the initial build than later on. Might want an APRS antenna in the wingtip? Run the wires early. Want to start with a single comm, but might add a second later? Run the antenna wire now. Leave space for additional circuit breakers or fuses in your electrical panel. Put in the larger alternator now.

If you have a vision of where you want to go, starting with a simple panel and scarring for upgrade later is a simple thing to do. I have done entire new panels in a week - with proper planning.

There is nothing wrong with getting it flying, then filling things out later, so long as you go into the process with eyes wide open - and a good plan.

Simple Panel

I say go with a simple panel if you want to get in the air quick and cheap. I had a RV-3 that I flew for several years all over the country with just a few steam gauges and a cheap handheld gps and handheld radio. You can add more equipment as your checkbook allows. The instrument panel in a RV-8(A) is very easy to pull out if you leave some slack in your wiring. After my first flight in my RV-8A I moved a couple of gauges on my panel for better viewing in a very short amount of time. My present panel is very basic, but for day VFR it meets my present needs. Fly for awhile and determine what you really want and need for safe flying.
Dennis Winkel

Perhaps think also about resale.

I agree with the post above. In addition, think about what if you decide to sell the plane, perhaps to build another one. I suspect the first thing to depreciate, and depreciate substantially, will be the expensive avionics that you thought you might want someday but never really actually needed. Good luck.

KISS

Keep the whole plane Simple and Light to include the panel.

The GRT Sport is designed for this--Keep it simple and inexpensive now, and later on if you want to add an IFR GPS or VOR receiver or other equipment, just wire it in to a serial port and/or ARINC-429 module. The ARINC-429 is an external module that can be added any time to enable vertical navigation. Same thing with autopilot, whether it's GRT servos or a TruTrak or Trio or whatever you'd like. Plan now for your serial port usage and emergency power distribution and IFR nav equipment--but you don't have to have it all now. Add capability as your time & budget allow. Paul is right about wiring-- it doesn't take much extra effort or cost to run wires now, thinking ahead for later.

I built my -9 as simple and light as I good. Like me, it has gained weight over the years.

As mentioned by others, you can upgrade it later.

Back when I was building, I looked at installing simple day VFR steam gauges and upgrading later. Then I found the Dynon EFIS coupled to a Garmin 496 and realized it cost less, weighed less, and was easier to install so I went that route and added a SkyView later.

As for the entire eBus thing, don?t bother. All the EFIS?s out there have internal batteries and regardless of which you go with, you can back it up with a portable GPS and Dynon D1/D2. That will keep you upright and allow you to navigate. Besides, if you are going to keep it simple, then you will most likely already have a good portable GPS to navigate with at first.

The catch when building to day is dealing with the entire Mode S ADSB transponder thing. You are only six short years away from needing it to fly within a mode C veil. You are going to have to spend some bucks on this thing and that alone might drive me to starting with one of the EFIS?s that offer it as an integrated option, such as the SkyView. (Sorry Katie, I don?t know if GRT has it an integrated transponder or not.)

You can always add an autopilot, electric trim, etc. later.

Spend money on things like the Andair fuel valve, comfortable seats, etc. then add the nice-to-haves later.

put a single garmin dysplay G3X, you will never regret, and later add more avionics as you need,

As others have said, it is good to start with a basic panel, while planning for the future. I would try to avoid installing anything new that you expect to pull out down the road. Picking up used items on the cheap for basic functionality is not a bad idea, but try to get things that will provide some level of compatibility down the road. For example, if you want to end up with a GRT system, go ahead and install their EIS and at least the necessary probes, and wire for the rest of the probes to be added. If you want to end up with a Skyview system or AFS, start with a used EMS D-10 and probes. If you want an attitude indicator, maybe start with a TruTrak ADI or Gemini, a GRT mini or a Dynon D-6 that can be used as a backup down the road.

If you expect to have a large EFIS down the road, cut that into your panel and put a blank over it that can hold your used items.

As others have suggested, try to avoid a vacuum system. The costs and complexities as well as the work to remove when you go electronic make it a bad move, IMHO.

It is not too difficult to gut a plane of all wiring and start from scratch, but if you run all wires to wings, tailcone, empenage, etc (including enough for future ADAHRS type units), and either use terminal blocks or, better yet, CPC-type connectors, then you could easily replace the panel and just plug a new panel in as necessary down the road without even having to open up the whole plane, except to install what isn't already there.

You can wire for a heated pitot and just start with a used pitot with a burned out heating element so you already have the correct plumbing and mount.

As others have said as well, don't make any final decisions until you are ready for the panel, which is way down the road. Towards the end, keep your eyes open for used stuff that you can pick up cheap, but don't buy a panel and avionics/instruments 3 years before you fly. I am working on helping finish a -10 and most of the avionics are brand new and are already past the 3-year warranty before ever even being fully tested. I may have a dead auto pilot servo that may not be covered by warranty (although some good companies make exceptions for cases where the item may have been DOA and just sat on a shelf for years).

In summary, you can do what you mentioned, but do it with a little planning for the future, and don't worry about it until it is time to worry about it.

N941WR said:

The catch when building to day is dealing with the entire Mode S ADSB transponder thing. You are only six short years away from needing it to fly within a mode C veil. You are going to have to spend some bucks on this thing and that alone might drive me to starting with one of the EFIS’s that offer it as an integrated option, such as the SkyView. (Sorry Katie, I don’t know if GRT has it an integrated transponder or not.)

Click to expand...

Yep...The most popular choice is the Trig TT22, which is basically the same thing as the Dynon transponder in its original manufacturer's brand (and also the same price, thru GRT.) All of our EFIS systems, including the Mini, can now serve as a control head for the remote TT21 or TT22, so that's handy. It's actually much cheaper to buy a Trig transponder certified for ADS-B now than it was to buy a Mode S Garmin GTX330 before ADS-B.