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Runway Finder Shutting Down

See http://blog.runwayfinder.com/2010/12/09/runwayfinder-going-offline/

Appears that the power of the internet brought on a significant load of negativity to FlightPrep! Keep in mind that RunwayFinder was built and owned by RV-7 builder Dave Parsons (and a really nice airplane it is), so with shallow pockets to support a defense, he had no choice but to shut down. Apparently, there's an agreement forming to allow RWF to stay up!

Go Dave!
 
RV6_flyer said:
FlightPrep and ASA are both owned by Stenbock. ASA has a lot of training stuff and books out on the market.
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I'm in the IT world where this is a fairly common tactic...and I don't like it. (Even if FlighPrep is working within the system as designed, it doesn't mean its a good business decision or that we have to like it.) As for patent law, the concept that an idea can be novel merely by moving it to a new substrate...sigh. ie. patent XXX...on the Internet!

So... yeah, I'll avoid ASA too. (They also do GoldenEagle that you can get from CSC DUATS. Note, Flightprep/Stenbock are not DUATS.)
 
Non RVer's as well

Include in the club pilots such as myself, a kit builder of another type of aircraft (yes I know, blasphemy) that participates in these forums because of the immense value of information that translates out to any type of aircraft. I too have vented my dislike of these abuses of respectable businesses and my intention of never allowing a single dime of mine to weigh down their pockets.
I'm truly glad that DR has the "voice" to put weight into the promise.


KB.
 
rv8ch said:
BTW, I disagree with the "evil lawyers" comments, they are only playing the game as it is presented. The rules of this particular game need to be changed.
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Just wait, the day will come when you are treated unjustly, then have to forefit everything because you ran out of money first. When that day comes you will eat those words and have a new view.
 
In Europe if you sue a person and fail to prevail (win) you have to pay the lawyer fees of the defendant. Here it is not the case unless the judge orders it which they rarely do. As a result the person with less money usually blinks first and gives up, whether they are right or wrong. Thats why we have so many law suits here.
 
RV7AV8R said:
In Europe if you sue a person and fail to prevail (win) you have to pay the lawyer fees of the defendant. Here it is not the case unless the judge orders it which they rarely do. As a result the person with less money usually blinks first and gives up, whether they are right or wrong. Thats why we have so many law suits here.
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I believe the loser pays the fees in Alabama. It is a state thing.
 
RV7AV8R said:
In Europe if you sue a person and fail to prevail (win) you have to pay the lawyer fees of the defendant. Here it is not the case unless the judge orders it which they rarely do. As a result the person with less money usually blinks first and gives up, whether they are right or wrong. Thats why we have so many law suits here.
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Exactly....
 
Yup, every industry in this country is suffering under the dead weight of the current legal system. And I do hold the lawyers as a whole responsible because they are all 3 branches of government (where is the balance?). They keep the system in place through a set of legal and illegal kickbacks. sigh

One of the things that irks me about the Flight Prep issue (besides what everyone else already mentioned) is that they developed most of their code under a tax-payer funded contract as part of the golden eagle project. That program and all its code should be open source!
 
Mine was sent!

I just sent my e-mail as well. Companies like Flightprep need to consider what is best for aviation and how to grow it. Suing companies that provide a great service for free is not a step in the right direction which is why they get added to the black list.
The patent agents at the patent office don't take the time to really understand if something is new and novel. Then if a patent is issued a judge will never overturn a patent because they don't want to be the referee. It is a crazy system.

I explained that unless they publicly apologize to runwayfinder.com allowing them to continue their operation at no cost, they might as well not show up at Oshkosh as it will not be fun for them. But we will have fun time if they do!
 
Update

News from FlightPrep. Not the best news. The word temporary is not great.

FlightPrep grants RunwayFinder temporary license
Although we believe RunwayFinder infringes on our patent, we also believe it is in the best interests of pilots to have RunwayFinder as an operational website. Accordingly, we have offered to grant a free-license to RunwayFinder to operate its website during this negotiation phase our legal dispute. We are not asking RunwayFinder to shut down and in-fact are offering them a temporary free-pass at our technology in hopes that this gesture of goodwill will better enable both RunwayFinder and FlightPrep to constructively work toward a mutually beneficial long-term solution.
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I just had a thought....

We need someone with connections who can economically print T-Shirts and the shirt donations can assist RunwayFinder (and the future targets) with legal fees to fight this nonsense.

Follow me on the shirt idea...

1) Brightly colored shirts.
2) Clearly stating that pilots should boycott ASA, FlightPrep, etc.​

They need to be available before SnF and Oshkosh. Imagine a sea of brightly colored shirts walking the Oshkosh fields and isles with bold print saying "Boycott ASA and Flightprep".

I'd even wear it to every aviation event I attend between now and then.

Phil
 
Phil said:
I just had a thought....

They need to be available before SnF and Oshkosh. Imagine a sea of brightly colored shirts walking the Oshkosh fields and isles with bold print saying "Boycott ASA and Flightprep".

Phil
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I wonder if AOPA needs to be contacted also. AOPA and the its Safety Foundation pass out FAR/AIM books printed by ASA at the flight instructor refreshers and I bet there is a bunch of other product that comes from ASA. If AOPA were to find other sources, this would also speek volumes.

I believe the FP vs RunwayFinder IS A SAFETY PROBLEM. Is AOPA serious about safety?

My 2 cents
 
AOPA

I am cancelling my AOPA subscription as well. They should be leading this fight against the software patent laws. Aren't they a lobby in D.C.? Obviously, for $500,000 plus a year, Fuller has his priorities set differently than mine.
 
Dang, I guess I'll have to shut down our dinky little trip planner on our EAA Chapter website:

I don't see how FlightPrep will survive the actions they have taken. They done ticked off the wrong set of folks.
 
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I am fuming right now; There is more on Runway Finder's blog, http://bit.ly/fR2reJ.

RunwayFinder doesn't use a singe bit of code developed by FlightPrep. They just did a better job of it. Unfortunately, this probably is not the last great resource that we'll lose.
 
You know it'd be one thing if Flight Prep was actually any good. I downloaded it and realized it is a POS and promptly uninstalled it.

I used RunwayFinder frequently. It was simple AND FUNCTIONAL!

I have never cared much for ASA stuff either. And yes, I am a member of VAF, EAA and AOPA and I will make my voice heard at each location.

I don't recommend you bail out on AOPA. We do need our voice (though albeit small) heard there.
 
FlightPrep v RunwayFinder is not a copyright issue
FlightPrep v RunwayFinder is not a business issue
FlightPrep v RunwayFinder is not a safety issue
FlightPrep v RunwayFinder is a cyber bullying issue
 
Walt said:
Just read this on Aero-New.net front page...

http://www.aero-news.net/news/genav.cfm?ContentBlockID=2db3fac3-26b4-4383-aa23-2c211bae792e&Dynamic=1
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OK, this is insane. FlightPrep needs to understand just how badly they have mi-stepped by now, yet apparently don't. Maybe we need to get some RV lawyers to get involved! This isn't about one site - I personally use a number of the different free flight planners, and am afraid that if RunwayFinder gets bullied into shutting down, the rest will fall as well.

Paul
 
I will personally commit to buying $100 worth of T-shirts if someone prints them as Phil suggested. Alternately, I will donate $100 to any fund intended to fight Flightprep's over-reaching attempt at a patent claim.

In my opinion, defending their "patent" might be legal, but it is ethically questionable to claim something as a patent which is such an obvious use of the art to any man on the street familiar with both aviation and software.

I have also sent a nasty email to Flightprep and have ceased using their products and have forwarded this information to my other pilot contacts.
 
If you've tried out iChart on the iPad make sure to leave an honest review on the iTunes store. The iTunes ratings are very influential with potential buyers of the products...
 
What does Google think?

I wonder if anyone has forwarded this information to Google? RunwayFinder.com was using a Google Maps API. Google generally will fight for inventive ideas on the internet, especially when they stand to gain from it. I feel in this case Google does and will continue to benefit from RunwayFinder.com's technology.

I'd like to see FlightPrep and/or their lawyer's face if they received a nice certified letter from one Google's thousands of attorneys.
 
SmittysRV said:
Someone should email/contact the national news media about this. Fox would have a field day with this...

Apparently some customers don't like the iChart:

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ichart/id384955853?mt=8
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Fox News Flash!! Small aircraft will be smashing into schools and buildings inhabited by small furry animals because pilots no longer have access to any flight planning info!

Naw.....let's not go the lamestream media route. We are plenty strong enough to exert market muscle without dragging in media who don't have a clue what this matter is all about.
 
Walt said:
Just read this on Aero-New.net front page...

http://www.aero-news.net/news/genav.cfm?ContentBlockID=2db3fac3-26b4-4383-aa23-2c211bae792e&Dynamic=1
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You know, I entered the fray somewhat cautiously. I am somewhat familiar with the concept of protecting intellectual property, and know that there are always two sides to every story. Consequently, I initially gave Mssrs. Everson and Stenbock the benefit of the doubt. If they had a business model that they had developed and someone else comes along and repackages it and gives it away, then they have every right to protect their investment, their intellectual property and their livlihood.

However, the latest news shows that they are quite willing to say one thing and do another. The benefit of the doubt that I once granted them is gone.

What needs to be done is to get this word out to other BBS and homebuilder forums. If the RV community is in lockstep to boycott these companies and it spreads to the whole homebuilding community, it may well snowball to the point where NOBODY in aviation will buy their stuff or use their online services.

"Why can't we just all get along ...?" :mad:
 
I would support any boycott/fundraising etc.

I have used ASA products in the past, but no more. Golden Eagle is no longer installed on any of my systems.

As editor of my EAA chapter newsletter, and web site, I will be sharing information about the boycott with 100 or more active pilots.
 
This is what we need for OSH and SnF.

The cost would be ~$7/each. Assuming we can buy quantities of 100+. That does not include any shipping charges, so realistically it'll probably be some where around $10/cost + the $donation.

I'd wait on donations until a real account could be setup for the fight and to ensure the cash is going to the correct people and being used the correct way.

Just an idea.

Boycott.jpg
 
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You see...in my opinion Dave is not playing the game they want him to play. I don't think they don't want him to shut his site down...they might want him to license it for even $1, under NDA...with every additional licensee adding momentum to their claim. (I worked for a company that licensed SCO...if anyone remember that. It sucked for us...) And of course, they probably wouldn't release the lawsuit claims without reaching an agreement under NDA...and that NDA would likely include "non-disparagement" provisions too. I don't imgaine this is all going down how FlightPrep intended it...

Doug, might be worth reaching out to your advertisers that sell FlightPrep or ASA to see if they would drop them with a public notice as to why, if they agree. (And anyone else with connections to anyone that sells ASA/FlightPrep too.) While what FlightPrep is doing *is* within patent law and the legal system, it doesn't mean their customers need to support their actions.

Oh, and let's keep the lawyer bashing down. RV flying or pilot lawyers would be a great asset right now! :) (And even if this is resolved happily but with the patent in force, it will probably surface again a few years from now.)

Just wanted to make sure this was quoted in full:

Update 12/13/2010 11:25PM PST
I was hoping to be able to work out an agreement with FlightPrep where the lawsuit against RunwayFinder would be withdrawn and the website could stay online in return for some free advertising and removal of this entire blog post. FlightPrep has instead decided to keep the lawsuit active, so unfortunately RunwayFinder must be shut down. FlightPrep has posted some sort of temporary license on their website instead of contacting me directly, but unfortunately does not provide relief from their claimed damages. From FlightPrep’s attorney’s letter of December 9th: “While we appreciate your offer to shut down the website to stop future infringement, we notice that your website is still operation. And without further information from you, our only means to assess the potential damages is the observation that your website had 22,256 unique visitors in July 2010. Each visit represents a potential lost sale of our client’s patented invention at $149 per sale. This damage calculation exceeds $3.2 million per month in lost revenue.”

Shutting down RunwayFinder is not an admission of infringement or validity of the FlightPrep patent.

Thanks again for all of the messages of support.

Dave
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All just my personal opinion of course...and none of this means I think FlighPrep's claim is invalid or they are acting incorrectly within our legal system or there is anything wrong with their product. /legal disclaimer :)
 
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Before this thread gets heated up I suggest Googling Avweb / Arthur Wolk to offer some suggestions as to how this discussion can be structured on VAF to avoid future problems.

Some of you may remember a situation years ago between Avweb and attorney Arthur Wolk, at the time I believe Avweb was owned by Mike Busch of Savvy Aviator fame.
http://www.savvyaviator.com/

The snippet below give a good overview.

"September 7-9 -- Watch what you say about lawyers (part XI). Aviation trial lawyer Arthur Alan Wolk, after winning a record-breaking $480 million jury verdict against Cessna last month, came in for heated criticism from readers of AVweb and other general aviation enthusiast websites (seeAug. 24-26, Aug. 20-21). Now, reports AVweb, Wolk "has filed a lawsuit against AVweb, two of its editors and four subscribers. Wolk's suit, filed in a Pennsylvania court, is critical of statements made on AVweb. The lawsuit seeks in excess of $100,000 in compensatory and punitive damages." AVweb says it is evaluating the merits of the suit. (AVweb Newswire, Sept. 6 (scroll to "On the Fly", near bottom of page)). Update Oct. 12-14(more on suit). Further update Sept. 16-17, 2002: in July 2002 AVweb capitulated and published on its website an extensive apology to Wolk, along with an apology from one of the individually sued posters."
 
FlightPrep email

Here is what I sent this morning:

FlightPrep Sales,

RE: RunwayFinder legal action

Your company has irreparably harmed a website I visit for flight planning. I am a longtime Apple customer and in the process of buying an iPad for use with flight planning applications.

This may or may not phase your sales but count me out as a prospective customer, along with many, many of my pilot friends.

Your greed and skewed values are going to affect aviation safety. But that's what you get when you let lawyers run your company.

Word of mouth has tremendous sales impact. Believe me, I know.

JPI did the same thing you are trying to do. They won but lost in the long-run. There are NO or ever will be any JPI products in either of the two airplanes I own.


Gary Palinkas
Skyview Aerial Photography
 
I wouldn't put ASholeA or FlightR.i.p. on a T-Shirt. They'll sue you for sure for that. Instead, just highlight RunwayFinder. Everyone who "knows" will know what you are saying.

Again, I repeat what I posted earlier. What ever happened to producing a superior product that everyone wants. I would NEVER use RunwayFinder if there was a superior product.

I just installed (and uninstalled) ICharts for my IPAD. It's lame. Sorry, ForeFlight and SkyCharts are MUCH, MUCH better. SkyCharts is $20/year and ForeFlight is $80. I am happy to pay it. EyeCharts is $50.

These are my private opinions. Please don't sue me, uh....or take away my constitution!!! I am really sorry that you suck FlightRip
 
3.2 Million Dollars????

I am experiencing the extremes of emotion. :confused:

At one end I felt laughter at the absolutely ridiculous claim of 3.2 million dollars based on $149 for use of their software. Do they think I, or anyone, would pay $149 for use of a web site just to plan a flight? Do they think that their patented software will generate over 3 million dollars a month? What stupid math is this?

At the other end I am feeling anger that a bully can legally beat up a little guy just because he wants to. And the result is that I and a host of other pilots will not be able to use a convenient, reliable and accurate resource for planning our flights. I admit I've done a lot more "what-if" flight planning for a lot of dream trips, but I've used it for a lot of personal as well as animal rescue flights. Of course, I share the concern that others have expressed relative to other flight planning sites closing down due to fear of this bully.

This is just...nauseating. :mad:

I did make a phone call to the FlightPrep home office last week and asked for one of the two partners, not the lawyer, the other one. No surprise to me that the receptionist indicated he was "not available." But I asked her to relay the message that I had read postings on both their web site and on Dave Parsons' web site, concluding that I thought their actions were predatory and would result in less, not more revenue for their company.

My 2 cents worth.
 
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That yellow T-Shirt color just begs to add the Gadsden snake and motto down below the boycott message.

EDIT, Tony's (apkp777) advice is probably good. Just say "Boycott the Bastages" and everyone will know who you mean.
 
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Talk about picking the fly slit out of the pepper. The Flight Prep site states they have their hand in many other products / projects such as the FAA, Airguide Publications (little brown book), Zaon Systems and WxWorks. It's like trying to find a town without a WalMart.
It's hard to believe RwyFinder was as big a pain as FP made them out to be.
 
Steve said:
Talk about picking the fly slit out of the pepper. The Flight Prep site states they have their hand in many other products / projects such as the FAA, Airguide Publications (little brown book), Zaon Systems and WxWorks. It's like trying to find a town without a WalMart.
It's hard to believe RwyFinder was as big a pain as FP made them out to be.
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They didn't do a good job on the Airguide books and the move to internet-based - see a VAF search on their new approach.

Since Airnav does for free on-line what the brown book did, perhaps they will be next?

And free Skyvector hasn't been mentioned on their sectional displays - yet...
 
Email Sent

This email just sent to Mr. Stenbock and Mr. Evenson:

Mr. Evenson and Mr. Stenbock,

My name is John Russo and I'm a private pilot. I'm writing to you to let you know how I feel about your decision to sue runwayfinder.com. I feel that your lawsuit is completely absurd, as the service offered by Flightprep and runwyafinder.com are completely different. I used to use both services, but from now on, I will use neither. I will not use runwayfinder.com for the obvious reason that you and your lawyers bullied them out of bussiness. I will not use flightpreps services because I do not want one penny of my hard earned dollars to ever find its way into either of your pockets. In fact, I only used Flightpreps free online planner, but I will not use that anymore either. Not only do I not want to spend my money on your products, I don't want my visit to your website to add to the number of page views you use to drive up your advertising price.

It is actions like this, where the Big Business bullies the little guy into oblivion simply because they can, make me steadfast in my resolve to NEVER, EVER USE YOUR PRODUCTS AGAIN.

Sincerly,

John T Russo
Private Pilot
 
Looks like from the posts on the Kathryn Report that the yahoos are going ahead with the lawsuit anyway. I'd sure like to see them try and take on somebody with money so that they can get their butts handed to them.
I "hope" that this will be resolved in the end mutually. GA is such a small group of people that we need to be sticking together.
 
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Don't you just hate it?

I hate it when grownups can't resolve a problem honestly. From the above link, this:

We are writing this release to dispel some significant misconceptions regarding our dealings with Mr. David Parsons of RunwayFinder, LLC.

Mr. Parsons, on his own accord and in an apparent ploy to gain sympathy from the pilot community, shut down the RunwayFinder website on December 13, 2010 at 11:25pm PST, in the face of our good faith offer to provide RunwayFinder a free license during negotiation for a constructive resolution to our dispute and absent any demands by FlightPrep. FlightPrep attempted to contact Mr. Parsons numerous times prior to his decision to shut down RunwayFinder, including a call on December 13, 2010 at 1:00pm. However, Mr. Parsons did not return any of our calls.

Some in the pilot community are of the opinion that patents are unfair and should not be granted for software. We doubt we can change their minds with this news release. However, the fact is many patents are issued for software inventions every year. Without them inventors would have little incentive to advance state of the art technologies. Applying for patents and seeking royalties are normal and sound business practices and are done by virtually all successful technology businesses, large or small.

As part of this process, FlightPrep attempted to contact Mr. Parsons of RunwayFinder, LLC by phone and registered letters on numerous occasions over a protracted period of time. All of these attempts were ignored and rejected. Absent allowing RunwayFinder unfettered and uncompensated use of our intellectual property, a lawsuit was our only remaining next step.

Mr. Parsons response was to elect to try this case in the court of public opinion instead of employing professional and good faith business practices. Since this technique is counterproductive, we did not care to participate. Yet, we find we must respond to news reports and RunwayFinder?s blog posts containing several distortions and outright false statements about FlightPrep, its employees, representatives, technology, and motives. This latest move of RunwayFinder, electing to shut down its website, is another example of an attempt to inflame the pilot community.

In spite of the foregoing, FlightPrep stands by its offer to grant a free-license to RunwayFinder to operate its website during this negotiation phase of our legal dispute. We are not asking RunwayFinder to shut down and in-fact are offering them a temporary free-pass at our technology in hopes that this gesture of goodwill will better enable both RunwayFinder and FlightPrep to constructively work toward a mutually beneficial long-term solution.

If you would like to learn more about our online flight planning patent, please visit http://www.flightprep.com/license or email [email protected].

So, who is telling the truth? One side or the other is not being honest.
 
So, they joined the "fight" in the "court of public opinion".

Even after slamming Dave Parsons for doing so.

Methinks the emails are getting to them;)
 
Mike S said:
So, they joined the "fight" in the "court of public opinion".

Even after slamming Dave Parsons for doing so.

Methinks the emails are getting to them;)
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I agree.

I made a post on their Facebook page stating that I thought their bullying of Runwayfinder.com was absurd and I'd no longer be using their free website. Within minutes they posted a personal reply, with a link to the letter copied above.

If you're on Facebook, and you have an opinion on this matter, I would encourage you to make a post on their Wall. Hopefully it will have an effect.
 
N8RV said:
So, who is telling the truth? One side or the other is not being honest.
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I don't think anything has changed here. If I were Dave, I would pull it too. He didn't infringe on their patent, wrote his own code, did his own thing in his own way, and should not in any way accept their "temporary license" to use "their technology". Yeah, it makes me hopping mad too!
 
N8RV said:
So, who is telling the truth? One side or the other is not being honest.
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Note that they are not granting him a free temporary license indefinitely, only "to operate its website during this negotiation phase of our legal dispute. We are not asking RunwayFinder to shut down and in-fact are offering them a temporary free-pass at our technology in hopes that this gesture of goodwill will better enable both RunwayFinder and FlightPrep to constructively work toward a mutually beneficial long-term solution."

The way I interpret that is if the website stays up, Dave needs a lawyer. I don't know Dave, his financial situation or how much revenue if any Runwayfinder.com generates, but I can only guess that cost of obtaining a lawyer and fighting this legal battle can not be justified from a cost/benefit point of view. So the website gets shut down and we all lose a great resource for flight planning.
 
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