What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Don't put your life in ATC's hands

A friend who was a Lear captain was directed by Sacramento (I think) ATC to maintain an altitude which he was uneasy with, given the surrounding terrain. A few seconds later, he got a GPWS alarm and pulled up max climb rate. ATC blasted him. He explained his actions. When he landed and plotted his rough position at the time, he saw he was seconds away from ground impact.

He had a talk with the controller's supervisor later. Not sure what transpired.

IFR, be especially careful with high ground around. You can always say unable to comply if the instruction seems unsafe. Better to be lambasted than dead.
 
REMEMBER>>>>>>

ATC's sole purpose is separation of air traffic. That's it.

As a flight superintendent (dispatch) for a major airline, we see it EVERY day. It's up to you to maintain a level of safety you are comfortable with.
 
rv6ejguy said:
A friend who was a Lear captain was directed by Sacramento (I think) ATC to maintain an altitude which he was uneasy with, given the surrounding terrain. A few seconds later, he got a GPWS alarm and pulled up max climb rate. ATC blasted him. He explained his actions. When he landed and plotted his rough position at the time, he saw he was seconds away from ground impact.

And with some of those new fangled "glass panels" (GPS/terrain overlay), and you'll know of the impending terrain problem........far ahead of time, before the ground proximity alarm sounds it's warning!

With a Avidyne, Chelton, Garmin 1000's, as well as others, as standard equipment, this scenario would be a no brainer.

And now that you've lightened up a bit on "glass panels", I can see it now ---- RV10 with glass (maybe)! :D

L.Adamson --- been keeping track of flight into terrain accidents for a long, long, time! It's why I'm extremely in favor of new technology, as we'd average around three of them in this part of the country every year.
 
L.Adamson said:
And with some of those new fangled "glass panels" (GPS/terrain overlay), and you'll know of the impending terrain problem........far ahead of time, before the ground proximity alarm sounds it's warning!

With a Avidyne, Chelton, Garmin 1000's, as well as others, as standard equipment, this scenario would be a no brainer.

And now that you've lightened up a bit on "glass panels", I can see it now ---- RV10 with glass (maybe)! :D

L.Adamson --- been keeping track of flight into terrain accidents for a long, long, time! It's why I'm extremely in favor of new technology, as we'd average around three of them in this part of the country every year.

This incident was many years ago before the terrain displays came out. In my Cirrus demo ride last week, our pilot purposely flew towards a hill (VFR) and we had first a flashing terrain warning then a few seconds later an aural warning on the Avidyne. Very cool and I wouldn't be without this flying night VFR or IFR for sure. Day VFR, I don't need it. Panel is done now anyway.
 
Interesting bit in the .pdf file John linked:

Approach control radar systems provide near-real-time weather depiction. En route centers receive weather radar information from National Weather Service NEXRAD sites that refresh the color precipitation data on ATC displays every 4 to 5 minutes.

Hmm, I didn't know that....thought they were all near real time.
 
L.Adamson said:
And with some of those new fangled "glass panels" (GPS/terrain overlay), and you'll know of the impending terrain problem........far ahead of time, before the ground proximity alarm sounds it's warning!

With a Avidyne, Chelton, Garmin 1000's, as well as others, as standard equipment, this scenario would be a no brainer.

Situational awareness (or lack of it) is the bottom line in these incidents. High-tech glass is wonderful but I don't want to be memorialized with "except for the software glitch he would be alive." Technology will never replace preparation, knowledge, and skill.

"The other"
John Clark. ATP CFI
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
You're the captain.

While we may like to think ATC should have known his situation, Whoever is in the left seat is responsible, period. I listened to the tapes and he never advised he was having instrument trouble and needed to be VMC now. It is a sad situation and a grim reminder that we are responsible for our own safety. Listening to the controllers talk about vacuum tubes should be a wake up call that to the ones that are not pilots, we are a blip on a screen.
 
John Clark said:
High-tech glass is wonderful but I don't want to be memorialized with "except for the software glitch he would be alive." Technology will never replace preparation, knowledge, and skill.

And on the other hand, there have been far too many "flight into terrain accidents, in which this new technology could have made a world of difference for high time, low time, commercial, military, and GA pilots. It's all well documented.

It's just that momentary loss of situational awareness, that seems to get everyone; despite, as you say, their preparation, knowledge and skill.

In all seriousness, today's technology and occasional software glitches certainly beats what we've had in the past. I have plenty of flight into terrain accident reports over the last 50 years to prove it.

And once synthesized 3D terrain overlays become common for IFR and night operations, then all the better!

As I've mentioned previously, when a DC-8 flew into the hill close to home years ago, I kind of took an interest to this type of problem.

L.Adamson --- just a Garmin 296
 
L.Adamson said:
And on the other hand, there have been far too many "flight into terrain accidents, in which this new technology could have made a world of difference for high time, low time, commercial, military, and GA pilots. It's all well documented.

It's just that momentary loss of situational awareness, that seems to get everyone; despite, as you say, their preparation, knowledge and skill.

In all seriousness, today's technology and occasional software glitches certainly beats what we've had in the past. I have plenty of flight into terrain accident reports over the last 50 years to prove it.

And once synthesized 3D terrain overlays become common for IFR and night operations, then all the better!

As I've mentioned previously, when a DC-8 flew into the hill close to home years ago, I kind of took an interest to this type of problem.

L.Adamson --- just a Garmin 296

I agree. My problem is with the people that feel that they can replace "preparation, knowledge, and skill" with technology alone. The "Cirrus Syndrome," the attitude that the equipment is invincable, really frightens me.
As an aside, I was talking to a local Pilot Examiner about instrument checkrides while we were looking at a new Diamond Twinstar. while looking at the panel I ask what would fail first on a checkride. The examiner laughed and said "most of it."

John Clark ATP CFI
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
Steam gauges, Garmin 430, and paper charts
KSBA
 
On departure from ADS today I'm told by the tower (outside of the class D) to look out for a Southwest jet that's a few hundred feet above me and going to pass a mile or two in front. Sure enough, there it is at 10 o'clock moving to my right. I'm at 1700 feet and the bottom of the class B is 3000 feet and he passes right in front of me. It's totally VFR, by the way.

I guess the airlines are preparing for the day when there's no GA and they own the skies.
 
And I am sure that Southwest was complying with the 200 knot limitation below the floor of the class B.

I was doing 250 knots at 8000 ft in class B a few years ago, and ATC gave me a vector to allow Southwest at 7000 ft to pass me because he had a 60 knot overtake!

Pat
 
Tid bits and FYI...

Hi All,

1st - Me ATC 25 yrs. 2nd - I am NOT commenting in an official manner (they don't like it when we do that). So......

We are ALL human. Very important. Humans ALWAYS make mistakes. Fortunately, most of the mistakes result in non-events. Example: N123 calls me 15nm SE of ABC leaving 015 requesting climb to 080. No problem says I... cleard to, via, climb and maintain 080. Only problem is - he MEANT to say SW and there is traffic over on that side. OOPS.

I have NEVER said left and meant right. I have NEVER said FL330 and meant FL350 - NEVER. And yes, I have some swamp land for sale. Pristine. Pennies on the dollar. You can get a sub-prime mortgage and flip it an a couple of years and make a killing. Yep.

NEXRAD weather..... great concept. Especially if it worked. Sometimes it does... sometimes it - well...... 5-6 minutes at the ARTCC's. That would be better than the stuff I look at. Maybe my ARTCC has a waiver.....

PIC - I do that occasionally. IFR (I Follow Roads) GPS - I LOVE it! (but still go IFR) All the new tech is muy bueno - just don't forget basic stick-n-rudder (Van put these in his airplanes for a reason).

I'm glad that well over a million pilots have had a safe flight while on my freq. Knock on wood, I haven't lost one yet. To err is human. We all do it sooner or later. When you DO - try not to scrape paint.

Jeff Wirs
ZMA - Ocean
3rd rock from the Sun

RV-8A fuselage
N598WT
 
training

Jeff,

I agree with you that the ATC folks are human, as are we pilots. We all make mistakes. As the saying goes "the pilot makes a mistake, the pilot dies....the ATC makes a mistake, the pilot dies". Of course all mistakes are not fatal and the saying is perhaps overstating it.

The issue, as I see it, is training. In the tape of the tragic crash the ATC person did not understand what a vaccum pump failure meant. She actually described it as a vaccum tube at on point, it was clear that she had no concept of the dangerous situation that the pilot faced. No person should ever be in her seat without that understanding. The fault is not hers. It is that of the person who allowed her to be in that position without a complete understanding of the information relayed to her by a pilot in distress.

We pilots are required to be trained to a level of proficiency. ATC personnel should be trained to the same level of proficiency in their jobs. If we are told to turn to a certain heading, and climb or desend to a certain altitude, we do it because we are trained to, and we are required to. We have to trust that the person giving us those instructions knows what they are doing. Because I have never had a problem or issue with the instructions that I have been given, I was suprised by the information I discovered at the beginning of this thread.

The NTSB recommended that all ATC personnel pass the IFR written test every five years. My first reaction was that was a pretty tough requirement for them. Upon reflection, that seems to be an excellent idea. If the controller on the tape had done that, she would have understood that the pilot she was communicating with had a real emergency, and would have known the best way to help him. The result might have been the same. There is only so much you can do to help a pilot while you are sitting at a console on the ground.

What this thread has taught me as a pilot is to be very clear about my situation when communicating with ATC. I will not be as timid about using the E word, or sqwaking 7700 in the future.

Please do not take this as a slight against ATC or a rant. I have had only positive interaction with ATC and I respect and appreciate what you do.

BTW, when your 8 is finished, I look forward to seeing you in the skies around central Florida. I am still working on my 8A.

Blue skies,

Tony
 
Separation

It's been my experience that ATC is far more competent and less error-prone than the pilots they control. Sure they make the occasional error, but I am very comfortable with their level of professionalism. Besides, if you are going to fly within the system, you must trust ATC.

Every approach chart has the MSA printed at the upper right hand corner. Always keep the closest VOR to the airport tuned for orientation while being vectored so as to assure your own terrain clearance. ATC is for separation,
not weather avoidance or terrain clearance.
 
Another FL 8A

tonyjohnson said:
BTW, when your 8 is finished, I look forward to seeing you in the skies around central Florida. I am still working on my 8A.

Blue skies,

Tony


Sorry to hijack the thread ... but ... Tony, I just moved to Winter Springs and have been meaning to get a hold of you since I saw the feature story on the special rivets you drove on memorial day. I too am building an 8A (unfortunately still in storage in CA while I set up my shop here) an would love to get together and check out your bird. Feel free to e-mail me ([email protected]) or PM.
 
Very sobering final words...

From NTSB report.... When the pilot contacted Albuquerque Approach Control at 1526:06, he verified that he was at 17,600 feet, and added, "We've lost both our vacuum pumps, and I think we just went through a roll. We've got electric driven backup systems -- electric horizon and electric compass -- and they're not agreeing with each other at this time. We're gonna need some help." The controller asked the pilot is he was "stable there at one seven thousand four hundred," to which the pilot replied, "Negative. . .we're not necessarily stable." At 1526:48 the pilot said, "Nine November Lima, we're going to need some help!" At 1527:07 the pilot said, "We're at one four thousand four hundred [feet]." At 1527:20 the pilot radioed, "Nine November Lima, we're going down. We're dead."


I find it interesting, as someone noted earlier, that the pilot never used the word "Emergency" in any of the audio or transcripts that I've found. Maybe that would have helped draw more experienced attention from ATC. He did ask for "Help" but that still didn't seem to trigger many alarms.

In thinking about this, and it's easy to do that sitting here at my keyboard, I think the best steps in that situation would have been:

Needle, ball, airspeed...
Power back
Drop the gear
Add a notch or two of flaps
Open the cowl flaps
Do anything else to get the airplane "Dirty"

The NTSB report said witnesses saw a wing depart the aircraft after it had descended below the cloud deck. One witness saw the airplane just as it rounded the top of a loop. The pilot was obviously disoriented and ended up with over-Gs on the airframe.

Very sad. But maybe something good can come from one of us learning and not making the same mistakes one day.
 
Last edited:
This is a good reason not to dump your turn coordinator for another fancier instrument. About fifteen years ago, I was flying an Aerostar on an IFR flight from Philadelphia to Harrisburg, PA. I was listening to an exchange between a single engine plane that had lost his instruments "in the soup" and was having trouble controlling his plane. The controllers were giving him the usual vectors, just the kind of turning maneuvers sure to get you killed in these situations. I finally broke in on the conversation and asked the pilot if he had a working turn coordinator. He replied "yes" and I just ordered him to "fly it"! I finally had to change freqs, but I called Philly approach later to find out that the guy had regained control, and had landed safely. Moral of story: Fly the airplane first, second and third! Practice partial panel, and use whatever good instruments you have left to maintain control. Tell the controller you'll get back to him when you can!
 
Priorities..

Strange that our Pastor would say something that reminded me of this. People will spend $40,000 for an SUV and not $40 on a nice leather-bound Bible........It occurred to me that many pilots will spend as much as a home costs on their RV...or any experimental, and not be willing to have in-cockpit weather and terrain/obstruction warning information because it costs a dollar a day. It's great to have conservative limits and only fly a cross-country when the clouds are scattered and few and far between. The reality of the situation is that you never know when or where a big old ball-breaking T-cumulus is going to develop. It's usually on your way home, it seems. Do you now wish you had that WX subscription or do you try to fly home and just somehow "get around 'em"? Thoughts........?

Pierre
 
opticsguy said:
On departure from ADS today I'm told by the tower (outside of the class D) to look out for a Southwest jet that's a few hundred feet above me and going to pass a mile or two in front. Sure enough, there it is at 10 o'clock moving to my right. I'm at 1700 feet and the bottom of the class B is 3000 feet and he passes right in front of me. It's totally VFR, by the way.

I guess the airlines are preparing for the day when there's no GA and they own the skies.
I've noticed a change recently in our area. Back in the 70's, Indy Approach used to bring airliners into the Class airspace (TRSA back then) very low. That was until a C-172 with a student pilot hit the tail of a USAir 727 at 3500 feet over 30 miles from the airport and killed everyone on both airplanes. So they switched methods and started bringing them in much higher. Now it seems they are back to the low technique again. Just a couple of weeks ago I saw an airliner pass off to my side below 4000 feet. I was not talking to approach but assume he made the airliner aware of my position.
 
Back
Top