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frankh

Well Known Member
Ok so this one is less than steller and shows me trying to teach myself vertical rolls.

They say the camera never lies and if so I can now see whats happening I think...More right rudder required and forward stick to stop it falling backwards...Its supposed to be a hammerhead..:)

Set to suitably depressing music....Enjoy

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YdgyH9eJPCY

Frank
 
Acro

Great video! At first I thought you had smoke, then realised that I was seeing contrails.
 
Well not really

I need some serious practice here...If I can keep the thing vertical and the wings level with the little aileron deflection I was using, then in theory I can start getting more aggressive.

One thing is for sure I ain't Red Bull entrant!...:)

Frank
 
Frank, great video! The key to a good vertical roll is to be pointing exactly upwards when you roll, and to ensure you only use lateral stick - its real easy to sneak in a tiny smidge of elevator that gives you the impression of doing something wrong with the rudder.

Go do some ballistic rolls to figure out exactly where the stick must hit your thigh to be a neutral elevator roll (if your backside moves in the seat you have put in some elevator). Now practice hitting that spot every time on the ground while watching the elevator to make sure it doesn't move.

To get to the true vertical you need a wing tip sight or some pin stripping tape on the canopy. Put a line of tape vertically on the canopy so that it will be parallel (above) or on the horizon when you are vertical. Get a buddy to watch you pull to the vertical a few times to make sure it is in the right place (BTW an RV fuselage will not be vertical when the airplane is going straight up = wing producing no lift). As soon as the nose is above the horizon watch the wing tip & tape. Put the tape parallel to the horizon, put the stick on the correct place on your thigh and the horizon will spin around. Sounds easy - I know how easy it really is!

Great feeling when you can do it repeatedly every time. Could I suggest a higher entry speed to give yourself longer to find the vertical and to get the roll in? A pull humpty might also be a better way over the top when learning?

Keep the videos coming.

Pete

PS When you hammerhead watch the point on the horizon that the down going wing tip leaves to make sure the nose and the other wing tip pass through the same point. Once again hammerheads from the true vertical are much easier.

PPS Sorry if I'm seaching granny to suck eggs!
 
Great Video

Not easy doing these things with a non-symmetrical airfoil I would suspect. I bet you would nail it first time with an aerobatic airplane.
 
Pete....

Frank, great video! PPS Sorry if I'm seaching granny to suck eggs!


I absolutley appreciate the help...In now way are you teaching Granny to suck eggs...I was clearly screwing them up (the Zlin i trained on was good for a 1/4 roll...But a 1/4 roll is definately not a full 2 turn vertical).

So it was my intention was to get some input (in fact Groucho suggested videoing them for some remote instruction...What a splendid idea!..:)..)


Ok at the risk of appearing dumb, what exactly do you mean by a "ballistic roll?"

The VR should look pretty good with this video setup..:)

Thanks

Frank
 
Ok a Dumb question

How can a wing that is going straight up at 150kts not be producing lift?....I mean would you not need some forward elevator to stop the lift of the wings from pushing you over backwards?

Presumably this lift would then decrease as you get to the top of the vertical.

I do agree on the pull humpty...I was taught to do humpty's with a a little more speed at the top than with the hammerhead...Seems the RV is quite happy to fall over backwards anyway so 30kts is probably perfectly OK for a pull humpty in this airplane.

isn't it really cool to get to the top of a vertical and be perfectly comfortable with the thing basically falling out of the sky...before i went to acro school I scared of stalls..ha ha ha!!!!

Frank
 
Hi Frank,

The guy who taught me in a Pitts had me pull the nose up to about 30 deg and push the stick over, just letting the airplane roll, not worrying about pitch. As you ease the stick slightly forwards and backwards (while rolling) you will fell your butt sliding one way and the other in the seat. At one point you wont be sliding, this is the neutral elevator position, remember where on your thigh that is. The old Pitts (S2A) would get 2 or 3 rolls before it was heading down at a good rate (IIRC), so we did it over again & again until I understood what was going on.

When you get the wing at the angle of attack that produces no lift (ie the zero lift axis of the airplane is in line with the relative airflow - that's not the same as zero angle of attack for a cambered RV airfoil) then it doesn't matter how fast or slow you go, the wing won't produce any lift. If you're going straight up and producing no lift your rolls will be much better (but I don't know what effect the differential ailerons will have). If the wing is producing lift the airplane won't be going straight up - so your buddy on the ground will be able to tell you the tape is at the wrong angle. When you roll in the vertical with the wing producing lift after 90 deg one wing will be down and the other up - looks like a rudder error when in fact its an elevator problem.

Acro school has a lot to answer for!!!

Pete
 
Ahh...And thats what was happening

Cool....We got clear blue sky, a video camera and a roll of electrical tape.

And I'mm off work in in an hour!...:)

Thanks

Frank
 
Hi Frank,

The guy who taught me in a Pitts had me pull the nose up to about 30 deg and push the stick over, just letting the airplane roll, not worrying about pitch. As you ease the stick slightly forwards and backwards (while rolling) you will fell your butt sliding one way and the other in the seat. At one point you wont be sliding, this is the neutral elevator position, remember where on your thigh that is. The old Pitts (S2A) would get 2 or 3 rolls before it was heading down at a good rate (IIRC), so we did it over again & again until I understood what was going on.

When you get the wing at the angle of attack that produces no lift (ie the zero lift axis of the airplane is in line with the relative airflow - that's not the same as zero angle of attack for a cambered RV airfoil) then it doesn't matter how fast or slow you go, the wing won't produce any lift. If you're going straight up and producing no lift your rolls will be much better (but I don't know what effect the differential ailerons will have). If the wing is producing lift the airplane won't be going straight up - so your buddy on the ground will be able to tell you the tape is at the wrong angle. When you roll in the vertical with the wing producing lift after 90 deg one wing will be down and the other up - looks like a rudder error when in fact its an elevator problem.

Acro school has a lot to answer for!!!

Pete


Ahh..so...in a cambered airfoil the zero lift point point will be slightly forward..Maybe thats why it wants to fall on its back all the time?

Hmm, the plot thickens.

frank
 
It doesn't matter if the wing is symmetrical or non-symmetrical ("cambered"). To perform a vertical roll, you need to put the airplane on the zero lift line. This is the vertical position where the angle of attack is zero. No AOA, no lift.

Even with a non-symmetrical wing like the one on an RV, there are still two intersecting lines which define this angle of attack thingie. One is the relative wind, and the other is the chord line. The camber doesn't mean you can't get to zero AOA. By definition, the chord line is still a line, and the angle between it and the relative wind can be reduced to zero no matter what kind of airfoil you've got.

As seen from the ground, these vertical rolls may appear slightly barreled because of the relationship between the wing and the fuselage, but that's a minor distinction which would only be of significance if you were in formal competition.

In theory no rudder should be required during this vertical roll since to zero lift line means aileron drag is the same on both sides. But this assumes your ailerons deflect equally.

The easiest way to learn vertical rolls is to first learn to establish good vertical lines. Consistently. Without them, you won't progress. Second, just try a quarter roll on an upline, and don't use full aileron deflection. You want to see what's happening. You want to be able to visually spot the point where the aircraft comes off axis. If you roll left, you'll have a slightly easier time of it since torque is going to be wanting to roll the plane in that direction anyway.

Since you mentioned hammerheads, I would master those before attempting vertical rolls. It's an easier maneuver. Vertical rolls are deceptively difficult. A reference for that zero lift line is also important, whether it be a piece of tape on the canopy or a formal sighting device on the wing. Here's a video of a vertical roll (a torque roll, actually, but the airplane is placed on that zero lift line and that's what I wanted to illustrate):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AplVT0b768

Also, a side note regarding the hammerhead: when you kick in that rudder at the top of a hammerhead (assuming your going to yaw left), the gyroscopic force from the propeller turning at max RPM will want to push you over on your back. The natural tendency is to push forward to on the stick to keep that from happening. Since you're slow, you might need a fair amount of that forward stick. Think about where the controls are now positioned: full left rudder, close to full forward elevator, full power, and by definition uncoordinated. In other words, the proper position for an inverted flat spin.

If you haven't had advanced spin training covering all eight spin modes (nine if you want to include knife edge spins, but I'll exclude that one since it's extremely unlikely unless you wanted to get into one), I highly recommend it before you start getting into this stuff. More than one person has ended up in such a spin, botched the recovery, and been killed. The answer to this is training, training, training.

RVs are great aerobatic airplanes, but they are high performance and have to be treated that way if you want to protect the aircraft and yourself. Especially for the less experienced aerobatic pilot, they're easier to overstress than many other aerobatic rides.
 
Good point

Actually as everybody says training is mandatory. Just because you see me "trying" vertical rolls does not mean I have not had training. The Zlin I trained on was only good for about a 1/4 roll on the way up.

In this case I can do hammerheads very well and inverted spins were also part of that training....In fact the Zlins spins better inverted than it does right side up..:).

The RV is very reluctant to spin inverted...I did it once and have yet to get it past 1.5 turns inverted.

But the warning is well received.

Thanks

Frank
 
Ahh..so...in a cambered airfoil the zero lift point point will be slightly forward..Maybe thats why it wants to fall on its back all the time?

Hmm, the plot thickens.

frank

From a judge's perspective, the vertical ZLA (zero lift axis) on an RV would appear slightly positive in attitude due to the airfoil and incidence. A good judge should allow for this, knowing the aircraft design, but it's still a disadvantage compared to the symmetrical wing acro mounts.

As has been said, it's all about establishing a vertical ZLA. One thing that might help is setting your trim for zero lift before attempting the vertical roll.
With good straight and level speed, pull to 45 deg. and let go of the stick. Look at the accelerometer, it will probably indicate a little less than 1G if you were trimmed for hands off level flight. Now move the trim lever forward until the accelerometer reads zero. Setting your trim like this may help reduce inadvertent or incorrect elevator inputs once you're vertical and beginning to roll.
 
Cool

And thanks for the video of the VR Ron....All wonderful advice...Of course now I want to build a Pitts (can't afford an Extra)...:)

Frank
 
A ballistic roll is when you roll at zero g. At zero g there is no adverse yaw, and there is zero lift. Pull up, push over for zero, and roll. Feet on the floor. The ball won't move. When there is no lift the differential drag of the ailerons is whats rolling the airplane.
 
Noe should I

Go flying after work (with all the great ideas above)...Or should I cook Dinner for my lovely Wife?

Choices, choices...:)

Frank
 
It doesn't matter if the wing is symmetrical or non-symmetrical ("cambered"). To perform a vertical roll, you need to put the airplane on the zero lift line. This is the vertical position where the angle of attack is zero. No AOA, no lift.

Even with a non-symmetrical wing like the one on an RV, there are still two intersecting lines which define this angle of attack thingie. One is the relative wind, and the other is the chord line. The camber doesn't mean you can't get to zero AOA. By definition, the chord line is still a line, and the angle between it and the relative wind can be reduced to zero no matter what kind of airfoil you've got.

Sorry to be late on this - I've been away for a couple of days, but, Ron, I don't really agree with you here. A cambered airfoil at zero AoA will still produce some lift because it has some camber. To generate no lift, a cambered airfoil must have a negative AoA, by a few degrees. To determine the aircraft (usually means fuselage) attitude for zero lift the angle of incidence has to be considered, that's the angle between the chord line of the wing and fuselage. I believe this is only a degree or two for an RV. This angle gives the wing a small AoA while keeping the fuselage about level in the cruise.

Look at any 'normal' airplane in inverted flight (that is one that does not have a symmetrical airfoil installed at zero incidence), the tail looks way down compared to erect flight. The same is true for a truly vertical up line, fuselage will look like it has not yet reached the vertical to a ground observer. To tell the real vertical you need an experienced acro judge - or you need to use a stick to give a reference (ignoring wind).

Frank, I think you should cook dinner tonight - that way you can go fly all weekend ...

Rocketbob, when an aileron is deflected at the zero lift AoA the effective camber of the outboard sections of the wing is changed (by the movement of the ailerons), so they now have an AoA and those parts now generate lift.

There are plenty of good books out there that describe all this stuff better than I can - Flight Unlimited by Eric Mueller, Better Aerobatics by Alan Cassidy, and I suspect several others.

Pete
 
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That was my thought Pete

I have decided to try VR's with differeing vertical lines starting somewhat nose down...Maybe using the tape on the canopy and moving it for each attempt.

It should lok really good with full deflection and 160kt entry speed...Haven't seen any video of an RV actually doing this...Groucho might beat me to it though...:)

Frank

(who is cooking dinner)
 
Just a quick point about DIY (do it yourself) acro training on a vertical line, a screwed up vertical line can be the textbook entry for an inverted flat spin. If you are comfortable with lots of different kinds of spins, get after it, but if you're not, some spin training would be good.

Also, the secret to holding a vertical line is in the elevator, more than the rudder. In a left hand roll, if the left wing appears to be climbing, push forward. I normally look at the left wingtip in acro but in a left vertical roll, I like to look at the right wing. Dunno why, it just seems more logical to be able to see the horizon coming to the wing instead of appearing from behind it.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
 
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Para what?..:)

Nope,

I have tried a number of times to get the RV7 to spin inverted and it sort of does it but its not easy, it will flip itself upright with the slightest excuse.

In fact i will probably try to get into one from a botched hammerhead because the half loop is not enough persuasion to get a good stall from the inverted.

As to flat spins (upright and inverted) yes I am very comfortable in the recovery teqnique. One thing about Steve Wolf's training is that he make's sure you are competent in recovering from anyway you can botch a manouver.

Actually his Zlin is very interesting in that it will spin flat...i.e the stick will snap into the full aft position after about 2 turns in an upright spin and you have to PUSH it forward to break the stall...Most bizarre.

With my forward CG there is no way it will flt spin...As shown in the attached link...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rK5DiNyEuzQ

Frank
 
Please Wear Parachutes

When doing aerobatics, it is prudent and required by law to wear a parachute.

As specified in FAR 91.307, an "approved parachute" is required by all occupants of the aircraft whenever the expected pitch and bank angles of an airplane will exceed 30 and 60 degrees respectively, except in the case of certain flight tests or spin training and other maneuvers given by certain instructors. Also, certain Supplemental Type Certificates (STC's) may also specify certain parachute requirements when an aircraft is to be flown with a door removed, or open as in the case of skydiving aircraft or aircraft used for photography or dropping cargo. An "approved parachute" refers to an assembly that has been manufactured under certain military specifications or under Technical Standard Order (TSO) C-23. To further define what is required of an emergency parachute, FAR 91.307 specifies that a parachute, in order to be made available for emergency use, must have been inspected and packed within a certain preceding time period by a FAA certificated and appropriately rated Parachute Rigger.
 
When doing aerobatics, it is prudent and required by law to wear a parachute.

John, pro-chute arguments aside, they're only REQUIRED if more than one occupant is in the plane. In that case, all occupants must wear chutes. No requirement for solo flying. FAA doesn't care if you kill yourself, only your passengers.
 
Beat me to it...And he did

Not perfect yet, but a whole better than mine....Keep at it Bryan..:)

Great fun, isn't it!? It's all in the elevator. It takes about 1/2 - 1" of forward stick to keep the nose pointed up for my -6. I have about an hour of video to edit down from that flight. Soon! Here's a link that works for a Franks note above...3 vertical roll tries from a flight this weekend (1/2 rolls really):

http://www.thedukes.org/rv/video/groucho_vertical_rolls.wmv

John, pro-chute arguments aside, they're only REQUIRED if more than one occupant is in the plane.
True. Parachutes are not required for a solo pilot. It would make getting to ground safely easier if a wing folded though. I don't wear a chute when I do solo acro either. (It might be a good birthday present to myself though.) I do almost all of my acro under 4.5g's & under Vans' aerobatic weight. Hopefully that's enough pad on the pad to keep things attached.

It's horrible on my steam gauge gyros though (anyone want an attitude indicator...slightly used?).

Have fun!
 
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Nice..

....and the horizon on the upper left of the screen stayed in one position...proving that you did a really good VR.

Regards,
 
Ya...

On the one hand I dong the "not worthy" wave on the other I know it can be done due to the efforts of my most excellent coach...:)

I always thought the VR was the most impressive looking manouver...Mind you watching the EXTRA 300 snap around three or four times is something to behold...The RV just doesn't roll fast enough to emulate that..:)

I can see me building a Pitts s1 here!

Frank
 
I always thought the VR was the most impressive looking manouver...Mind you watching the EXTRA 300 snap around three or four times is something to behold...
I can see me building a Pitts s1 here!

Build a One Design, quicker to build than a Pitts and better performance. Pretty much a mini Extra.

Pete
 
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