Competition Aerobatics WITHOUT Inverted Systems

If there was a category/sequence designed for aircraft without inverted systems (no negative G), would this increase your likelihood of getting involved with competition aerobatics?

I'm just trying to gauge the interest level, as that is what will ultimately need to be shown if real change is to be effected within IAC to broaden the membership base and help sustain and grow the sport. Those among IAC understand and are interested in the potential of the RV community, but not sure how much realistic interest exists among RVer's. As the sport is currently structured, it seems there is not much interest in competition. Would this change if sequences existed that were more friendly to RV's and non-inverted systems aircraft in general? I'm sure the IAC would love to hear from you either way. Change only happens when people make it.

Back to a question I'd still like to understand more completely - What is the main barrier, real or perceived, that prevents more from becoming involved in recreational or competition acro? Of course we're biased, but for those of us that do it, it's hard to understand why more wouldn't kill to experience that complete freedom in 3 dimensions.

I am planning to do Primary and maybe Sportsman this year. No inverted systems on my aircraft.

To answer your question more thoroughly...

My reservations are: Need of a parachute, need of more insurance, small box for a slippery low G airplane and lack of inverted systems.

I plan on building or buy a Pitts in the next few years so I'd like to at least do some basic stuff in the RV-4 before going to the next mount.

Hey Sid; next time you come to KLKR to fly with Bill Crothers, let me know. I have a 5,500 x 5,500 practice are box right next to the airport for my own practice....

Sid Lambert said:

I am planning to do Primary and maybe Sportsman this year....My reservations are: Need of a parachute, need of more insurance, small box for a slippery low G airplane and lack of inverted systems.

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Glad to hear it Sid! Yep, chutes are required at contests. You could likely borrow one for your flights, though. It may depend on your broker/underwriter, but you shouldn't necessarily need more insurance. My policy with EAA/Falcon was unaffected.

Don't worry about the box...it will always seem too small regardless of the plane you're flying ...especially starting out. You'll learn to make it work. RV's have a decent range of airspeed where aerobatics works. Take advantage of the speed where you need it, but limit it when you don't.

The Primary sequence for example - you don't want to enter the box at 220 mph before pulling for the 45 deg upline. Whether you draw a short line or a long one, you'll end up using a lot of box slowing down for the spin. Enter much slower. Consider the placement of the spin the key maneuver in this year's Primary. If you get it right, you shouldn't come close to going out of the box for the rest of the sequence. Remember, you only have to draw a perceptible line - the length and speed is up to you and will not influence your score for the maneuver. Staying in the box has much more to do with managing your position as required by the sequence, rather than anything to do with the airplane itself. You can draw a short line between maneuvers, or you can drive it across the box, bleeding speed if needed, for as long as you need to get in the right position for the next maneuver. About slowing down for spins...it's hard for the judges to spot a little climb. Sinking is much more obvious. You could use this to scrub speed a little faster.

Since you don't have inverted systems, remember that the shorter your total line on those half-rolling 45 up or downlines, the less obvious it will be if you cheat your inverted portion away from going negative. For example, to cheat positive the half cuban, you'd have to roll pretty soon after setting your 45 degree down. You don't want to draw a long downline after the roll upright, because it will only further show how off-center the roll was on the line.

About momentary loss of oil pressure - remember that even with inverted systems, there is a short period during the transition between positive and negative G's where your oil pressure drops off as the ball valve goes from one position to the other and oil pressure gets re-established. In the Primary and Sportsman categories that don't involve sustained negative G's, I think you could possibly fly the maneuvers to competition standards without sustaining an oil pressure drop of much, if any longer than what's already involved with inverted systems (technique dependent). Momentary fuel starvation doesn't hurt a thing and power will pick back up as soon as you re-establish positive G. Something to consider...I'm not advocating it. If uncomfortable with this, just cheat it positive. You'll get marked down down slightly, but who cares...it's competition experience and it's supposed to be about having fun anyway.

sandifer said:

...Back to a question I'd still like to understand more completely - What is the main barrier, real or perceived, that prevents more from becoming involved in recreational or competition acro? Of course we're biased, but for those of us that do it, it's hard to understand why more wouldn't kill to experience that complete freedom in 3 dimensions.

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For me, the emphasized word above is the answer.

I built my -8 with acro in mind -- it has a flop tube in one tank and a Raven inverted oil system. However, when it ended up taking 13 years for me to build the plane, things changed.

I used to belong to the IAC. Reading obits of fellow IACers in each month's magazine got pretty old. It drove home the well-worn adage that flying is very unforgiving of error.

I used to do a lot of really stupid human tricks in my old Yankee. Whether the result of the aging process or the accumulated years of wisdom, I no longer seek the thrills that flying upside down used to promise. As I grow more familiar with my new steed, maybe I'll change my mind. It DOES roll really nicely.

That's my answer to your question. I think I'd rather enjoy flying for many years to come than to overestimate my abilities and pay the ultimate price for my ignorance.

Don,

You're entitled to your opinions, but I'm not sure you received the point made in my last post of this thread www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=50727&page=2 since you are still referring to obits in the IAC magazine. With the exception that I noted, those refer to unfortunate accidents involving AIRSHOW pilots, who participate in a completely different sport from competition and recreational acro. I've been reading Sport Aerobatics for the past 5 years or so and am familiar with the content.

Do you ever fly the occasional loop and roll in your RV-8 at altitude? If so, then competition flying doesn't necessarily present any more risk. You really don't have to fly the airplane any harder than you want to in a contest. Aerobatics is like flying in general...it's relatively safe as long as you've received the proper training, use good judgement, and fly within your limits.

I'm not saying you're wrong for changing your flying mission after you completed your airplane, I'm just hoping to ease some misconceptions and have the sport perceived fairly.

Sorry for the duplication

Yes, Eric, it is just my opinion. That's what you asked for: "What is the main barrier, real or perceived, that prevents more from becoming involved in recreational or competition acro?" I was just answering your question with MY biggest reason. It's not everybody's biggest barrier, nor is it the only barrier. Just mine at this time.

I didn't realize that this was a variation of a different thread that you'd started some time ago. Sorry for the duplication of answer. Hey, at least I'm consistent. I said exactly the same things ... with a little more verbosity this time.

I'm just saying that time changes things and people sometimes. Some pilots just lose interest in the adrenaline rush of acro.

No intent to rain on your parade -- just answering your original question.

For me, I think the issue is training.

Not so much availability of appropriate training, although that is a consideration.

Cost, on the other hand, is probably my sticking point. I doubt anyone would want to teach from the back seat of a -4, and spending $150 / hour isn't within my near term reach.

But yes, I even bought the parachute a while back, and and some point I will get it done. Might have to wait until I finish the -6, but I'd love to see a program tailored to non-inverted capable RV's.

Get an hour (2 - 30 minute sessions) in an Extra. 30 minutes of spins of all kinds and 30 minutes of rolls and a few loops. That will keep you busy in the -4 for many months. The Extra flies closer to the RV than a Pitts or Citabria and I think you get more out of it.

I need to get some more training before mastering the hammerhead.

sandifer said:

What is the main barrier, real or perceived, that prevents more from becoming involved in recreational or competition acro? Of course we're biased, but for those of us that do it, it's hard to understand why more wouldn't kill to experience that complete freedom in 3 dimensions.

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Eric, I'd say many RV'ers already enjoy recreational acro, ie complete freedom in 3 dimensions.

Perhaps the real question revolves around developing an interest in competition acro. Recreational acro means flying when and where desired. Competition acro requires travel, time, and money. What does a person get in return for the additional investments? If it's all for fun, then why attend an IAC competition?

Dan, you're right...there's the ever-present joke among competitors that we spend $1000 on a weekend contest and if we do real well, we get to take home a $5 trophy. Yep, it sure ain't glamourous. Why attend? Because for most, they ARE fun. It's the pure personal challenge and satisfaction of seeing visible result of your hours of practice. It's also a great place to learn...and do a helluva lot of airplane talking. I'd say the average competitor only flies maybe 2 or 3 a year, depending on the locale. True, it's not for everyone. I guess competition acro is a bit of a cult...that we'd like to see increased and sustained.

Eric, this is one of those times...

...when I wonder if I should even chime in.

I do have an appreciation for those pilots that can perform aerobatics well. At one time, I even drove up to Farmville,Va to watch the IAC competition. I could watch for a few hours, watch the "same" routines, and then got board. Yes, I do confess to severe ADHD and phonic unawareness, but have been able to build and fly my RV-6A.

I am only interested in "old-man" aerobatics, being able to loop, roll, you know...some +G stuff. I have no interest in competing with my fellow aviators, I just want to do the occasional yank-n-bank and not kill myself or hurt the plane. I can see getting the required training, but again, I don't really care how good the other guy performs.

Yes, it is an attitude thing...

See you at the next chapter meeting...

What about oil loss?

sandifer said:

About momentary loss of oil pressure - remember that even with inverted systems, there is a short period during the transition between positive and negative G's where your oil pressure drops off as the ball valve goes from one position to the other and oil pressure gets re-established. In the Primary and Sportsman categories that don't involve sustained negative G's, I think you could possibly fly the maneuvers to competition standards without sustaining an oil pressure drop of much, if any longer than what's already involved with inverted systems (technique dependent). Momentary fuel starvation doesn't hurt a thing and power will pick back up as soon as you re-establish positive G. Something to consider...I'm not advocating it. If uncomfortable with this, just cheat it positive. You'll get marked down down slightly, but who cares...it's competition experience and it's supposed to be about having fun anyway.

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Don't forget to mention the loss of oil out the breather. It is very easy to dump two or three quarts of oil on your belly during one aerobatic routine. I have had great success with the Raven oil separator and wouldn't consider competition aerobatics with even momentary zero or negative "G" without it. That said, I encourage IAC to come up with positive "G" routines for the RV. It could be a lot of fun.

noelf said:

...when I wonder if I should even chime in.

I do have an appreciation for those pilots that can perform aerobatics well. At one time, I even drove up to Farmville,Va to watch the IAC competition. I could watch for a few hours, watch the "same" routines, and then got board. Yes, I do confess to severe ADHD and phonic unawareness, but have been able to build and fly my RV-6A.

I am only interested in "old-man" aerobatics, being able to loop, roll, you know...some +G stuff. I have no interest in competing with my fellow aviators, I just want to do the occasional yank-n-bank and not kill myself or hurt the plane. I can see getting the required training, but again, I don't really care how good the other guy performs.

Yes, it is an attitude thing...

See you at the next chapter meeting...

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Hey Noel, I understand about watching a contest. They're a lot like golf...kinda boring to watch, but much more enjoyable being involved and/or volunteering. Also like golf, you're really competing with yourself, and at the end of the weekend some just post higher scores than others. In my experience, there's no feeling that we're competing against each other. Most everybody WANTS you to have good flights, and they're glad to help with that. It's mostly the camaraderie, making new friends, and just a total weekend of selfish aviation immersion that brings us back. Sounds like you're enjoying your RV. See you at Bobby's.

I think having some seminars at the local practice area with a demonstration of a primary and sportsman sequence would be well received, especially if it was performed in an RV. I think most RV pilots might have some misconceptions about competition acro and a clear explanation of the process and how to get started would clear some of this up. I think a seminar should include someone knowledgeable on the Lycoming engine and its tolerance to acro would be a big help. My personal opinion is that IFR is more dangerous than acro done with proper training and preparation. I?m sure I?ll get a lot of flak for that statement but you can?t control the weather.

Some of you going through the ICAS license nigthmare in order to perform formation flying might have heard about Greg Koontz. Greg can sign your log book in order to be legal in formation flying while at airwhows....

Anyhow, Greg has a great article in the January 2010 IAC magazine, about his recent expereince in South Africa where he gave some unusual attitude training to a few guys. In that article Greg talks about the South Africans coming with a separate acrobatic known (routine) exclusevelly for RV's. They also created one called the Classic category for other non inverted aircraft including all kind of homebuilts. He further states that the concept is not new and questions how come is not bigger in the US. ...

I for a fact, travel a lot overseas with my business and see lots of RV owners performing acros in competitions and fly ins.

We at IAC19 have brainstormed with this idea for quite a while. We are opening ourselves to you the RV community to tell us what you want....we need your help to have an event designed for you....Maybe formation flying in teams might be one you would like to consider...We are open to you all.

We do understand that acrobatics competition, Smooth Awards flying, etc, etc... is not for everyone. We are calling onto those who want to do it, but dont have the mentor to guide you in....We are here for you. Lots of mambers would not oppose giving you a ride to test the waters...IAC 19 has its own web site which is easy to find if interested. Also, as a EAA member, you should be able to go into the IAC pages and explore a little about the sport. many other IAC chapters around the country....

As for the insurance requirements....my Pitts S2B 1984 model $80K+/- w/me 450+ hours PPL, 90TW TT, 60 in the Pitts = $2,100.....I got the Minimun IAC requierements which covers pretty well. As you can see very similar to others...

Invitation in open to all to come and join us....we usually start practicing starting March every 2nd saturday of the month and we are done by November. We are scheduled for KLKR in May so please mark your calendars if you care to join us.

Well, not exactly....

mv031161 said:

Some of you going through the ICAS license nigthmare in order to perform formation flying might have heard about Greg Koontz. Greg can sign your log book in order to be legal in formation flying while at airwhows....

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Greg Koontz is an Aerobatic Competency Evaluator (ACE). The Aerobatic Competency Evaluation (ACE) Program represents the establishment, within the air show industry to qualify civilian air show pilots to fly aerobatics at public air shows in the United States and Canada. The International Council of Air Shows (ICAS) oversees the ACE program. Greg does evaluate pilots for aerobatic competency and can recommend issuance of a Statement of Aerobatic Competency (SAC) card to worthy pilots. He is not qualified to issue a formation endorsement to the SAC card.

Pilots wishing to fly formation in waivered airspace should look into Formation Flying, Inc. (FFI) or Formation and Safety Team (FAST) as they are equipped to train and certify pilots for formation flight in waivered airspace.

And that's enough acronyms for one post... IMHO

Man oh Man

Mitch V.
Pitts S2B N324U "Yes. It is Orange"
Bill Crothers RV8 Hangar Roommate and New Formation Junkie

Boy Mitch, I don't know whether this gives you credence or not

And to keep from thread creep, the sportsman aerobatic routine in an RV8 is easy to do without inverted oil if you do cheat on positive side a little, and yes, you can really dump a lot of oil if you hamfist it..
A routine for RV's would draw quite a bit of attention I believe. I'm for it..

ronschreck said:

Greg Koontz is an Aerobatic Competency Evaluator (ACE). The Aerobatic Competency Evaluation (ACE) Program represents the establishment, within the air show industry to qualify civilian air show pilots to fly aerobatics at public air shows in the United States and Canada. The International Council of Air Shows (ICAS) oversees the ACE program. Greg does evaluate pilots for aerobatic competency and can recommend issuance of a Statement of Aerobatic Competency (SAC) card to worthy pilots. He is not qualified to issue a formation endorsement to the SAC card.

Pilots wishing to fly formation in waivered airspace should look into Formation Flying, Inc. (FFI) or Formation and Safety Team (FAST) as they are equipped to train and certify pilots for formation flight in waivered airspace.

And that's enough acronyms for one post... IMHO

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Hey Ron....thanks for the clarification!

RV8iator said:

Mitch V.
Pitts S2B N324U "Yes. It is Orange"
Bill Crothers RV8 Hangar Roommate and New Formation Junkie

Boy Mitch, I don't know whether this gives you credence or not

And to keep from thread creep, the sportsman aerobatic routine in an RV8 is easy to do without inverted oil if you do cheat on positive side a little, and yes, you can really dump a lot of oil if you hamfist it..
A routine for RV's would draw quite a bit of attention I believe. I'm for it..

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LOL...Bill already warned me about you....Come on over! we'll take care of you. just don't bring a C130 with you........ I'll let you ride the front hole in my Pitts if you want!

mv031161 said:

LOL...Bill already warned me about you....Come on over! we'll take care of you. just don't bring a C130 with you........ I'll let you ride the front hole in my Pitts if you want!

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Aw Mitch! Me too, me too! How come Widget gets all the fun. I wanna play.

ronschreck said:

Aw Mitch! Me too, me too! How come Widget gets all the fun. I wanna play.

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Ron, he already told me I'm too fat for a ride!

FAT

If he puts me in the front seat of a Pitts it will be competition aerobatics..
just to see if it will get over the top..

Having been a long time member of the IAC and owning a Christen Eagle II before I got my RV-8. (I like my RV-8 better - by the way). The RV's are great platforms for Aerobatics. As far back as August 2007 the IAC had an article in "Sport Aerobatics" about RV Aerobatics and "an Untapped Market".

The IAC has been struggling for years to preserve and increase it's membership. Mostly due to a perception, that they were only about "Competition". The recently deceased President of IAC, Vicky Cruise was working very had to change that perception and get people to realize the "other" charter of the IAC - is the promotion of Aerobatic Safety, Education and Grass-roots Acro (Along with competition). I had a conversation with her in 2008 and she invited me to display my RV-8 in front of the IAC Tent at Sun & Fun 2008. The intent was to promote RV Aerobatics and to create awareness and interest in the "NEW" - DESIGN TWO Category, being set-up specifically for the RV type aircraft. I believe it was the Fall of 2008, when the Houston IAC Chapter, hosted the first Design Two competition for RV's.

My point being - one of the GREAT things about the RV's is the COMMUNITY we have and the wide variety of activities we do. From our LOE Fly-In's, to Formation, CAFE Racing, Aerobatics and more.
The IAC is trying to get our attention and as such we have a unique opportunity to get involved at the ground level, to help shape RV Aerobatics and RV Aerobatic Competitions. Especially the members of VAF.

I urge you to contact the IAC and lets get involved in shaping the future of RV Aerobatics.

Ok,Ok - I'm getting off my soap-box. But think about it and thanks for listening.

CRUMB

Doug Crumrine said:

Having been a long time member of the IAC and owning a Christen Eagle II before I got my RV-8. (I like my RV-8 better - by the way). The RV's are great platforms for Aerobatics. As far back as August 2007 the IAC had an article in "Sport Aerobatics" about RV Aerobatics and "an Untapped Market".

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Hey, small world... I wrote that article in Sport Aerobatics.

I did so because I believed (and still believe) that IAC and the RV community have a natural synergy.

RVs represent -- by far -- the largest aerobatic-capable fleet of GA airplanes in the country. All the Pitts, Extras, Citabrias, Decathlons, Sukhois, Yaks, and Eagles put together still fall far short of the number of flying RVs out there. They're turning out at the rate of, what, about 2 new first flights per day on average? Compare that to the Aviat factory, where they might build three or four new Pitts S-2Cs per *year*.

The RV was made for aerobatics. It is a true sport plane and despite some cautions, it is quite capable of flying Primary and Sportsman level competition aerobatics, as well as a plethora of purely recreational figures.

It may be that most RV pilots are just not interested in competition. And that's perfectly fine. Competitive aerobatics isn't everyone's cup of tea. But there's a whole other world of aerobatics out there, ranging from the occasional aileron roll or loop to the benefits of unusual attitude training.

One of the things I love about the RV series is that they are great for so many applications. Long distance XC flight. Aerobatics. Formation. Just hanging around the pattern. Low-and-slow sightseeing. Even transporting stuff. I was always amazed at what Dan Checkoway would fit into that RV-7 of his...

I've been flying recreational acro since 1998 and competition since 2006. I teach at a large aerobatic flight school. I'm an Advanced competitior, National judge, coach, and instructor, and firmly believe that when performed at a safe altitude by a properly trained pilot, aerobatics are quite safe in RVs.

I wouldn't recommend tumbling or snap rolling them. The airfoil isn't particularly well suited to inverted figures. But I've done more than a few phase one aerobatic test flights and think the world of the RV line. The last one I did was for an RV-8 and I spun it up to 8 turns left and right, both accelerated and flattened, and it performed nicely in all respects. I don't expect the owner will ever wring it out like that himself, but it's nice to know the airplane has been well tested.

It will take a while, but hopefully in time the IAC community will have the same affinity for the RV that I do. And vice versa.

P.S. If you'd like to read the article I wrote for Sport Aerobatics, it's available on my web site at:

http://www.rapp.org/archives/2007/03/rv_aerobatics/

Ron Rapp
Pitts S-2B

Ron Shreck: Yes! You are in by default...You are still IAC19 right? how is that Lycoming manual working for you? Are you metting Bill in salisbury today for some formation flying? I was supposed to accompany him, but I have to make a living!!! Tuff times!!!

Bill Repucci: that was funny! Sorry dude...I tried! this might be a good motivational reason to go easy on the "MANYA" (remember I am bigger than you
)
Widget; achmmm (clearing my throat) how much you weight and how tall are you?

Doug: Thanks for the positive post!!

Ron Rapp: thanks for the link!

Safety in aerobatics; LOE acro box

As regards the issue of aerobatics and safety: No safer a medium than a properly set up aerobatic box, especially with the prescribed floor limits for the various levels of competition. There is a recently commisioned aerobatic box at Dona Ana County airport, home of the LOE event. The local IAC chapter there would certainly welcome any RV pilots who may show interest in using it. If enough people are interested, perhaps some smooth awards could be made.
Tom Navar
IAC Chapter 122, El Paso, TX
RV8QB (kit sold)
Pitts S2A

mv031161 said:

Ron Shreck: Yes! You are in by default...You are still IAC19 right? how is that Lycoming manual working for you? Are you metting Bill in salisbury today for some formation flying? I was supposed to accompany him, but I have to make a living!!! Tuff times!!!

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Whoopeee! I haven't been in a Pitts for over 40 years! I suppose they have changed some, huh?
Yep, met Bill and three others yesterday for a couple of 5-ship flights. (I could see the rust falling off of Bill!) Three headed for home as the sun dipped low and Tad Sargent and I did about 30 minutes of formation aerobatics. Fun stuff.
Thanks for getting me all pumped up again. Just renewed my IAC membership and sent Brian my IAC19 dues.

ronschreck said:

Whoopeee! I haven't been in a Pitts for over 40 years! I suppose they have changed some, huh?
Yep, met Bill and three others yesterday for a couple of 5-ship flights. (I could see the rust falling off of Bill!) Three headed for home as the sun dipped low and Tad Sargent and I did about 30 minutes of formation aerobatics. Fun stuff.
Thanks for getting me all pumped up again. Just renewed my IAC membership and sent Brian my IAC19 dues.

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Tuesdays, Thursdays Fridays in the Afternoon and off course the weekends are good for me weather permiting....always lloking for an excuse to get out, so let me know.

I was bummed yesterday afternoon...I could not get the flying bug off my head!!!!...I even had a NOTAM issued for KLKR from 1 to 3 pm for some acro practice and then the plan was to fly with you guys at KRUQ....my day went to **** at 11.30 am and it snowballed from there....I end up working until 9 pm last night......Seems to me that that catchy statement "Work hard to play harder" is starting to slip!!!!

We at IAC19 want to do this RV thing. Eric, myself and a few others are spearheading this thing to see where it goes and we need to report. We can't do it alone...we need folks like you who want to participate and learn about the sport. Eric is contactin IAC25 in Houston to see if we can get a copy of the routine used Hopefully Ron Rapp can help us there.

see you soon



Let me know..