KatieB
Well Known Member
This quote should be inscribed on the EAA Memorial Wall.
Van's Air Force
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When do you walk away? Or do you!
- Thread starter Allan Stern
- Start date
This quote should be inscribed on the EAA Memorial Wall.
flion
Well Known Member
LOL @ aerhed.
And to Larry, I pretty much agree. My helmet injured me but it has also prevented injury. Experience is the key. But nothing makes my eyes roll like a person with a full-face helmet wearing shorts, t-shirt, and sneakers or flip-flops while riding. I think the aviation equivalent may be the person who flies somewhere for a quick stop (lunch or whatever) and then departs without doing a pre-flight or run-up because 'it was fine an hour ago'.
And to Larry, I pretty much agree. My helmet injured me but it has also prevented injury. Experience is the key. But nothing makes my eyes roll like a person with a full-face helmet wearing shorts, t-shirt, and sneakers or flip-flops while riding. I think the aviation equivalent may be the person who flies somewhere for a quick stop (lunch or whatever) and then departs without doing a pre-flight or run-up because 'it was fine an hour ago'.
Danny King
Well Known Member
To Fly or Not to Fly
I hope this is the last time this tread shows up. I feel it's out of place here.
A fighter pilot once said this about a pilot's last flight:
You will walk out to the plane and know it is your last flight, (OR)
You will walk out to the plane and not know it is your last flight.
Either way, I plan to enjoy my passion for flight until that day arrives for me!
I hope this is the last time this tread shows up. I feel it's out of place here.
A fighter pilot once said this about a pilot's last flight:
You will walk out to the plane and know it is your last flight, (OR)
You will walk out to the plane and not know it is your last flight.
Either way, I plan to enjoy my passion for flight until that day arrives for me!
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Bubblehead
Well Known Member
All good posts and interesting and a little philosophy is not a bad thing.
I'd like to amplify the term "risk" a little because it is a little vague and subjective. I prefer to think of risk as a combination of:
the consequences of an event
the likelihood of the event
By minimizing both we minimize total risk. We can minimize the consequences with safety equipment and perhaps protective clothing, ELT, PLB, flight following, survival gear etc.
We can minimize the likelihood by good construction, ensuring sufficient fuel, weather briefing and understanding, making sure you always have an option, good design, redundancy, currency, recurrent training, having the proper mental attitude etc.
Both lists are meant as food for thought, not as all inclusive.
I'd like to amplify the term "risk" a little because it is a little vague and subjective. I prefer to think of risk as a combination of:
the consequences of an event
the likelihood of the event
By minimizing both we minimize total risk. We can minimize the consequences with safety equipment and perhaps protective clothing, ELT, PLB, flight following, survival gear etc.
We can minimize the likelihood by good construction, ensuring sufficient fuel, weather briefing and understanding, making sure you always have an option, good design, redundancy, currency, recurrent training, having the proper mental attitude etc.
Both lists are meant as food for thought, not as all inclusive.
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
LOL @ aerhed.
And to Larry, I pretty much agree. My helmet injured me but it has also prevented injury.
So basically, our helmets did injury, prevented farther injury........and we both knocked our nose wheels under. Cool.........
I looked up, your mishap yesterday. Good to see your engine survived. I hope mine does too. It still idled. My prop is bent more (about 4"), but the mount and firewall still look normal.
L.Adamson --- RV6 nose or tail.....at this point
Jimboscr
Well Known Member
helmet and leathers
I agree with the wearing of a helmet. My dad use to call those not wearing one "Temporary Australians". That was a long time ago, wearing a crash helmet on a bike is now compulsory. (That includes a bicycle too)
I agree on the leathers too. A friend of mine came off his bike without leathers. Looked like he had had a fight with a belt sander!
When I had my motorbike accident (seems to me that just about everyone on this site has a motorbike story) The helmet saved my brain as I slid along the ground on my back with my head bouncing up and down on the bitumen. But I soon stopped. When my head hit the curb! The leathers were ruined, but my skin wasn't and apart from the dislocated shoulder (boy they hurt) I walked away from it.
This bike discussion goes along with what has been said on this thread. Be prepared and you minimise the risk of a disaster.
Cheers
Jim
I agree with the wearing of a helmet. My dad use to call those not wearing one "Temporary Australians". That was a long time ago, wearing a crash helmet on a bike is now compulsory. (That includes a bicycle too)
I agree on the leathers too. A friend of mine came off his bike without leathers. Looked like he had had a fight with a belt sander!
When I had my motorbike accident (seems to me that just about everyone on this site has a motorbike story) The helmet saved my brain as I slid along the ground on my back with my head bouncing up and down on the bitumen. But I soon stopped. When my head hit the curb! The leathers were ruined, but my skin wasn't and apart from the dislocated shoulder (boy they hurt) I walked away from it.
This bike discussion goes along with what has been said on this thread. Be prepared and you minimise the risk of a disaster.
Cheers
Jim
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Risk
Risk, its assessment and mitigation is a science all of its own. Let you give me an example from my company, a major international carrier.
- A request is received from a major airport for a display from one of our aircraft. After careful assessment, 2 ex-military display pilots are tasked with planning and flying the display. It is practiced in the simulator and air and supervised throughout by management. The display goes off flawlessly. Result - 2 pilots satisfied with a job well done, kudos for the company and 10,000 happy spectators
- On a delivery flight, a management pilot, with no display experience, decides to do a flypast on departure. He beats up the airfield at 75' and max speed with 30 company personnel down the back. Result - one pilot fired, one disciplined, a FAA investigation and embarassing video on YouTube
In both cases, the risk was the same - a display in a large twin-jet. But it was managed in totally diffferent ways with totally different results and totally different levels of danger. That illustrates the difference between the two - danger results from unmanaged risk.
To manage a risk, you have to recognize it. In the second case, the pilot didn't have the background to recognize how risky his manoeuvre was. I have lots of military and large civil experience but little GA time. I was talking to a GA pilot who was telling me how careful he was and then proceeded to relate tales of things he routinely did which made my hair curl!
Few accidents are the result of one thing. At any stage, the chain can be broken. In the experimental world, there is less chance to break that chain because the builder, maintainer and pilot are generally the same person. So if he lacks the experience or correct attitude, then any error is much more likely to get through.
As to the original question - "When do you walk away?". I believe that, statistically, you can go your whole flying career without an accident. So if you have one, you can maybe count yourself unlucky. If you have had two or more, I'd say that aviation probably isn't for you.......
Risk, its assessment and mitigation is a science all of its own. Let you give me an example from my company, a major international carrier.
- A request is received from a major airport for a display from one of our aircraft. After careful assessment, 2 ex-military display pilots are tasked with planning and flying the display. It is practiced in the simulator and air and supervised throughout by management. The display goes off flawlessly. Result - 2 pilots satisfied with a job well done, kudos for the company and 10,000 happy spectators
- On a delivery flight, a management pilot, with no display experience, decides to do a flypast on departure. He beats up the airfield at 75' and max speed with 30 company personnel down the back. Result - one pilot fired, one disciplined, a FAA investigation and embarassing video on YouTube
In both cases, the risk was the same - a display in a large twin-jet. But it was managed in totally diffferent ways with totally different results and totally different levels of danger. That illustrates the difference between the two - danger results from unmanaged risk.
To manage a risk, you have to recognize it. In the second case, the pilot didn't have the background to recognize how risky his manoeuvre was. I have lots of military and large civil experience but little GA time. I was talking to a GA pilot who was telling me how careful he was and then proceeded to relate tales of things he routinely did which made my hair curl!
Few accidents are the result of one thing. At any stage, the chain can be broken. In the experimental world, there is less chance to break that chain because the builder, maintainer and pilot are generally the same person. So if he lacks the experience or correct attitude, then any error is much more likely to get through.
As to the original question - "When do you walk away?". I believe that, statistically, you can go your whole flying career without an accident. So if you have one, you can maybe count yourself unlucky. If you have had two or more, I'd say that aviation probably isn't for you.......
kens_cockpit
Well Known Member
Friends who have given up
First I think this is a legitimate discussion. Thanks to the professor who started it.
Second, it took me only a moment to think of 5 friends of mine who have been licensed pilots who gave up flying. The reasons varied. Some common factors seemed to be that they decided they didn't operate well in the cockpit. They felt they weren't wired the right way to function safely in the cockpit so they pulled the pin. Admirable really. Other reasons were money and time and basically the desire and enjoyment left. That's not been my experience to date but who knows about the future.
Third, three of those friends now ride pushbikes on the road and in the bush. Also risky.
Fourth, I reflect on the only engine failure I have had so far. The 40 hour engine in a Decathlon stopped during the first half turn in a spin. Couldn't get it restarted in the glide (the aeroplane was still flying...at least it was after I recovered from the spin...interestingly on that point the first thing I was taught to do when the engine failed was to raise the nose to gain height and reduce speed to best glide speed then lower the nose to maintain best glide speed...on this occasion I had to lower the nose and lose height to nail the best glide speed) and landed in a paddock which was available, I like to think, because of risk management; flying where there is plenty of vacant land to put down in. I am now even more diligent in checking the idle during the pre take off checks...but I still go flying.
Fifth, I remember going over the bonnet of a car which apeared in front of me as I rode my pushbike. As my I felt my head scraping along the ground I thought, "Gee. I'm glad I'm wearing my helmet." I don't think I'ld be doing much of anything today if I wasn't.
Not all of those five items are entirely RV related or directly on the point of this thread. Just wanted to join the interesting conversation. Sometimes stories are as good as formulae.
First I think this is a legitimate discussion. Thanks to the professor who started it.
Second, it took me only a moment to think of 5 friends of mine who have been licensed pilots who gave up flying. The reasons varied. Some common factors seemed to be that they decided they didn't operate well in the cockpit. They felt they weren't wired the right way to function safely in the cockpit so they pulled the pin. Admirable really. Other reasons were money and time and basically the desire and enjoyment left. That's not been my experience to date but who knows about the future.
Third, three of those friends now ride pushbikes on the road and in the bush. Also risky.
Fourth, I reflect on the only engine failure I have had so far. The 40 hour engine in a Decathlon stopped during the first half turn in a spin. Couldn't get it restarted in the glide (the aeroplane was still flying...at least it was after I recovered from the spin...interestingly on that point the first thing I was taught to do when the engine failed was to raise the nose to gain height and reduce speed to best glide speed then lower the nose to maintain best glide speed...on this occasion I had to lower the nose and lose height to nail the best glide speed) and landed in a paddock which was available, I like to think, because of risk management; flying where there is plenty of vacant land to put down in. I am now even more diligent in checking the idle during the pre take off checks...but I still go flying.
Fifth, I remember going over the bonnet of a car which apeared in front of me as I rode my pushbike. As my I felt my head scraping along the ground I thought, "Gee. I'm glad I'm wearing my helmet." I don't think I'ld be doing much of anything today if I wasn't.
Not all of those five items are entirely RV related or directly on the point of this thread. Just wanted to join the interesting conversation. Sometimes stories are as good as formulae.
dmaib
Well Known Member
I followed this thread for the first day or two and then moved on. I am surprised today to see it still alive. Dr. Stern, I think you answered the question for yourself, when you said you were allowing yourself one bad experience, and then you would quit.
That seems to be the general consensus. When the reward is not worth the risk, most people will quit the risky activity, whatever it is.
another $.02 worth.
n5lp
fugio ergo sum
So everyone won't have to look it up, like I had to. Pushbike=Bicycle.
kens_cockpit
Well Known Member
Hmmm. Sorry about that. The joys of different dialects of "English".
Nomenclature aside I think there is an interesting relationship between riding a bicycle and flying a plane...or perhaps even between repairing bicycles and building aircraft...witness the Wright brothers.
