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Proper technique for flush rivet set with rubber shroud?

nohoflyer

Well Known Member
Patron
I recently bought the flush rivet set that has the swivel and rubber shroud to keep it from moving. So far I don’t know the proper way to use it. The actual set doesn’t seem to want to be flush to the skin unless I use a ton of force on it as the rubber shroud seems to press it away. Most of my rivets end of being drilled out because they turn out very proud.

Any suggestions cause I’ve gone back to the stock set for now.
 
Never got it to work

I never got mine to work. I did use a swivel with no rubber shroud on a few, but the swivel set seemed to take a lot of air pressure and the rivets were not as good for me.

In my early days, i did use doubled sided tape from Hobby Lobby to help keep the gun from sliding. That worked ok. But now i just use a piece of kapton tape Or rivet tape, to keep from marring the skin. JMHO YMMV
 
Mine stays in the drawer, flat set and proper turndown on the regulator works better. The Cleaveland flat set has a bit of convex in it, so it can do a very good job of ensuring rivets are set nice and flush or actually just under flush is perfect with nicely set dimples.

I've read most shave some of the rubber off, but I didn't even do that and just worked with the turned down gun so I could control. If you can't control the gun, turn it down more. You'll get used to it and be able to turn up a little, but you don't need full pressure at all.
 
I never got the rubber cup type flush set to work either. I actually threw it away. There are others that swear by them.
 
Grinding

I removed material from the rubber shroud until the rivet set and the rubber made contact at the same time. That way I do not have to compress the shroud to get the rivet set in contact with the skin. The shroud doesn’t look pretty but it works. Also my rubber set does not swivel, I have a separate swivel set that doesn’t have the shroud.

I have also used tape either over the rivet or over the rivet set. It seems to reduce slipping. Vans sells a rivet tape product, others have recommended gorilla tape. You can experiment and see what works for you.
 
You have to shave down the rubber so the face of the rivet set is closer to the skin surface.

I took a couple layers of blue painters tape and put them on the face of the rivet set. Then I took some sand paper and rubbed the face of the rivet set on the sandpaper, slowly sanding down the rubber ring. When the sand paper just started to touch the painters tape, I stopped. Mine has driven a lot of rivets without issue.

The advantage of the swivel set is you're less likely to mar the skin. The disadvantage is it doesn't work well on curved skins, like the leading edges and such.

As usual, YMMV.
 
I'm in the chucked it in the garbage group. Had much better luck with a standard flush set, Cleveland was my primary but have several others from??
 
Sand the Rubber Shroud

I'm in the sand down the rubber shroud camp. I had the same issues at first and didn't use it, until a friend suggested sanding down the rubber. Made all the difference.
 
I can't believe so many people tossed theirs to the bin, I wish I was around to pick them up as that is my to go for flush set.

With a razer blade, cut a 45 degree bevel on the inside edge of the rubber. This will reduce the force needed for riveting. And till you get really use to it and have a lot of control, you will need to hold the cup with the other hand/fingers so it won't walk on you. But this can save you some smiles that is easy to get with a straight flush set.
 
I also did not have good luck with the swivel set. Found it took two hands to use so required a second person to buck. I cut and sanded the rubber as recommended but still did not work well. I used a simple mushroom set like this. https://www.cleavelandtool.com/products/1-mushroom-set?_pos=7&_sid=db3389f92&_ss=r

Cleveland tool says this:

We don't generally recommend the sets with the rubber ring. The pressure applied to overcome the tension of the rubber, and get the set up against the Aluminum is high. This pressure will end up making a dent in the skin if the bucker does not push back equally as hard, or slips off. All of this pressure makes it harder to keep the bar on the rivet. Instead we recommend using the steel set only, pinching it between the thumb and index finger while just touching the Aluminum. This keeps the set from sliding and no pressure needs applied. The bucker simply needs to keep the set against the rivet, and when pulling the trigger the rivet will seem to melt beneath it.


Also says:

The metal only set is also shaped like a 'mushroom' so that the polished steel only contacts the rivet with about 3/8" diameter area. The rubber ringed sets do not allow you to see where the rivet is, so the sets are very flat hitting the skin in with about a 1" diameter area and spreading the rivet gun force in to the skin. With the increased pressure from the hand this is asking for skin deformation.


I did 99% of my riveting alone and had the best success with the flush mushroom set.
 
Flush set

Modify the rubber. Mine has built two airplanes. Lots of guest Rosy Riveters. It works
 
I did this with a leather punch to make it "softer".
 

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Yea why it doesn’t come modified or “shorter” is weird. You’d have thought they would have gotten some feedback at this point.

I stopped using it. Maybe I’ll try to cut it or maybe it’s not worth my time.
 
This.
Many airplanes built here.
Swivel sets, rubber cups or not, just create poor habits or a false sense of security.
I’ve never seen one in a pro sheet metal shop.
For 99.9% of all rivets (not back riveted) on an RV this will give the best result if used properly





I also did not have good luck with the swivel set. Found it took two hands to use so required a second person to buck. I cut and sanded the rubber as recommended but still did not work well. I used a simple mushroom set like this. https://www.cleavelandtool.com/products/1-mushroom-set?_pos=7&_sid=db3389f92&_ss=r

Cleveland tool says this:

We don't generally recommend the sets with the rubber ring. The pressure applied to overcome the tension of the rubber, and get the set up against the Aluminum is high. This pressure will end up making a dent in the skin if the bucker does not push back equally as hard, or slips off. All of this pressure makes it harder to keep the bar on the rivet. Instead we recommend using the steel set only, pinching it between the thumb and index finger while just touching the Aluminum. This keeps the set from sliding and no pressure needs applied. The bucker simply needs to keep the set against the rivet, and when pulling the trigger the rivet will seem to melt beneath it.


Also says:

The metal only set is also shaped like a 'mushroom' so that the polished steel only contacts the rivet with about 3/8" diameter area. The rubber ringed sets do not allow you to see where the rivet is, so the sets are very flat hitting the skin in with about a 1" diameter area and spreading the rivet gun force in to the skin. With the increased pressure from the hand this is asking for skin deformation.


I did 99% of my riveting alone and had the best success with the flush mushroom set.
 
Just shave the rubber off until it’s almost flush with the face. Mine has around 1 mm sitting above the sides of the face….but the face is convex so the rivet sets perfectly flat and the rubber just stops it sliding around….here is my HS and the swivel set is used exclusively apart from the squeezed edges. They work exceedingly well at ensuring you don’t get smileys as the set is always flat to the work. Take it out of the drawer, modify it and you will love it….I won’t use anything else…p.s….I use the scotchbrite blue tape changed regularly on the swivel set face….
 

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I did this with a leather punch to make it "softer".

great idea! I shaved mine down a bit, but (since I didn't do it evenly) I had to build up one side with RTV. Thankfully, it held throughout my -14A project. But, I like your idea better, and if there is a next build, will be adopting it.

_Alex
 
Moresushi
Sand the Rubber Shroud
I'm in the sand down the rubber shroud camp. I had the same issues at first and didn't use it, until a friend suggested sanding down the rubber. Made all the difference.

wirejock
Flush set
Modify the rubber. Mine has built two airplanes. Lots of guest Rosy Riveters. It works

swift12
Just shave the rubber off until it’s almost flush with the face. Mine has around 1 mm sitting above the sides of the face….but the face is convex so the rivet sets perfectly flat and the rubber just stops it sliding around….here is my HS and the swivel set is used exclusively apart from the squeezed edges. They work exceedingly well at ensuring you don’t get smileys as the set is always flat to the work. Take it out of the drawer, modify it and you will love it….I won’t use anything else…p.s….I use the scotchbrite blue tape changed regularly on the swivel set face….

I did the same thing years ago. Just put the rubber portion on a 6" disc sander and took it down to about .050. Works great and haven't had any issues with flush riveting since.

Try this...after taking the rubber down to roughly .050, put it on your "pre construction project" (like the control surface most of us built) or something similar. Don't use backing and put the mushroom between the ribs and pull the trigger....insane right? Try it...you'll be surprised.

At least it worked very well for me. Flush skins, no dents, doesn't "dish" fragile areas.
 
Sounds like another addition to the never ending debate list!

I think with all tools, we have our preferences. Had I known the tricks to modify the rubber set, errrr, 25 year ago, Yikes!, perhaps mine would have stayed in play. I learned to use Clevelands mushroom set and never looked back.

I also have never seen a rubber set in a pro shop. That isn't to say it is a bad tool. Sounds like with the mods it works great. I might dig mine out and play with it, if I can find it.
 
Shave the rubber flush with the surface of the set. You will never get a good pre-load on the rivet for the bucking bar to set against if you have any gap at all.

This is a good tool other than that. The small swivel give some forgiveness if your technique isn't 100% square to the surface.
 
Anybody have a source for a replacement rubber cup? I think the the rubber on mine has hardened over time just like the rest of us curmudgeons.
 
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Saddened to hear.....

That so many people gave up on the swivel head rivet set, and then today to hear that Cleveland tool has stopped carrying it.

Here is why I think that is a mistake -

I have had, and used one for 30+ years. In my 26+ years at Van's Aircraft I have always recommended it to new builders. People have heard it be recommended during the building tips forums that Van's Aircraft has given at Oshkosh.

Many say it is a solution looking for a problem, or, if you cant learn to rivet with a traditional rivet set maybe you shouldn't be (lots of egos in airplane building :rolleyes:)
Give me a couple of minutes to explain why I think it should be in every builders tool box.

Lets first start with what it does -

Consider it an insurance policy.
It allows an inexperienced builder (or riveting helper); to right from the very first rivet they set, to have a safety net that pretty much 100% will prevent skin dents that are caused by a misaligned rivet gun when using a traditional mushroom rivet set. (Note I said "caused by a misaligned rivet gun"... many skin dents are caused by bucking bars... that is a totally different issue, but is still relevant to this discussion...I'll get to that in a minute).
This is especially true as a new builder begins to solo rivet increasingly difficult rivets that require a long arm reach with the gun and the bucking bar. Controlling both the gun and the bucking bar when at maximum arm reach can be difficult enough for someone with a lot of experience, but a disaster just waiting to happen for someone less experienced.

As riveting gets more difficult, or maybe the small percentage of the time where it is just plain impossible to do solo, a builder gets a helper involved. More times than not, this ends up being someone with little to no experience.
The natural thing is for the builder to decide that they will operate the gun (because that is the thing that can cause all of the damage, right?), so they give the bucking duties to the helper. This often times involves someone totally new to the process, needing to learn to work totally blind and by feel only. This is another recipe for disaster because a slipped bucking bar can do far more damage than a tilted rivet gun can.

So what are its benefits?

It is pretty much 100% insurance against skin dents caused by a misaligned rivet gun. That is what makes it beneficial to everyone regardless of their level of experience (everyone has a bad day every once in a while). Even with 35+ years of experience riveting on light aircraft structures, I still use one. Particularly any time I have much of a reach while holding the gun.

It allows for teaching just about anyone to be a riveting helper.
Show them how to center the rivet set on the rivet while pushing moderately against the skin, rest the palm of there non trigger hand on the skin and grasp the rubber cup of the rivet set between the thumb and index finger, and check the alignment of the gun using the reflection in the skin (though as already discussed, all they need to be is close), and be able to activate the trigger for a consistent 3 seconds each time (musicians are generally very good at this because they have developed a good sens of time/rhythm). This leaves all of the critical work to the bucker.

How is it suppose to work?
There is a ball joint in the rivet set that allows the flat face to pivot so that the face of the set can always stay flush against the skin, even if the rivet gun is not aligned perfectly. The rubber cup exists to induce some friction / grip on the skin so that if the gun is tilted slightly, the small amount of lateral force vector wont cause the rivet set to start scooting across the skin surface. Having an inexperienced helper grasp the rubber cup is an additional amount of insurance that that wont happen.

So why doesn't it work?
For reasons unknown (to me at least), even though it was a very creative design idea, the cup has always been sized such that it required far too much pressure on the gun to get the rubber to fully compress and allow the face of the rivet set to remain flush with the skin surface and rivet head.
No matter... it only takes about 90 seconds and a disk sander to modify it so that it works perfectly.

How to modify the tool
I didn't take the time to make a dimensioned drawing, but the photos should provide the extra detail needed.

You basically just remove material from the end of the rubber cup using a sanding disk.
The change doesn't need to be super precise, but what I have found works very well (besides mine I have modified quite a few of these for other builders), is to sand the outside corner of the rubber cup at about a 45 degree angle until the thickness of the cup has been reduced to about 1/3rd it original thickness (you could mark a thin pen line of where you want to stop if you feel the need).

That is it!

Doing this will reduce the thickness of the cup at the end by enough that it will become much more compressible so that the typical amount of pressure applied to the gun will be more than enough to keep the face of the rivet set flush against the skin, but there will still be some grip from the cup to keep it from sliding.

Hopefully other suppliers will continue to carry it (or maybe Mike at Cleveland Tool will see this post and decide to continue to do so Mike, feel free to contact me if you would like to discuss anything about it)

The close up photo of my tool below is an attempt to show with lines what the original unmodified shape of the cup was compared to what its modified shape currently is. Note that the very end of the cup is now only about 1/3rd as wide as it originally was, and the tapper in thickness is at about a 45 degree angle. Make yours look like this and it will work perfectly.

If a moderator thinks it would be of value, could someone sticky a copy of this post to the Tools section of the forum so others might be able to find it in the future?
 

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That's a great explanation of the much needed modification. I am one of the many that gave up on the tool. I shortened as many suggested but never heard until now about putting the 45 degree angle on it until today.
Definitely should be a sticky.
 
I also did not have good luck with the swivel set. Found it took two hands to use so required a second person to buck. I cut and sanded the rubber as recommended but still did not work well. I used a simple mushroom set like this. https://www.cleavelandtool.com/products/1-mushroom-set?_pos=7&_sid=db3389f92&_ss=r

Cleveland tool says this:

We don't generally recommend the sets with the rubber ring. The pressure applied to overcome the tension of the rubber, and get the set up against the Aluminum is high. This pressure will end up making a dent in the skin if the bucker does not push back equally as hard, or slips off. All of this pressure makes it harder to keep the bar on the rivet. Instead we recommend using the steel set only, pinching it between the thumb and index finger while just touching the Aluminum. This keeps the set from sliding and no pressure needs applied. The bucker simply needs to keep the set against the rivet, and when pulling the trigger the rivet will seem to melt beneath it.


Also says:

The metal only set is also shaped like a 'mushroom' so that the polished steel only contacts the rivet with about 3/8" diameter area. The rubber ringed sets do not allow you to see where the rivet is, so the sets are very flat hitting the skin in with about a 1" diameter area and spreading the rivet gun force in to the skin. With the increased pressure from the hand this is asking for skin deformation.


I did 99% of my riveting alone and had the best success with the flush mushroom set.

I remember the catalog back around 2001 had different wording. "Recommended by some people, but not by us." :*)
 
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