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Mogas without an STC..

T

Tram

Well Known Member
Maybe someone who has been down this road can help me out.

Ok, so I'm just starting to research running Mogas in our 6.

We've got an experimental O-320 in the bird and from what I'm reading, with an experimental aircraft/engine there is no STC needed?

Is this correct?
 
Tram said:
Maybe someone who has been down this road can help me out.

Ok, so I'm just starting to research running Mogas in our 6.

We've got an experimental O-320 in the bird and from what I'm reading, with an experimental aircraft/engine there is no STC needed?

Is this correct?
Click to expand...

No STC required. You are correct.
 
Mogas

I've been using 100LL in one tank and Ethanol free high octane gas in the other from day one, 850 hrs. now. I use 100LL in one because on take off sometimes you'll get hesitation on gas. So from day one I use 100LL on take off and landing and switch to the cheap gas while flying. Thank is just my experience and a few of my friends also, other have done different.

You can goto: http://www.pure-gas.org/ or download the Pure gas app to find Ethanol free gas near you.

You will save a lot of money, well you'll still spend it, but on upgrades instead of fuel :)

Make Stein happy, spend till your broke :)
 
Just do your research.

The STC's, which do not apply to our aircraft, do not approve using auto fuel with any ethanol.

Some people are using it but there are some risks. It is one of those never ending debates. Use the search function, there are a LOT of comments on the subject.

With the price of 100Ll.com dropping like a Led Zeppelin, it may be false economics to use auto fuel.
 
An STC is a Supplemental Type Certificate. It is a piece of documentation that is in addition to (supplements) an existing type certificate for a specific aircraft. A Type Certificate doesn't exist for any experimental aircraft and you can't supplement a certificate that does not exist. So an STC does not apply to your RV6.

:cool:
 
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rockwoodrv9 said:
Not to hijack, but to get the fuel to your plane you need a transfer tank. I just found this one that is certified for gas. Most are not. Does anyone have any info on this or another source? My idea is to get two of the tanks and put them on a small trailer. Any ideas?

http://www.tank-depot.com/productdetails.aspx?part=ATI-TTR110
Click to expand...

:p

15027374048_f47df1c083_b.jpg
 
Tram said:
Maybe someone who has been down this road can help me out.

Ok, so I'm just starting to research running Mogas in our 6.

We've got an experimental O-320 in the bird and from what I'm reading, with an experimental aircraft/engine there is no STC needed?

Is this correct?
Click to expand...

Is your 0320 the 150 or 160hp? Maybe someone more knowledgeable on this will chime in but from what I gather, Mogas is ok in the 150hp but not the higher compressed 160. Too low of an octane?
 
N941WR said:
With the price of 100Ll.com dropping like a Led Zeppelin, it may be false economics to use auto fuel.
Click to expand...

When premium, no ethanol mogas is just over $2/gallon cheaper than 100LL, I'm not sure I understand your point. The delta, at least around here, is larger than it's ever been ($2.15/gal vs. $4.19/gal).
 
Premium mogas has been just fine in my 160 hp engine for over a decade.

To add to Tram's post: I also use plastic cans, because I'm not flying enough to justify setting up a trailer with tanks. If I did, I'm way too cheap to pay $600 for a gas can. :) I'd pick up a couple of empty drums, paint red bands on them, & that would be that.

Charlie
 
Tram said:
:p

15027374048_f47df1c083_b.jpg
Click to expand...

That is what I hope to avoid. I have that many 5g tanks, but I wanted something that I can just pull to the station, then back to my hangar - or house. I hope to be flying this spring-summer and plan to use auto fuel when I can. I have other uses for the fuel too - ATV, boats, motorcycles, and my autos.
 
ChiefPilot said:
When premium, no ethanol mogas is just over $2/gallon cheaper than 100LL, I'm not sure I understand your point. The delta, at least around here, is larger than it's ever been ($2.15/gal vs. $4.19/gal).
Click to expand...

I'm with you. Self serve is $4.45 here currently. Mogas is $1.69..

rockwoodrv9 said:
That is what I hope to avoid. I have that many 5g tanks, but I wanted something that I can just pull to the station, then back to my hangar - or house. I hope to be flying this spring-summer and plan to use auto fuel when I can.
Click to expand...

If I put a tank in the truck, it'd have to be something that could come in and out with very little effort. I've got a short bed to be begin with and couldn't live with a fuel tank back there.
 
I plan to put it on a cheap homedepot or HF trailer. I figure I can get the whole thing set up for 100g, trailer, pump, and filter, for about $1400. It will take a while to pay for itself, but the convenience is worth the cost to me. Having an emergency supply of fuel is a bonus.
 
rockwoodrv9 said:
I plan to put it on a cheap homedepot or HF trailer. I figure I can get the whole thing set up for 100g, trailer, pump, and filter, for about $1400. It will take a while to pay for itself, but the convenience is worth the cost to me. Having an emergency supply of fuel is a bonus.
Click to expand...

I was just thinking about that, but I don't know how my airport management would feel about it.

I'll still be running 1 wing 100LL though, so you'd think it'd keep them happy.
 
At my airport, the fire department pokes their nose in every 6 months (leased hangars from the county). You're only allowed to have 10 gallons of containers in the hangar, no more, even if they are empty. I did an annual recently where I needed to drain 25 gallons and still had the empty containers in the hangar and I had to go pick them up right away.

Every place is different, but do be careful that you don't spend a lot for a setup that you can't use if you get caught. Also consider what your liability might be if there ever was a fire and you had 50-100 gallons of fuel in your hangar when your lease said no fuel.

Some people that run LOP find 100LL and Mogas run enough differently that they don't like to switch back and forth, so consider that on cross-country trips.
 
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Our local airport does not allow storing more than 5 gal in hangars, exclusive of the airplane. And most states have rules about transporting more than a certain amount of gas on publc highways.
edit. We have the 'empty counts as full' rule, too.
 
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rockwoodrv9 said:
That is what I hope to avoid. I have that many 5g tanks, but I wanted something that I can just pull to the station, then back to my hangar - or house. I hope to be flying this spring-summer and plan to use auto fuel when I can. I have other uses for the fuel too - ATV, boats, motorcycles, and my autos.
Click to expand...

Hey rockwoodrv9a,

Did you know we have ethanol free MOGAS at the Nampa Airport? Payette also has it at the pump. I used to fly up there and fuel before Nampa brought it in this summer.

Are you guys using mogas only using ethanol free gas? What octane? Our Costco gas here contains ethanol.

Mike
 
BobTurner said:
Our local airport does not allow storing more than 5 gal in hangars, exclusive of the airplane. And most states have rules about transporting more than a certain amount of gas on publc highways.
edit. We have the 'empty counts as full' rule, too.
Click to expand...

Alabama used to allow you as many 5 gal containers as you could fill up and get in your truck.

The DOT requires training when the container is over 8 gallons.
 
Mogas STC

Tram,
You do not need a STC if you want to use mogas.
This does not absolve you of your responsibility to make sure that your engine will be happy with mogas.
For starters, you need to know what the compression ratio is on your engine.
Any ratio below 8:5 to 1 appears to do well for people running mogas.
A cool running fuel system is required to keep your vapor lock issues in check.
An injected system is in your favor due to higher fuel pressure and the much lower threshold for the potential onset of vapor lock.

Running 100LL in one tank and mogas in the other is a very good way to test
your system before you go all out on mogas only.

Mogas with or without ethanol works well for hundreds of users.

Price difference is significant, today's price at CCR for 100LL 4.90 vs 2.20 for
91Octane E10. There is almost always a $2 spread and don't think cheap gas is back for good.

Before you invest in a fuel transport set up, consider 5 gal cans.
Fill up 3 or 4 to top off your tank and store none of the auto fuel in your hangar. You want mogas to be as fresh as it can be and besides as many
have pointed out, storing gas in your hangar may be frowned upon by authorities.
A 5 gallon can empties into your tank in less than 1 minute even through a filter/funnel and is easy to lift.

Lastly, take advice from people with lots of mogas experience.
You can look forward to a cleaner running engine without lead contamination and deposits on your spark plugs :)
 
N427EF said:
For starters, you need to know what the compression ratio is on your engine.
Any ratio below 8:5 to 1 appears to do well for people running mogas.
A cool running fuel system is required to keep your vapor lock issues in check.
Click to expand...

We are at 7.0:1. O-320B1B.

N427EF said:
Running 100LL in one tank and mogas in the other is a very good way to test
your system before you go all out on mogas only.
Click to expand...

That's the plan. :)

N427EF said:
Before you invest in a fuel transport set up, consider 5 gal cans.
Fill up 3 or 4 to top off your tank and store none of the auto fuel in your hangar. You want mogas to be as fresh as it can be and besides as many
have pointed out, storing gas in your hangar may be frowned upon by authorities
Click to expand...

Yeh, we aren't allowed any cans in the hangar per our lease.


N427EF said:
Lastly, take advice from people with lots of mogas experience.
You can look forward to a cleaner running engine without lead contamination and deposits on your spark plugs :)
Click to expand...

That's why I'm here. :)

Thanks for the help.
 
No STC needed. Your 0320 should be real happy on car gas.
Just be certain that the fuel contains no ethanol.
I have a 6A. I used to use regular but it now contains ethanol, at least where I live, so I have to use super unleaded. Works great.
if you are still building the plane put in a vapor return line.

As far as gas cans in the hanger, you should never store gasoline or empty cans in a building.

Go to the local bulk fuel supplier and buy a drum of gas. Put a hand pump on it and reuse the drum. You get a little exercise but it only takes a couple of minutes to fill an RV size tank, and it does not require any power.

Be sure to attach a ground wire.
 
Guys: This is not intended to hijack the thread, but one more price advantage to using mogas is that some states rebate the road tax. You may have to jump thru some hoops, but may be worth it. For example, here in NV the rebate is 32 cents per gallon. Dan from Reno
 
ChiefPilot said:
When premium, no ethanol mogas is just over $2/gallon cheaper than 100LL, I'm not sure I understand your point. The delta, at least around here, is larger than it's ever been ($2.15/gal vs. $4.19/gal).
Click to expand...

$1.83/gal for premium vs. $3.57 for 100LL.

The difference based on 100 hrs/yr at 7.3 gal/HR is $1,270.20.

Buying a trailer, tank, hose, etc., going to the gas station, storing the trailer / tank etc. is not worth that perceived savings to me. I am not commenting on the mogas vs. avgas debate.

I did pull my neighbor's trailer / tank to top it off and have never been so scared of driving anything in my life. If I were to tanker fuel, I would go buy an old small pickup and bolt a tank to its bed, raising the cost even more.
 
N941WR said:
$1.83/gal for premium vs. $3.57 for 100LL.

The difference based on 100 hrs/yr at 7.3 gal/HR is $1,270.20.

Buying a trailer, tank, hose, etc., going to the gas station, storing the trailer / tank etc. is not worth that perceived savings to me. I am not commenting on the mogas vs. avgas debate.

I did pull my neighbor's trailer / tank to top it off and have never been so scared of driving anything in my life. If I were to tanker fuel, I would go buy an old small pickup and bolt a tank to its bed, raising the cost even more.
Click to expand...

Everyone situation is going to be a bit different.

I'm looking at $1.6X vs $4.4X locally...

I won't be buying a trailer, tank, hose, etc. I can typically get by on 20 gallons per flight, so I'll be doing 5g cans.

I pass the MoGas station on the way to the airport, so that's a moot point. Time picking up the fuel is the same as walking the plane to fuel pumps, etc.
 
I used to do the trailer thing

with a 120 gallon rectangular tank filled to 90 gallons to reduce sloshing losses, and buy the ethanol-free 91 octane at the station 20 miles down the road, then use an electric transfer pump to transfer it to the larger tanks I have inside the pole shed (hangar). Then I discovered the farmer's co-op sells the same product at the same price and delivers it for free. No more gas-hauling down the highway for me, as long as the 91-octane pure gas is offered at the co-op.

-Stormy
 
John Owen said:
You might look at this option which the Beechcraft folks have used. I don't have any first hand information but this is usually a good source.

http://csobeech.com/FuelTransferSystem.html

Cheers,
John
Click to expand...

That's a pretty good idea.

You know if you were to get a 55g drum bung welded onto it, you could take a FastFlo pump and instead of using a DC pump that does 1g per minute, you get get 8g per minute.

I may have to consider something like that.
 
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