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Rivet in a bad spot.

jswareiv

Well Known Member
This is the Center Bottom Skin where the Aft Gear Brace Assembly attaches. I was trying to figure out how to get to this rivet. Unless you bend the flange out of the way, there really isn't a way. Spoke to Van's and the engineers are going to change the sequence of steps here. So if you haven't gotten to this part yet, check with them to see how it is going to be changed. I think they are going to recommend to rivet this before attaching the seat rib angle, but they will let us know. Good luck and Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.

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It also looks (it's hard to tell from the angle, though), like you may be able to take a little off of the corner of that flange above it without losing edge distance for that rivet. Maybe just enough to get a screwdriver head above the shank and set it that way.
 
Remove three rivets securing flange. Shoot rivet. Install three rivets securing flange.
 
Rivet Placement

+1 Absolutely! - and keep moving. It won't be the last time.

One of the issues with removing those three rivets is #1 getting a drill down there close enough to the last one without scarring the skin and the second problem, Van's is very particular about that angle being exactly 90°. You set the top rivet, slightly, then check for 90°. Final drill to #30 the other two holes. Check again, if needing to adjust, drill again. Trying to get those three rivets out, at that angle, without messing up the skin or enlarging the holes, I don't know about that. I did try a screw driver on the other one, but the result I got - I'd rather have the pop rivet.

Van's option for me is to use a CR3212-4-2 rivet (instead of a CS4-4), which I have ordered and intend to use. No one will notice the two pop rivets under my plane and if they do, they better be cleaning the oil off the belly!
 
Drilling out those 3 rivets should be no problem with an angle drill.
You don't drill all the way through. Just enough to snap off the head.
 
This is a potential problem that was discovered during the fuselage kit development, and was thought to have been resolved by proper build sequence (but obviously wasn't).

A revision of the plans will be done that will delay the riveting of the upright.
My recommendation would be to remove the upright angle. I don't think you will be able to insert the cherry rivet far enough to set it.

Any builder not yet at this point should delay riveting the upright angle to the lateral, until after riveting to the skin.
 
Remove three rivets securing flange. Shoot rivet. Install three rivets securing flange.

That's fine but van's has you take several steps to install this part 90 degrees in previous steps. Removing it now would make those task valueless . By the description it sounds like this is a crucial structure so I did not drill it out. I shaved a hair off the rivet and pre squeezed it to the point it would just fit into it's hole and used the blade of a large screwdriver and set the rivet by hitting the screwdriver with the gun as suggested above. Pain but worked.
 
By the description it sounds like this is a crucial structure so I did not drill it out.

That's good, because the proper technique for removing a rivet does not including "drilling it out" (at least not in the traditional sense that most people are thinking of).
 
You still need a drill and a drill bit, I call that drilling out a rivet. First you drill with a bit the size of the rivet, close to the material being riveted together, thru manufactured head,(stop before reaching the piece being riveted) then you break off that head. Then using a little smaller bit , drill into the center of the shank to a point past the material being riveted but not all the way, this takes the stress out of the rivet and you carefully pull on the shop head removing the remainder.
Still sounds like drilling to me.
 
That's good, because the proper technique for removing a rivet does not including "drilling it out" (at least not in the traditional sense that most people are thinking of).

For that matter, shooting a rivet does not involve a rifle. Let's not start one of those threads.
I know its called a rivet gun.
Unlikely you will get a cherry in there, the mandrel is probably going to hit the upright preventing full insertion of the cherry.
 
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Poor use of words on my part apparently.... to a lot of people, when they say drill out a rivet, they mean it literally.

Ron made it sound like he didn't feel like it was safe to remove these rivets. All I meant was that done properly, it is no more of an issue than most others (but everyone needs to make that decision on there own).

Ron is right... the instructions are very specific.... but the specifics will be changed to correct this minor glitch so then there will be new specifics that will describe the assembly order differently.

My comment was out of concern that others would think they could set an 1/8 " rivet satisfactorily with the tip of a screw driver as a bucking bar. I have been doing this type of work for a long time... I know that the results will not be good.
 
I sent Van's a note on this a week or more ago but got no reply. So I bought some Cherry rivets that I plan to use for that spot. Being that they used AN426AD4 sized rivets, I wasn't going to trust it to a CS4-4.
Tim
 
I got to this spot today, and have a suggested method.
Set up and drill the uprights on the bench, 90 degrees as per plans
Rivet the outboard uprights in place but not the inner ones; that have the bad rivet location.
Now back-rivet the piece to the skin as per instructions.
Now it is quite easy to verify the 90 degrees for the inner uprights and rivet them in place. A back up check is to make sure the upright arms are parallel
and you can simply measure top and bottom to do that.
This method also makes it easier to back rivet the part to the skin without the inner uprights in the way.

Sorry about the sideways picture!

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Forget that rivet, place one each side of it mid way between those already there. Will only work if there is enough edge distance.
 
Rivet in bab spot

That rivet is the least of your problems. When you try to put the 1483 on, you will find the same hole that you used on the stiffer are used. You will be drilling out those 40 rivets .

Sam Butler
RV-6a
RV-7
RV-7a
RV-10
RV-12
RV-14a building
 
That rivet is the least of your problems. When you try to put the 1483 on, you will find the same hole that you used on the stiffer are used. You will be drilling out those 40 rivets .

Are you talking about the rivets in the doubler?

5ywbon.jpg


I mated my bottom skins together over the weekend and they were all correct per the plans. The rivets on the doubler slide under the lip on the bulkhead. Everything fit fine without having to drill out or re-use rivets. I am building the taildragger, so not sure if it is different on the nose dragger.
 
Rivet in a bad spot

The nut plate would not be a problem for the taildrager, but the stiffner is the same.
The holes in the 1483 r-l use the same #30 holes as the stiffner used on the 1484. The plans don't call for these skins to be mated until after the firewall section. Also, the rivets at the top of the 1483 and 1484 be be under the bulkhead at that point.
Sounds like you went ahead and skipped ahead and mated the skins now. That may be the fix vans come up with.

Sam
 
I am not sure what the issue is here? I am building a tail dragger and all the parts riveted together just fine. I have placed the forward bottom skins against the aft of spar bottom skins and everything lines up properly.
All the floor ribs fit around these parts ok as well.
 
The holes in the 1483 r-l use the same #30 holes as the stiffner used on the 1484. The plans don't call for these skins to be mated until after the firewall section. Also, the rivets at the top of the 1483 and 1484 be be under the bulkhead at that point.
Sounds like you went ahead and skipped ahead and mated the skins now. That may be the fix vans come up with.

Sam

Actually they don't get attached using the same holes as are used for the F-01443 Doubler (what I assume you are calling a stiffener?).

The aft ears on the F-01483 skins do lap over the F-01484 skins in this area but there are no rivet holes common to the doublers... they cover the rivets previously installed to attach the doublers.
There is a specific purpose it was designed this way....
 
Still Confused

I am not sure what the issue is here? I am building a tail dragger and all the parts riveted together just fine. I have placed the forward bottom skins against the aft of spar bottom skins and everything lines up properly.
All the floor ribs fit around these parts ok as well.

Yes, Sam, I still don't understand where the issue is. I didn't skip ahead, so I don't see where the issue is, hence, no need for a fix. My skins went together without a hitch. Of course I had an experienced builder helping me again.

I am curious however, about using those CherryMax rivets in those holes in the middle of that extension on the forward skins, especially because they are not countersunk. Those holes weren't dimpled for a CS, but not sure why you wouldn't have dimpled the holes and use some sort of CS rivets in that area. That may cut 1/10 MPH off my ship!:)
 
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I am curious however, about using those blind rivets in those holes in the middle of that extension on the forward skins, especially because they are not countersunk. Those holes weren't dimpled for a CS, but not sure why you wouldn't have dimpled the holes and use some sort of CS rivets in that area.

Done that way for a specific design reason.
 
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Rivet in a bad spot

Ok, ya'll made me doubt myself. I went and looked at the parts and every hole in the 1483 matches a hole in the 1484. If you rivet the doubled on as called for in the plans, those 20 holes each side will already have rivets and the 1483 will have holes. Scott you say it was designed this and i can't argue, but the 1483, 1484 and the doubler all share the same holes and would be joined together
and that doesn't happen until later in the plans. At that point 10 of the holes would be under the bulkhead.
 
On drawing 26-11, step 10 is says to rivet the doublers to the skin using AN426 rivets.
This is talking about the 11 rivets on the front edge of doubler, and the 9 rivets on the back edge of the doubler that match up with holes previously dimpled on the belly skin (and previously machine countersunk in the doubler, for the dimples).
The F-01483 fwd bottom skins are not supplied with prepunched holes that match up to these holes. They only have holes that match up with the 12 holes in the center of the doubler which don't get riveted ( the Cherrymax rivets Stoney was writing about previously) until later in the build, after the fwd bottom skins are in place.
 
Rivet in a bad spot

My 1483 has the same holes as the doubler and 1484. If they didn't come that way, someone must have broke into the hanger and drilled them (that's my story and i'm sticking to it).
I will have to complete the firewall section and mate it to the skin before installing the bulkhead.
Build on!!!
 
Here is a picture of the area in question. The doubler is riveted on the top of the aft bottom sheet. The shop heads nestle in the space between the skin and the spar carry through. It is not a great picture but you can see the faint line that show where the forward bottom skin will over lap this area

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My 1483 has the same holes as the doubler and 1484. If they didn't come that way, someone must have broke into the hanger and drilled them (that's my story and i'm sticking to it).
I will have to complete the firewall section and mate it to the skin before installing the bulkhead.
Build on!!!

Just to double check, I inspected all of the F-01483 skins on the shelf and they all only have the 5/32 holes that are common with the doubler.
 
There are a couple rivets on the 8 wing kit like this. Used a skinny screw driver to get on the shop head as the bucking bar . I also tapered the rivet to allow the screw driver to fit squarely on top . Pried against the interfering structure to create the down force. Had a square shop head when done.
 
Riveting sequence.

Scott plans still haven't been changed to rectify riveting sequence. Worked fine setting up braces parallel then riveting on after bracket secured to belly skin.
A squeezer reached the inboard 3 rivets without issue.
 
Riveting sequence.

Belay the last pipe. I just checked the revisions and the sequence has been amended.
Apologies.
 
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