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Some Thoughts on Tires & Brakes?

Piper J3

Well Known Member
I fly from a private grass strip in northern Ohio. Needless to say, not much flying in the winter months. So, the spring ritual is to look over the machine really good while I wait for the ground to firm up. Even though I'm based on a grass strip, almost all my flying is from hard surface runways.

Brakes are as important as flight controls for airplanes with free-castering nosewheel. Loss of a brake pretty much means deviating from the runway and having a bad day. Original brakes were replaced at 80TT. Now my second set of linings is due for replacement at 415TT. I think the second set of linings lasted longer because the disc was conditioned by the first set of linings, at least that?s my theory. The brakes pulsate and it has bothered me from day one. The discs are soft steel and get scored-up something awful. I have decided to order new Matco discs and will have Master Chrome in Cleveland, OH hard chrome plate them before use. Master Chrome does hard chrome plating for Cleveland Wheel so I should a good result. The hard chrome surface should stay smooth and eliminate pulsation.

The original tires supplied by Vans lasted 200 hours. The outside edges got scalloped and worn to the thread. I installed Desser 500-5 6 PLY RTO Retread, Elite Premium 2 Groove. At 415TT I?m very happy with these tires. The tread shape has substantially more rubber on the outside edges providing excellent wear. I?m going to rotate tires L-R because right side tire is showing slightly more edge wear. My plan is to run the tires until end of flying season and then I will disassemble the wheels and flip the tires so fresh edge is to the outside. It looks like I should be able to get 600 hours on these tires by remounting them on the wheels when the outside edge is sufficiently worn.

 
I think Matco will Nickel plate your brake discs for $51 each. I'm not sure what that's supposed to do for you.
 
I did communicate with Matco and I?m aware that they offer electroless nickel plating as an option. Electroless nickel plating is primarily used for corrosion resistance and does not have the wear characteristic that chrome provides.

As a data point, I owned a J3-Cub for 23 years that had a STC for Cleveland disc brakes. I hard-chromed the discs when new and they were perfect when I sold the plane three years ago. Not exactly apples-apples because brakes on a Cub are really an afterthought. Once the discs polish up to bright finish they should remain smooth for a long time.
 
Pulsating brakes is usually a sign of warped rotors due to overheating, or the discs being worn so thin as to be out of specifications for being usable.

Remarkable amount of hours between first set of pads and second set.
 
I fly from a private grass strip in northern Ohio. Needless to say, not much flying in the winter months. So, the spring ritual is to look over the machine really good while I wait for the ground to firm up. Even though I'm based on a grass strip, almost all my flying is from hard surface runways.

Brakes are as important as flight controls for airplanes with free-castering nosewheel. Loss of a brake pretty much means deviating from the runway and having a bad day. Original brakes were replaced at 80TT. Now my second set of linings is due for replacement at 415TT. I think the second set of linings lasted longer because the disc was conditioned by the first set of linings, at least that?s my theory. The brakes pulsate and it has bothered me from day one. The discs are soft steel and get scored-up something awful. I have decided to order new Matco discs and will have Master Chrome in Cleveland, OH hard chrome plate them before use. Master Chrome does hard chrome plating for Cleveland Wheel so I should a good result. The hard chrome surface should stay smooth and eliminate pulsation.

The original tires supplied by Vans lasted 200 hours. The outside edges got scalloped and worn to the thread. I installed Desser 500-5 6 PLY RTO Retread, Elite Premium 2 Groove. At 415TT I?m very happy with these tires. The tread shape has substantially more rubber on the outside edges providing excellent wear. I?m going to rotate tires L-R because right side tire is showing slightly more edge wear. My plan is to run the tires until end of flying season and then I will disassemble the wheels and flip the tires so fresh edge is to the outside. It looks like I should be able to get 600 hours on these tires by remounting them on the wheels when the outside edge is sufficiently worn.


Other than keying tire maintenance off of tread wear, how does one factor health of sidewalls into a decision to replace? Seems like they are taking on some of the load too!

Thanks Doug
 
It?s the landings...

As long as your sidewalls are not exhibiting cracks, your tires are probably fine.

You can retread tire casings several times - tires that are many years old can still be retreaded as long as they meet the criteria - which, BTW, is pretty rigorous, even compared to new tires, so I wouldn’t worry much about the sidewall - as long as it’s not physically damaged.

Although you’ve talked in terms of hours, the real wear on tires is landings, although hours of sitting in the sun will degrade them too. I got 233 landings on my original kit (Aero Classic) tires before I flipped them inside-out on the rim and got another 200 landings, running them down until my finger nail could no longer hook on the outer most siping. But retreads change that dramatically.

I’ve used Desser retreads for years on my Baron, but on the RV-12, I’ve been using Wilkerson retreads, mostly because 500-5 6-ply retreads are often out of stock with Desser. The folks at Wilkerson are wonderful, great service, quick shipping, and at $60 per tire - I’ll run them as long as I can get them.

But in spite of the lower cost of tires for retreads, the real advantage is different tread and sidewall rubber. Tire manufacturers walk a line between having the rubber so hard that the sidewall is too stiff or then going too soft making for faster tread wear.

The Wilkerson 500-5 6 ply retreaded Air Hawks I recently received have 8/32 of rubber tread depth, but it’s a hard rubber - harder than the sidewall. And that’s the big advantage to a retread, because the sidewall can still be softer, pliable and shock absorbing, but the newly added tread can be a much harder composition, giving you the best of both worlds.
 
I checked my logs and my main tires were replaced at 440 hrs (Left) and 550 hrs (right) my nose wheel tire shows very little wear at 840 hrs. I replace my brake pads every other year which works out to about every 125 hrs. That usually leaves a little of the wear notch left, and I could probably go another year, but I don?t want to risk getting into the rivets and possibly scoring the rotor.

I operate off a paved runway and my average flight is about 1.5 hrs. I don?t do touch and goes routinely, so I probably average about 100 landings per year.

Hope that data point helps.
 
As long as your sidewalls are not exhibiting cracks, your tires are probably fine.

You can retread tire casings several times - tires that are many years old can still be retreaded as long as they meet the criteria - which, BTW, is pretty rigorous, even compared to new tires, so I wouldn’t worry much about the sidewall - as long as it’s not physically damaged.

Although you’ve talked in terms of hours, the real wear on tires is landings, although hours of sitting in the sun will degrade them too. I got 233 landings on my original kit (Aero Classic) tires before I flipped them inside-out on the rim and got another 200 landings, running them down until my finger nail could no longer hook on the outer most siping. But retreads change that dramatically.

I’ve used Desser retreads for years on my Baron, but on the RV-12, I’ve been using Wilkerson retreads, mostly because 500-5 6-ply retreads are often out of stock with Desser. The folks at Wilkerson are wonderful, great service, quick shipping, and at $60 per tire - I’ll run them as long as I can get them.

But in spite of the lower cost of tires for retreads, the real advantage is different tread and sidewall rubber. Tire manufacturers walk a line between having the rubber so hard that the sidewall is too stiff or then going too soft making for faster tread wear.

The Wilkerson 500-5 6 ply retreaded Air Hawks I recently received have 8/32 of rubber tread depth, but it’s a hard rubber - harder than the sidewall. And that’s the big advantage to a retread, because the sidewall can still be softer, pliable and shock absorbing, but the newly added tread can be a much harder composition, giving you the best of both worlds.

I never considered that "retreaded tread" could be harder rubber than sidewall. Might explain why tires are wearing so well. I thought it was my superior airmanship skills... :D

I just rec'd email from [email protected] as follows: Qty 2 500-5/6 retreaded Air Hawks for $60.00 each. Ground freight included.
 
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RV-12 Tubes and Tires

I have a 2015 RV-12 SLSA and I've never ordered tubes and tires but my original are looking pretty sorry. My mechanic said I should just order tubes and tires myself and bring them in for our appointment on August 13th.

From what I read here it sounds like RV-12 owners prefer Desser 500-5 6 ply RTO Retreads Elite Premium tires or Wilkerson 500-5-6 ply retreaded Air Hawks. However when I type a search into the Desser site the only ones that come up are 500-5 MICHELIN AIRSTOP INNER TUBE (092-308-0) at $119 each? More than the tire. What am I missing here? Do I need these expensive tubes that cost more than the tires?
 
Just a point of reference... I have a Honda motor scooter (108cc, 9.7 hp, max speed 45 mph) that wears tires like crazy. Odometer shows 15,000 and I?m now on 4th rear tire and 2nd front tire. I?ve been searching internet and find that small tire size has exponentially faster wear with some guys only getting 3,000 miles per tire change.

I thought this was interesting and maybe helps explain short tire life on our airplanes. My first set of main tires on the RV-12 only lasted 200 hours.

Rear tire with 4,100 miles -


 
Just bought a 2012 RV-12. Had 171 hours on it, now 192 with a total of 10 landings, 4 of them mine as a student. No greasers, yet. :eek:

The right main is worn more on the outside than the left main, which looks to be just fine.

I will rotate the tires on the rims this go round, inspect the brake pads, and in general get a bunch of electrical gremlin squawks with Dynon sensors, connections, and wiring sorted out, before I take more lessons.
 
Just a point of reference... I have a Honda motor scooter (108cc, 9.7 hp, max speed 45 mph) that wears tires like crazy. Odometer shows 15,000 and I?m now on 4th rear tire and 2nd front tire. I?ve been searching internet and find that small tire size has exponentially faster wear with some guys only getting 3,000 miles per tire change.

I thought this was interesting and maybe helps explain short tire life on our airplanes. My first set of main tires on the RV-12 only lasted 200 hours.

Rear tire with 4,100 miles -



I have no direct knowledge of this but I had a friend who was into motorcycles. He told me bike tires had a softer rubber compound and wore out more quickly because of that. He said he typically got 3,000 - 4,000 miles on his tires. Maybe the same for scooters?
 
I'll be looking into some Dressers.

They are right down the road from me here in Los Angeles, if I want a little drive, to save on some shipping.
 
Desser tires are shipped FREE! No need to dodge the 18 wheelers on the LA freeways.
 
Pretty sure Desser re-threads have harder rubber compound for thread than carcass / sidewall. Re-threading always different choice for rubber because it is a secondary operation.

I do know that Desser rethreads wear very good and are balanced well.
 
Pretty sure Desser re-threads have harder rubber compound for thread than carcass / sidewall. Re-threading always different choice for rubber because it is a secondary operation.

I do know that Desser rethreads wear very good and are balanced well.

Otter correct, right?
 
I have no direct knowledge of this but I had a friend who was into motorcycles. He told me bike tires had a softer rubber compound and wore out more quickly because of that. He said he typically got 3,000 - 4,000 miles on his tires. Maybe the same for scooters?

You're friend was correct. Some brands are softer so they grip the road better while others are harder and are more "slippery" than others but last a longer time before wearing out.
 
The Desser retreads appear to be a good tire. Before buying them you should consider the weight difference. They are considerably heavier than the Aero Classics as I recall. Several years ago Desser offered a great deal on them and several buddies and I bought them. We wound up selling them at Kosh because of the weight difference.
 
The Desser retreads appear to be a good tire. Before buying them you should consider the weight difference. They are considerably heavier than the Aero Classics as I recall. Several years ago Desser offered a great deal on them and several buddies and I bought them. We wound up selling them at Kosh because of the weight difference.

Wish I would have been there - I would have bought them. I just installed 2nd set of RETREAD ELITE PREMIUM 2 GROOVE (ELITE). First set lasted almost 300 hrs and I didn't even bother to flip them on the rims. They may be a heavier than original tires - just limit passenger size. You don't tell passenger to empty their pockets...
 
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