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How much Proseal for the Rudder trailing edge? Sealant gun worth it?

CubedRoot

Well Known Member
I am about to begin final assembly on the rudder, and that means the infamous trailing edge wedge / riveting / gluing procedure.

I am going to go ahead and get an order to Vans for some Proseal, but wasn't sure about the quantity I need to order.

From the Vans website: http://vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1484671499-170-210&browse=misc&product=proseal

It looks like the 3.5 ounce kit is enough to do the trailing edge, but I'm wondering if that will leave me with enough left to dab a little of it on the end of the stiffeners as well?

I am also looking at buying the Sealant Gun than Vans sells to make this messy job a little easier:
http://vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1484671499-170-210&browse=tools&product=sealant-gun

Do any of you have any experience with this thing? It looks like a mini caulk gun. Is it worth it?

Thanks!
 
I just did my rv-10 rudder with the cartridge. There was WAY more proseal in there than you need for the rudder, its kind of a big waste.

If I did it again, I'd get the smaller one.

However if you do end up with the cartridge, I thought it was plenty easy to push out by hand. Maybe longer jobs down the road on the wings would make it worthwhile. Also I think they make a drill adapter for turning the knob while mixing. That part kinda sucks, I would get the adaptor for sure if you do a cartridge.
 
Just finished the trailing edge on my -14. Mixed up 1 oz. or Pro Seal in a cup. Scooped it out and put it on a piece of cardboard. Worked a small foam roller back and forth on/in the "blob" to coat the roller lightly, then put rolled the trailing edge. Very thin, very even, and made no mess. Let dry for 5 days. Really came out well. Used very little of the 1 oz. If I had to guess I'd say I used under 5% of it per side. Roller puts a nice even coat on the AEX. It held very well.

Much to my surprise riveting the trailing edge was a complete non-issue. Unfortunately, I didn't get the stiffeners overlapped properly when closing up so I get to rebuild the skins. Will be using Pro Seal and the roller "method" again.

Fred
 
Any other builders on the field? They probably have a can of out of date proseal under the bench. (it's good for so many other things!). Mix up a small batch about the size of a 1/2 shot glass, use a popsicle stick to put a SMALL blob at each stiffner bridging the 2 skins, all that's needed. The less weight used the better!
 
Used the mini "gun" for my build. Very convenient, but wasteful for most projects. My tanks were quickbuild so I don't have any experience with those. I waited to mix up the gun for a few things at a time. Pretty easy to make a drill adapter. The only way to go to mix it up.
 
Just a thought.

Look at the working time of the pro seal, and the cost per oz. You might consider a quart kit, and keep it in the freezer. Warm on the counter in a sealed bag, then return. or break in to smaller batches and freeze. The qt has a much longer working time.

How to apply? West Systems 810 disposable caulking tubes $2.50 each. Cut them down to size. Easy to use/apply, and at $50/qt instead of $12/oz you just might find a lot more uses for this stuff.

A friend told me.
 
Proseal

Small container from Vans is plenty.
Not mentioned is surface prep. Back rivet a stiff piece of aluminum angle. I used 2"x2".
Scuff with scotchbrite just before assembly. Wipe with a solvent like acetone then spread very thin on both skin and wedge surfaces. Place a glob at each stiffener intersection then cleko to a piece of angle and leave it for a week.
Rivet per manual.
 
Larry,
Im going to pick up some angle aluminum this week a the Lowes Aviation supply.

I was thinking about attaching the angle to my the edge of my bench with some bolts, so that the top is flush and level with my bench (my bench is nice and leveled). Then, use one of the skins to backdrill the holes in the angle, and cleco the trailing edge assembly to it for prosealing.


As for riveting, I guess I'd have to use my back riveting plate and find some way of getting it flush with my bench so the trailing edge rests straight and flat.
 
Backdrill

Larry,
Im going to pick up some angle aluminum this week a the Lowes Aviation supply.

I was thinking about attaching the angle to my the edge of my bench with some bolts, so that the top is flush and level with my bench (my bench is nice and leveled). Then, use one of the skins to backdrill the holes in the angle, and cleco the trailing edge assembly to it for prosealing.


As for riveting, I guess I'd have to use my back riveting plate and find some way of getting it flush with my bench so the trailing edge rests straight and flat.

I drilled mine so the trailing edge was flush to the outside vertex of the angle. It was so close, the clekos were right in the inside vertex so look for that. I've used that piece of angle for all sorts of jobs to keep edges straight.
Also, find a back drill method that won't possibly touch the skin holes. I suggest using a pilot of some sort. I use a piece of 1/16" brass tube. The end is rounded to fit the hole and the inside fits a #41 bit.
I made a 1/4" plywood back rivet board with a cut out for the plate. Just make sure you mark the edges of the plate so you don't accidently hit a rivet off the edge of the plate. It will ruin your day.
You got this!
 
Make sure u put the proseal on THIN, and even layer. I had some pillowing on my trailing edge, and re-skinned my rudder because the trailing edge was really wavy. Usd the 3M tape that van's sells (on the 2d try) and it worked great with NO mess. Would do it agIn....Very happy with results
 
Another data point - I slopped on way too much proseal then clecod the trailing edge to a hefty chunk of angle iron. Cured straight.
 
Throughout my build I used cake decorating bags when I wanted to apply pro seal with a gun. They are cheap, disposable, and work well.

247WH Flying for 3 Years.
 
Epoxy vs. Proseal

Just built an RV7 rudder out here in Eugene. The Synergy method uses structural epoxy instead of proseal and an aluminum angle clecoed to the trailing edge for a couple of days - then you can do the double flush rivets. Worked really well on the -10 trailing edges I did here a few months ago.

It is a bit harder to clean up after the epoxy sets up but a phenolic scraper works pretty well.
 
Lynn, I used the smallest container of pro-seal from Van's and still had maybe 1/4 of it left over after the trailing edge. Sadly I could think of nothing else to do with it so I tossed the remainder. Definitely go with the aluminum angle--mine would have never turned out straight without it! Borrowed one from another builder in the area (thanks, Bill!)

IMG_0918-M.jpg
 
Lynn, if you're going to be building your wings after your empennage is finished, just go ahead and get the quart kit from Vans. It won't be long until you need it. You can use what little you need for this job, and then have it on hand for your fuel tanks. No waste. You can store it in the fridge or freezer until you need it, to extend the shelf life, but you probably have no worries. I'm still dipping into my can of Proseal for odd jobs around the house and shop, 8 years after the stuff expired! And I never once stored it in the fridge or freezer. (I would not recommend using it on the fuel tanks, just to be clear, when it's expired).

For a cheap and easy application tool, use some syringes like this. I got these at a Target pharmacy after asking the pharmacist for some without needles. He was so curious about my project, he asked a lot of questions and ended up giving them to me for free! You can even re-use them when the proseal cures. Just peel it off and it's good as new again.

100_4836%20(Small).JPG


These syringes work great for applying a small bead of sealant. It's like a mini caulking gun.
 
Syringes

Lynn, if you're going to be building your wings after your empennage is finished, just go ahead and get the quart kit from Vans. It won't be long until you need it. You can use what little you need for this job, and then have it on hand for your fuel tanks. No waste. You can store it in the fridge or freezer until you need it, to extend the shelf life, but you probably have no worries. I'm still dipping into my can of Proseal for odd jobs around the house and shop, 8 years after the stuff expired! And I never once stored it in the fridge or freezer. (I would not recommend using it on the fuel tanks, just to be clear, when it's expired).

For a cheap and easy application tool, use some syringes like this. I got these at a Target pharmacy after asking the pharmacist for some without needles. He was so curious about my project, he asked a lot of questions and ended up giving them to me for free! You can even re-use them when the proseal cures. Just peel it off and it's good as new again.

100_4836%20(Small).JPG


These syringes work great for applying a small bead of sealant. It's like a mini caulking gun.

The nutrition syringes work great if the pharmacy has them. They also fit in a caulking gun for extra leverage
 
Lynn, Unless you're set on using Pro-Seal, you may want to consider the VHB tape and the "aluminum angle method" described here:

http://tasrv10.com/?cat=4

I recently used this method and got excellent results. (Not to mention my Clecos don't have adhesive stuck all over them)
 
Thanks for all the suggestions. I went ahead and ordered the 3.5 ounce size, and I will use it for the trailing edge, and the elevator stiffeners when I bend the trailing edge.

Since it seems so little is needed for the rudder trailing edge, I think I will wait to glue the trailing edge until I bend the elevator trailing edge and then do them in the same work session, and just mix up the tube and use it all at once on both pieces.

So, I will get the elevator trailing stiffeners attached, and get the elevator ready for bending, bend it to shape, and then get the rudder trailing edge drilled to some angle. Then, I will be ready to mix up this 3.5 ounce package and bond the rudder trailing edge, and use the remainder to bond the stiffeners in the elevator trailing edge.

I decided not to get the quart size right now, because I have no idea when I will be able to start the fuel tanks. I'm hoping to order my wings end of Jan or first of Feb, but I likely won't be able to start working on the fuel tanks until mid summer, so I'll just get the quart kit at that time.
 
For the trailing edge get the 1 oz and a popsicle stick.

I did the same thing and used 15lb fishing line as a straight edge profile and adjusted until the proseal set. The result was and still is the most perfect straight line in the history of straight lines for the trailing edge.
 
Just buy a regular caulk gun, grind down the plunger washer to a smaller diameter so it will fit in the cartilage of the proseal tube.
Put a large washer on the nozzle end. on the inside so the proseal tip fits through the washer hole. It will hold the tip in place after it gets a little sealant on it.. it will stay for ever... It will work again with regular caulk cartilages.

any proseal tube will work... with out spending an outrageous
amount for a sealant gun.

Smilin' Jack
 
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