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Sport Pilot Question about class B airspace

WingedFrog

WingedFrog

Well Known Member
I have a flight plan that would have me fly straight above Philadelphia class B. Most class B's top at 10,000 ft making it impossible for a Sport Pilot to fly over them but KPHL tops at 7000 ft. Is it legal for my RV-12 and me to overfly KPHL at an altitude between 7,100 and 10,000 ft?
 
Class B airspace

Don't see why not. But why don't you get some instruction and get a logbook endorsement? Very worthwhile option.
 
PilotBrent said:
Don't see why not. But why don't you get some instruction and get a logbook endorsement? Very worthwhile option.
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I have the endorsement, Brent but if you could hear my accent when I speak, you would understand why I am reluctant to communicate with air traffic controllers! :D
 
WingedFrog said:
I have the endorsement, Brent but if you could hear my accent when I speak, you would understand why I am reluctant to communicate with air traffic controllers! :D
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Oh don't think that way. If you could hear some of the accents air traffic controllers have when they speak you might realize yours really might not be so bad after all!:D
 
In answer to your original question, yes, you can legally over fly Class B airspace between 7,000 and 10,000' as a sport pilot.
 
Mel said:
In answer to your original question, yes, you can legally over fly Class B airspace between 7,000 and 10,000' as a sport pilot.
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Thanks Mel, I was not quite sure as I was convinced that the 10,000 ft altitude limitation for Sport Pilot was coordinated with the 10,000 ft top of Class B airspace. When I saw the top of the Philly airspace at 7,000 ft it gave me a pause.
If I get in trouble when I overfly KPHL I will let you know! :eek:
 
JP, I am a southern boy, and I can understand you. I do not think you will have any difficulty talking to a northern controller.
 
Our airspace is pretty full of lots and lots of foreign student pilots trying to become airline pilots back at home. If you think a southern accent will confuse and air traffic controller you need to come and listen on our approach and airport traffic freqs. I think the controllers would take a down-home down south accent over some ours any day:)

EBB
 
Ex Bonanza Bucko said:
Our airspace is pretty full of lots and lots of foreign student pilots trying to become airline pilots back at home. If you think a southern accent will confuse and air traffic controller you need to come and listen on our approach and airport traffic freqs. I think the controllers would take a down-home down south accent over some ours any day:)

EBB
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Um - if you check WingedFrog's name and nickname I'm thinking the accent is not southern - US anyway. LOL!
 
There is nothing wrong with calling ATC and telling them you are there and want flight following across the top. The best of all worlds you get traffic alerts and you can make course changes at will.
 
RFSchaller said:
There is nothing wrong with calling ATC and telling them you are there and want flight following across the top. The best of all worlds you get traffic alerts and you can make course changes at will.
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Maybe. I have been VFR with flight following around or over the lettered air spaces and have been given headings and / or altitudes to hold, and have been "corrected" when changing an altitude without coordination with the controller. The controllers may be aware of heavy metal coming into the airspace from a certain direction and want to keep it clear. In any event, I've found it best to coordinate with the controllers for any heading or altitude change, even if they don't say "advise before any heading or altitude change".
 
RFSchaller said:
There is nothing wrong with calling ATC and telling them you are there and want flight following across the top. The best of all worlds you get traffic alerts and you can make course changes at will.
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this is a great answer! Its to your best interest to have more eyes on you to keep you out of harms way even though your legal to fly above 7k airspace.
 
In general you should always tell the controller when you change routing or altitude unless he/she says "resume own navigation" or "altitude at pilot's discretion" or gives you a an altitude limit such as "maintain VFR below 4000".
 
RFSchaller said:
There is nothing wrong with calling ATC and telling them you are there and want flight following across the top. The best of all worlds you get traffic alerts and you can make course changes at will.
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We had our monthly EAA 1114 Breakfast meeting this morning where I discussed the issue with a former ATC, he told me he would not do it because of the volume of traffic flying across the top in this area. In these conditions Rich's advice (confirmed by Joe) makes lots of sense. With Flight Following I still will face the understanding issue but in a more limited context.
By the way I agree that my accent is not a big problem, my main issue is understanding the controllers who speak very fast over sometimes noisy radio signals. I would hate to have to ask them to repeat in a high traffic area where the amount of time they can spend with each plane is limited.
 
Try it, you'll like it.

Jean, try flight following a few times on low traffic/low stress flights. I bet you'll like it, and your radio anxiety will fade away. You can cancel flight following at any time if it becomes too difficult. Don't be surprised if they cancel on you because you're too low for radar coverage. John
 
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I think flight following is great in complex airspace like the LA basin. Otherwise I prefer my IPod plugged into my Bose while using my ADS-B In on WingX.
 
RFSchaller said:
I think flight following is great in complex airspace like the LA basin. Otherwise I prefer my IPod plugged into my Bose while using my ADS-B In on WingX.
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Actually TIS on Skyview is quite helpful in areas close to Class Bs and Cs. The main issue with TIS is that, beside not working when you are too low (in my case it drops when I enter the pattern area at 1,400ft), it also drops when I am still in sight of a neighboring class C (KGSO) but North-West of the airport. I have KRDU also a class C close to my home airport with a consistent coverage all around but I cannot figure the TIS blind spot North-West of KGSO.
 
RFSchaller said:
Yes, ADS is not perfect, but around PHX I get great coverage.
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Rich, TIS is not ADSB but it provides very good traffic data... when it works. My understanding is that ADSB's coverage will be better may be thanks to the satellite network combined with ground stations. Unfortunately I do not understand well how TIS works except that it is using the Xponders data. I assume that some ground stations broadcast the traffic information back to my transponder, adding the data from nearby planes equipped with a transponder. It would be nice to know how the "TIS unavailable" happens and if there is anything I can do in such case to get it back. I know that if I am too low my transponder cannot be reached but when I am at 6,000 ft or higher I don't understand why TIS drops consistently at the same location (about 30 miles NW of class 4 KGSO) on a trip I make frequently. A possible explanation might be that my TIS traffic comes from KRDU which at this point is about 80 SM away and getting farther.
 
TIS-B is described in chapter 4-5-8 of the AIM. TIS is in Chapter 4-5-6, and a TIS coverage map is depecticted in Figure4-5-5.
 
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I would recommend talking to the controllers before going over class B whether you are in doubt or not. It always works out better that way.
dick seiders 120093
 
Maybe I have a misunderstanding of TIS, but I thought that most CLass B areas broadcast all traffic on ADS-B as TIS-B and outside these areas we get a TIS-B/TIS-R bubble around us plus air-to-air hits.

I'll be the first to admit I don't know ADS as well as I wish I did, so if any of you can enlighten me I will gladly accept the info!
 
The older TIS-A uploads to a cockpit display through a Mode S transponder. All traffic within a few thousand feet of your altitude is shown. For reliable reception, a receiving aircraft needs to be within 55 nm of an approach control radar. Even in flat Florida, I found TIS-A marginal below 2500 AGL when only 40 nm out.

TIS-B uploads from the roughly 700 ADS-B towers in the U.S. though an ADS-B receiver. Targets within a 15 nm radius and a few thousand feet altitude are shown on a display, but only if you are broadcasting ADS-B Out through either a transponder with a GPS source or a Universal Access Transceiver.

Should your non-ADS-B Out airplane be within the 15 nm radius of another with ADS-B Out, you will receive some, but not all TIS-B targets in your vicinity.

At all times ADS-B Out aircraft in the area will be shown by direct reception rather than ground upload.

Having several years experience with both, I find TIS-B superior, but at the cost of installing Out capability. For example, my home airport is 30 nm from the nearest ADS-B tower, yet on departure I see traffic targets starting at 300 AGL.
 
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In my experience, Philly does not want to be bothered with VFR requests. Your best bet is to plan on going over, but have the frequencies handy if you need to descend into their space for cloud clearance or some other reason. It is also easy to go under/around. Just be careful of the VP TFR if you are going under to the south.
 
I'd have to think about the reasons a bit but more than a few pilots I respect a lot think it's a bad idea to go over the top unless you're talking with ATC.

But, if I may, at the heart of your question, it seems to me, is a reluctance to talk to the controllers, and I think this is something you should investigate a bit more.

Something interesting happened to me on Saturday when I was ducking under the KMSP Class B for a trip out toward Sioux Falls. I had told the controller upon departure from KSGS (where the floor of the Class B is 2300) that I'd stay at 2,000 until clear of the Class B shelf, and then climb to 6500.

A few minutes later, he cleared me into the Class B at 3500, then a few minutes after that to 4500, and then to 6500. The thing is: I never asked to enter the Class B.

Granted, I make my living in radio so talking on a microphone isn't a really big deal for me, but even so, I once had a reluctance to ask controllers for flight following or even to ask for permission to enter the B.

Over time, as I forced myself to do so, working within the system became more fun and I've learned a lot about what the controllers do and how they think (I try to go to any safety forum featuring controllers). Because I'm with them, I'm safer in the sky, too. Bonus.

If you're going to go over the top, that's your choice, but I would certainly be talking to Philadelphia approach when I do so. Besides, they may clear you into the Class B at a more convenient altitude. If they don't, you're still on frequency, they can't stop you, but they're not going to let you exchange metal in an area without increased risk of doing so.
 
Mixed feelings

I have mixed feelings about Class B.

The last time I was on top of Class B airspace was a trip over Cincinnati doing some sightseeing at 10.5k. I was monitoring the frequency and heard myself called out as traffic to an arriving Beech 1900. The controller also added "I don't know what he's doing there," and I remember thinking that if you wanted to know what I was doing at 10,500, you should have capped the airspace at 11,000, but I also got to thinking that it would have been prudent to let them know on an FYI basis what my plans were.

That said, if I'm passing through that area I will usually be lower and will usually give them a call - they're generally receptive. In fact, I really have no choice now that I'm flying as an LSA pilot - I can't go one foot over 10,000 MSL anyway.

On the other end of the state, last Friday I went to pains to go around/stay under the Class B at Cleveland.

(http://www.schmetterlingaviation.com/2015/08/the-hunter-hunted.html)

This is because of the results from trying to work with them in the past. If I can get them to clear me in at all, they have a tendency to vector me miles out over the water - I'm not cool with being down low miles from the coast in a single engine plane, so I just routinely avoid using their services.
 
Bruce,

Good concise explanation. What I don't understand is why I see targets over a hundred miles away sometimes. For example I have been over Blythe, CA and seen targets over Phoenix a 100 miles away.

Rich
 
I've heard a lot of RV pals also question Cleveland controllers' interest in working with GA into Class B.

When I was flying back from Massachusetts a few months ago, I called up and asked for permission into the Class B so I didn't have to go quite as far offshore as I did on the way east.

The guy didn't sound all that happy about it, but he let me in.

So it surprised me a bit when I picked up some controller action flying east into Burke Lakefront for an Indians game last month. I had flight following and the guy was really great working with me -- even apologized for being late shouting up some traffic.

And when I needed to get under the Class B into Burke, he was cool, especially when I mistook the 1900 foot "ring" for the 3000' foot ring. That is to say: I was in the Class B. :(

Last year, flying into Medina, the Cleveland Approach dude was great.

Not sure what Cleveland's problem is. They're not even a hub airport anymore and don't seem that busy.

But is it a systemic problem or are there just a few controllers who aren't all that much fun?

But here's one theory: If you're already under flight following when approaching a Class B area, it makes it more likely you can get into a Class B area. I have not done enough research to prove that this is true. But I did attend a session with the head of the Farmington (MSP) facility a few months ago and when he mentioned at one point "we see you coming, we know what you're going to want," it occurred to me that already being in the system well before asking for entry might spur a little advance planning to fit you in.
 
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noelf said:
TIS-B is described in chapter 4-5-8 of the AIM. TIS is in Chapter 4-5-6, and a TIS coverage map is depecticted in Figure4-5-5.
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Thanks Noel, you know your AIM inside out! I always feel that if I spend my time reading the FAR AIM I will not have time to fly; on the other hand...
 
RFSchaller said:
Bruce,

Good concise explanation. What I don't understand is why I see targets over a hundred miles away sometimes. For example I have been over Blythe, CA and seen targets over Phoenix a 100 miles away.

Rich
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You only get "local" traffic from the ADSB ground stations. But if your receiver can pick up ADSB-out signals directly from other aircraft (most receivers can) and you do not have any software set to filter them out, then you can get air to air over significant distances (100 miles not uncommon, depending on altitudes).
 
LettersFromFlyoverCountry said:
But here's one theory: If you're already under flight following when approaching a Class B area, it makes it more likely you can get into a Class B area. I have not done enough research to prove that this is true. But I did attend a session with the head of the Farmington (MSP) facility a few months ago and when he mentioned at one point "we see you coming, we know what you're going to want," it occurred to me that already being in the system well before asking for entry might spur a little advance planning to fit you in.
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That makes sense - if you're already in the system, that's probably much easier. It would be easy for me to try - both Columbus and Mansfield are very receptive to that kind of thing.
 
This thread turned out to be quite educative (as far as I am concerned), thanks for all advices and suggestions. I found out that working around the Philly class B was not much more miles so I will take the easy route. In case I have to dodge clouds it will be much easier as some suggested. As for traffic avoidance/awareness, I am pretty confident in my Skyview TIS capabilities (let me know, you RV-12/Skyview fliers in the area if TIS works for you around KPHL).
 
Thanks, that might explain the long range targets. I wonder about the "ghosts" when I get two targets off the same plane. Maybe a TIS-B and a direct air to air signal?
 
Many years ago I had an old-time instructor tell me to NEVER use radar services. The ARSA had just gone into effect at our local airspace (Albany, NY), which was voluntary participation, and my instructor viewed this as an invasion of his God given rights to fly anywhere he pleased. He was convinced if everyone refused the service it would go away!

Well, those days are gone forever boys and girls. The Feds are in command of lots of our airspace, and are monitoring most of the rest. For the time being at least, their services are free for us to use. Talking to ATC gives us an extra level of safety as they are adding their eyes to our traffic watch. Why wouldn't we want to add that extra layer of safety by talking to them? Yes, some of us might have to learn ATC- speak, and get over our Mike fright, which is something we can do by spending some time with a competent instructor working in some local Class B, C, D airspace. Well worth the investment IMHO.
 
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