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E-LSA, S-LSA Annual Sign Off

ScottSchmidt

Well Known Member
I have a few questions about signing off the annual for an E-LSA.

As I understand it, an A&P can sign off an E-LSA and does not need to be an IA. And that this is stated in the airworthiness certificate (I have not read mine). Is this correct for most RV-12 E-LSA's?

Would you need to be an IA to do an S-LSA?

Second, is there any "Rotax" specific training that is needed to sign off the annual for either an E-LSA or an S-LSA?

I have not taken the 16 hour course yet but will get this done before the next annual.
Thanks in advance.
 
I have a few questions about signing off the annual for an E-LSA.

As I understand it, an A&P can sign off an E-LSA and does not need to be an IA. And that this is stated in the airworthiness certificate (I have not read mine). Is this correct for most RV-12 E-LSA's?

Would you need to be an IA to do an S-LSA?

Second, is there any "Rotax" specific training that is needed to sign off the annual for either an E-LSA or an S-LSA?

I have not taken the 16 hour course yet but will get this done before the next annual.
Thanks in advance.

Scott, the A/P can sign off either ELSA or SLSA. No Rotax specific training required, but some experience with them would be helpful.
 
Thanks

I appreciate that feedback. There is lots of misunderstanding out there when it comes to E-LSA and S-LSA.
 
Scott, the A/P can sign off either ELSA or SLSA. No Rotax specific training required, but some experience with them would be helpful.

E-LSA this is correct... for S-LSA it is not.

The ASTM's require and give the authority to the manufacturer to specify what level of certification or training is required to do any maint or repair function on their product. That is why the RV-12 maint manual has certification levels listed with all of the procedures listed.
Rotaxs' documentation specifies a specific level of training for every maint or repair process (even oil change).
An E-LSA RV-12 owner is not bound by those requirements because it is an experimental aircraft, though it could be a factor in a warrantee claim if the person doing preventative maint doesn't have the preventative maint specific training (RFSC Rotax 912 Service Specialty training).
So for E-LSA, the only requirement to meet is that stipulated in the operating limitations for who can do the condition inspection (A&P or LSA Repairman Inspector).
For S-LSA, all engine work must be done by someone with the minimum level of FAA required certification (LSA Repairman Maintenance or A&P) and the proper level of Rotax Specific Training.
 
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What Scott said!

ELSAs are certificated with a special airworthiness certificate in the Experimental category and SLSAs are certificated with a special airworthiness certificate in the Light-Sport category. Neither of these categories require IA.
 
Originally Posted by Dave12 View Post
Scott, the A/P can sign off either ELSA or SLSA. No Rotax specific training required, but some experience with them would be helpful.
E-LSA this is correct... for S-LSA it is not.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The ASTM's require and give the authority to the manufacturer to specify what level of certification or training is required to do any maint or repair function on their product. That is why the RV-12 maint manual has certification levels listed with all of the procedures listed.
Rotaxs' documentation specifies a specific level of training for every maint or repair process (even oil change).
An E-LSA RV-12 owner is not bound by those requirements because it is an experimental aircraft, though it could be a factor in a warrantee claim if the person doing preventative maint doesn't have the preventative maint specific training (RFSC Rotax 912 Service Specialty training).
So for E-LSA, the only requirement to meet is that stipulated in the operating limitations for who can do the condition inspection (A&P or LSA Repairman Inspector).
For S-LSA, all engine work must be done by someone with the minimum level of FAA required certification (LSA Repairman Maintenance or A&P) and the proper level of Rotax Specific Training.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Dave,

The FAA came out in writing a couple of years back on Rotax training.
They said Rotax could not force anyone to take their training to be able to work on the Rotax. Rotax can not impose any rules or regs above what the FAA has in place or make policy.The but here was they went on to say that mechanics had to have training, have the manuals and have the proper tools for that engine. So mechanics in the FAA's eyes still need Rotax training, but it can come from anyone. I get hired from time to time by shops to come and train their staff. That in the FAA's eyes qualifies. Do all the mechanics follow this, no, but if a plane crashes the FAA is going to ask the mechanic where he learned to work on a Rotax. That will definitely up his liability if he says he has never had any training. A&P's get Cont. and Lycoming training.

A sport pilot may work on his plane as described under the preventive maint. section in the FAR's that GA pilots work under. You can only do this to your plane. You can not do any thing to an SLSA past preventative maint. unless you are an LSRM-A or A&P as usually specified in the aircraft's manual.

As an ELSA anyone (trunk monkey included) can do the work on the plane. At the annual condition only an LSRM-A, A&P or someone that has had the 16 hr. FAA approved class can do the annual or 100 hr inspection.

Scott is also right that the aircraft MFG can specify who works on the aircraft provided they do not exceed their authority when doing so. During a Rotax warranty claim Rotax can specify a Rotax qualified mechanic do the work depending on what the work is. If it is minor they may not care, but major work has to be an authorized mechanic.

Many LSA MFG's put things in manuals, but the one document that really counts is the POH and that is where some MFG's fall down and don't included enough. It may be in some other manual, but it may not have any teeth for enforcement.
 
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This can become a problem. Many A&P's will not work on a Rotax regardless of training requirements (some will not work on any Experimental). Despite there being several shops run by IA's, and of course a batch of us A&P types, you have to fly someone in from a distant location for simple maintenance here if you own a Rotax powered plane. As they get more popular, I would expect that to change.

Originally Posted by Dave12 View Post
Scott, the A/P can sign off either ELSA or SLSA. No Rotax specific training required, but some experience with them would be helpful.
E-LSA this is correct... for S-LSA it is not.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The ASTM's require and give the authority to the manufacturer to specify what level of certification or training is required to do any maint or repair function on their product. That is why the RV-12 maint manual has certification levels listed with all of the procedures listed.
Rotaxs' documentation specifies a specific level of training for every maint or repair process (even oil change).
An E-LSA RV-12 owner is not bound by those requirements because it is an experimental aircraft, though it could be a factor in a warrantee claim if the person doing preventative maint doesn't have the preventative maint specific training (RFSC Rotax 912 Service Specialty training).
So for E-LSA, the only requirement to meet is that stipulated in the operating limitations for who can do the condition inspection (A&P or LSA Repairman Inspector).
For S-LSA, all engine work must be done by someone with the minimum level of FAA required certification (LSA Repairman Maintenance or A&P) and the proper level of Rotax Specific Training.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Dave,

The FAA came out in writing a couple of years back on Rotax training.
They said Rotax could not force anyone to take their training to be able to work on the Rotax. Rotax can not impose any rules or regs above what the FAA has in place or make policy.The but here was they went on to say that mechanics had to have training, have the manuals and have the proper tools for that engine. So mechanics in the FAA's eyes still need Rotax training, but it can come from anyone. I get hired from time to time by shops to come and train their staff. That in the FAA's eyes qualifies. Do all the mechanics follow this, no, but if a plane crashes the FAA is going to ask the mechanic where he learned to work on a Rotax. That will definitely up his liability if he says he has never had any training. A&P's get Cont. and Lycoming training.

A sport pilot may work on his plane as described under the preventive maint. section in the FAR's that GA pilots work under. You can only do this to your plane. You can not do any thing to an SLSA past preventative maint. unless you are an LSRM-A or A&P as usually specified in the aircraft's manual.

As an ELSA anyone (trunk monkey included) can do the work on the plane. At the annual condition only an LSRM-A, A&P or someone that has had the 16 hr. FAA approved class can do the annual or 100 hr inspection.

Scott is also right that the aircraft MFG can specify who works on the aircraft provided they do not exceed their authority when doing so. During a Rotax warranty claim Rotax can specify a Rotax qualified mechanic do the work depending on what the work is. If it is minor they may not care, but major work has to be an authorized mechanic.

Many LSA MFG's put things in manuals, but the one document that really counts is the POH and that is where some MFG's fall down and don't included enough. It may be in some other manual, but it may not have any teeth for enforcement.
 
The FAA came out in writing a couple of years back on Rotax training.
They said Rotax could not force anyone to take their training to be able to work on the Rotax.

Roger,
Please direct me to where I can view the written policy from the FAA.

Scott
 
Hi Scott,

I published it on the Sport Pilot Talk forum and the CT Flier forum back then.
The letter was not a wide spread distribution. You would have to go and find it. Call Carol Carpenter at Rainbow Aviation and see if she can send you a copy. This letter came out about April of 2010 and addressed other LSA questions. It went through FAA legal.
 
As I understand it, the 16 hour course only qualifies you to do the inspection on an E-LSA that you own. If you sell the plane and get another E-LSA, then the new plane can be added to your certificate.
 
This was discussed in the 120 hour LSRM course at Rainbow Aviation. She (Carol Carpenter) has a copy of the letter from the FAA to her in response to this question. See rainbowaviation.com, click on Letters:FAA legal, click on Response to Rotax...
Or go to it directly at http://rainbowaviation.com/articles/rotax maintenance training AGC 2 2012.pdf

Thanks you.
I finally have something in writing to refer to... I have attended my last RFSC Renewal class:D

I agree that type specific training doesn't have to come from Rotax (I now have a Written FAA position on that), but an A&P with no Rotax experience does have to get it somewhere, and I still think the Service and Maintenance courses are a good way to get it (but no more renewal classes for me... yea!)
 
I absolutely agree that someone with no Rotax experience whether an owner or mechanic should take the Rotax Service and Line maint. class.
Some ought to take writing and documentation 101 some where too. I'm working on a new class and writing it up so sometime in the future there may be a new better Rotax class that encompasses service and performing an annual. It's an all hands on class with a live engine, but it will still be a while waiting to get Rotax's final approval. It's just in its early stages. It will be an excellent class for owners and mechanics and will cover everything except Heavy maint.
 
Demand for Rotax and SLSA mechanics?

Since I received my A&P last December, I really haven't done much with it. I've worked a little with my brother (Walt at EXPaircraft) and a few short term jobs.

Walt doesn't work on Rotax and only does a few things on RV-12's. I've thought about specializing in RV-12's / SLSA's and Rotax. I've looked in to the Rainbow Aviation course and Rotax specific training such as Lockwood in Sebring. I'm also considering building an RV-12 to really learn the details of the 12's (if I can get my wife to approve :mad:).

The big question for me is whether there is enough demand for maintenance service to justify the cost of the training.
 
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