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Cost of Flying

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David-aviator

Well Known Member
I topped off the tanks this morning and once again the bill was over a $100. But that was not too bad, it had been over 2 weeks since the last fuel purchase. During that time, the Hobbs logged 5.7 hours and the burn was 27.7 gallons.

Getting a handle on the cost of flying is becoming somewhat of an obsession. One learns after retirement money does not grow on trees and a fixed income becomes less and less valuable. Being a senior has no tax benefits and insurance of all types costs more.

To control flight costs, one thing that works is to pull the throttle and mixture back as soon as possible after take off. The average burn for those 5.7 hours was 4.85 gph. Even at that, it comes in at $19.48 an hour just for the fuel. When I factor in the cost of a weekly lunch with some friends, it is about $28. Well, at least it isn't a hundred bucks like it could be by flying a greater distance but it all adds up.

The total cost of flight for 2009 for me was $6,786.73. That included everything from EAA dues to insurance to Weathermeister. And that is after tax dollars as every nickel one pulls out of a retirement plan is taxable.

So what's the point, you might ask? Well, it's about flying and paying for it and trying to keep costs under control. I'd like to fly forever, but sometimes wonder if the cost is sustainable. Friends ask, what would you do without an airplane? I don't know - but do think about it. Local zoo officials look for old geezers to run the kids train as conductor or engineer, or one could volunteer to be a tour guide at the AB brewery and perhaps get a free beer at the end of the day. I don't know.

How many of you think about life without an airplane and is the cost under control at this point?
 
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Me Too

David,
I am not retired yet. In fact I have over 9,500 days before any such day. But this is something I think about a lot.

Being born in the US, I moved to Hong Kong for work, and moved back to fly. But now I feel the increasing pressure to move back over to Asia due to my job. You cannot have a plane there unless you are extremely wealthy. We are lucky to have our aviation forefathers to carve out such a great ability to fly. Hope it does not get taken away. So this is something I think about every day.

So the cost of flying is very reasonable in the US, even in my home town of San Francisco, compared to Europe or Asia. And in many countries this is not even an option.

And for the past few years, having an airplane was a better investment than the stock market or real estate. :)

I too hope I can fly forever.
 
If the money isn't there or the value has gone you have to think about it

If the money isn't there or the value has gone you have to think about it. I am also retired but the margin for me is still sufficient to carry on. From what I know of your background, USAF F-86 pilot, airline pilot and heaven knows what else, the thrill of burger bouncing in an RV could be falling short in view of the tremendous cost and sacrifices that it demands. I continue to modify my RV-6A and try to make it faster then fly in SARL cross country air races trying to win out over other RVs with 360 cubic inch engines. I will be 74 in a few weeks and since July of 2009 our attention has been focused on some medical problems that almost killed my wife. The oncologist says that he thinks her ability to breath will be back to normal by December of this year (2010). I am happy that she is doing as well as she is and I will be satisfied with whatever level of recovery we can achieve. In spite of it all, I keep the goal of speed and winning in my mind, to move forward with when and if the opportunity presents itself. In my case aiming high to achieve more with my RV-6A is very important to continue flying. If I didn't have that and the opportunity to travel to new and exciting places with my wife I would stop in pretty short order. Life for us older folks is too short to keep doing something that we really can't afford when there is no special sense of satisfaction or pleasure from it. I am a racer and I will continue till I can't do it anymore physically. I don't think this would interest you but maybe it would. Checkout www.sportairrace.org.

Bob Axsom
 
You're lucky, David...

...because even if I reduce power to 10 GPH, my -10 still costs over $45/hour to fly...way more than my -6 did. My usual burn is 14.5 GPH because I don't run LOP = $65.25:eek: The -12 keeps looking better and better.

Adding insurance and miscellaneous expenses, it comes to near $100/hour to run my -10.

Bear in mind that I've been figuring hourly expenses for over 35 years, running my ag business, so I can amortize all the costs into an hourly figure.

No, I can't see me NOT owning an airplane.

We cut other expenses....no phone, just cells, no new cars but good, used ones, grill often and seldom eat out, etc.

Best,
 
I hope I've planned ahead enough.....

I don't own an RV .... yet. The decision now is a 9 or a 12. I think the medical is a more worrysome thing than the hourly cost. It can bite you at any time once you're up in age as I am. And if it does, I hope I've befriended enough people over the years that my ability to get up in the air will continue.
 
I do understand the costs, and even when not facing retirement you have to keep it under control.

I have been a prosecutor, and a public defender. Lawyer yes, rich no, most new teachers start out at a higher income....better politics for them. I am not complaining, I have thoroughly enjoyed serving the system and the public.

I could not have kept flying at all were it not for the RV-7. It is truly economical, especially when AD's, SB's, and Annual come around. Plus, I can pull back the prop and throttle and cruise around all day sight seeing for what seems like fuel vapor.

But, a major change and financial risk brings it all in perspective. I am going to be starting a business...my own practice...and I will have to give up the RV for a while. :(

I hope to build another one, and when I do it will either be a 7 or a 10.

I can honestly say that the RV-7 has cost me slightly less per hour than my Citabria did to own/fly. And I have done a lot more Cross Country in the RV. They really are incredible machines.
 
I'm sure I'll be using mogas when I get to the engine decisions. Saving an extra $1.20 or so per gallon when the fuel burn is around 7-9 gph is enough incentive to me, and I can live without that extra 4 mph speed by having the higher compression pistons and burning 100LL.

OPEC literally does have us over a barrel. They got enough control and power over the price to keep it where they want it, and I don?t think that will change in my lifetime.

A few things that might help ease our costs concerns though, is that you can take any reasonably built Van?s aircraft, which is most of them, invest your $50-$100,000 or more into it; fly it for ten years, put 1,000 hours on it, and you?ll probably still get all your initial investment back on it.

Now take any nice luxurious car or pick-up of your choice. Invest $35-$50,000 in it. Drive it for ten years, add 150,000 miles on it, and what do you think you?ll get on it? I?m guessing maybe 10% of that value if you are lucky and you kept it up. How many want a vehicle with 150,000 miles on it? It would take most of us about 800 hours to put that many miles on their planes, and unlike the 150,000 mile car that almost nobody would want, 800 hours on a plane is nothing at all, and everybody would still want it.

One way we can justify some of fuel burn costs is that if we take a long trip that we were going to take anyway, but instead of going by car, choose to go by plane, is to pull back on the throttle slightly, and on most of our two-seaters, we?ll be getting the same gas mileage as quite a bit of the cars on the road today, only difference being, we?ll be getting there a lot quicker at close to 200 mph and in a straight line too.

For some of you that have the high hangar costs, if you?re retired, and a job isn?t holding you down to that particular location, it?s time to think about a place that is more pilot and plane friendly, and where the costs are only $100-$200.00 a month for hangars, not some of the $500.00 + I?ve heard some say they are paying. And where land is plentiful and cheap, one can always consider their own grass strip and hangar.
 
I am in the retired/fixed income column now and have done some thinking about these issues. Things are fine right now, but my choice of an RV-10 that I keep ready to go IFR, means database subscriptions and datalink WX subscriptions on top of everything else. I jumped on the Seattle Avionics lifetime updates for electronic charts last fall, so at least I no longer have that expense.
Mary and I really love traveling in this airplane and will continue to do so as long as money and health allow.
I suspect I will step down to an LSA someday, but hopefully that is a long way off.
If I could not fly at all anymore it would be tough, but I would move on. Living down here without a boat is one of the things I might change if I could not fly any more.:) We love boats and the water just about as much as flying.
 
danielhv said:
Two words....

MO GAS. :) Thats my plan to keep costs down!
Click to expand...

ill second that. saving almost $2/ gal with current prices. x 8 gal/ hr = $16/ hr savings. been doing this for about 7 years now flying about 300 hrs a year. figure that one out. my wallet is very happy.
 
Find a buddy

How many hours a week do you fly? Find a buddy who'll return a portion of the cost of your airplane (or even 2 or 3 buddies) and then you'll have someone to split the fixed expenses with, such as insurance, maintenance and a hanger. This can drastically reduce your overall expenses. Do we really need to keep our airplanes to ourselves to fly 2 hrs a week (sometimes even less)?

Share the RV grin!:)
 
David-aviator said:
I topped off the tanks this morning and once again the bill was over a $100. But that was not too bad, it had been over 2 weeks since the last fuel purchase. During that time, the Hobbs logged 5.7 hours and the burn was 27.7 gallons.

To control flight costs, one thing that works is to pull the throttle and mixture back as soon as possible after take off. The average burn for those 5.7 hours was 4.85 gph.
Click to expand...

I see these same numbers with my 6A O320 fp. Looking at the 12 as low cost flight, without medical issues, you can purchase a used 6 or 6A for a little over 1/2 the cost of a 12. You could insure this aircraft for liability only for about $350 per year. Your condition inspection would be about $400 per year or less. Find a hangar with a high wing and tuck it under for 1/2 price.

Then when you go fly, get to 2k AGL and pull back to 21 and 21. And then LEAN IT OUT!! I do have lightspeed ign. You will be at or above max light sport speed, the aircraft will be quiet (low rpm) and will handle just amazing........ all whale burning LESS PER HOUR than the 12............:D
 
23 mpg...

..is what my RV-6A gets @ 180mph. Better than my Ford Ranger gets at 60 mph. I recently made a trip post about flying from Battle Ground to Pullman to visit my daughter at WSU. 1.5 hrs going, just under 2 hrs coming back. The trip takes 8 hrs. by car including necessary stops.

Currently I have a high compression engine so I can't run MoGas. The next engine will definitely run MoGas, which will make the plane cheaper to use for long distance trips than my Ranger.

Also, my daughter couldn't really spend more than one day with me. Would you travel two days in a car just to spend one day at the destination? I spent one night in a motel. In a car it would have been two, so I more than covered the cost differential for fuel.

LarryT
 
A wise man once told me two important things about aviation as a hobby:

1) NEVER add up all the money you pour into your flying... you don't want to know.
2) NEVER try to cost-justify your flying... you can't.

I can't even really "afford" the 45 yr old, $27K Cherokee I own, but I do it anyway. I'm very fortunate to have a friend who lets me fly his brand new RV-8, which I helped him build. Someday I hope to be able to build my own RV-7, but right now I just don't have the financial wherewithal to even begin. If I added up all the money I've ever spent on the Cherokee and flying it for nearly 9 years, I'm sure I could have bought a decent ready-to-fly RV-7 outright, but then I wouldn't have been flying anywhere nearly as much all those years either. I chose to fly instead of build, and wouldn't trade my flying experiences for the world. Life is too short, and the older you get, the time passes more quickly, and every time I roar(*) down the runway and pull back on the controls to climb into the sky, for a moment somehow all that money spent feels like it makes sense.


* "roar" = subjective term WRT the Cherokee, = actual term WRT the RV-8, but you know what I mean ;)
 
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Another thought...

Someone already mentioned moving and I can assure you that you can have a much better life in East TN on the same amount of income. I know everyone cannot move so how about working to find a partner for the plane. Sure you'll give up the opportunity to fly at a moments notice but the overall cost should go down 20-40% (my WAG).

John Tuck
Commercial Pilot
Realtor
Tellico Realty
www.tellicoreatly.com
 
trib said:
How many hours a week do you fly? Find a buddy who'll return a portion of the cost of your airplane (or even 2 or 3 buddies) and then you'll have someone to split the fixed expenses with, such as insurance, maintenance and a hanger. This can drastically reduce your overall expenses. Do we really need to keep our airplanes to ourselves to fly 2 hrs a week (sometimes even less)?

Share the RV grin!:)
Click to expand...

I so wish there were more partnerships out there. What I've found though is that builders tend to have little desire to partner. Their plane is rather too personal for that. Second or later owners are far more likely to be up for this sort of arrangement, and if I ever find a plane to buy I will probably pursue a partner after a year or so.

It's probably better for the plane too, in that it gets a little more exercise.
 
To paraphrase:
I spend most of my money on planes, guns, and women. The rest I just waste.

Any hobby is expensive if you get serious about it. The key is to not have too many! I know a lot of guys that spend more money chasing fish or a little white ball than I do on flying. I am considering that MOgas option more these days though, if I could find ethanol-free.
 
Fixed Income

Time for the Kobayashi Maru senario, if the conditions prevent you from winning (doing what you want) change the conditions.

lots of good suggestions listed already I will add one ...go make some pocket money, no doubt you have some skill yo care to share might even be fun

Peter
 
petercavallo said:
...go make some pocket money, no doubt you have some skill yo care to share might even be fun
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I do...I work part time at our local venue for concerts/arena football and ice hockey. It's fun, I get to see concerts and sports for free, and the money made goes straight to the airplane account, and doing this doesn't affect our household budget one penny.:cool:
 
Who spends money?

As has been said, trying to cost justify this fantastic hobby of ours just can't be done and is truly depressing.

I don't spend money, I use "aviation credits" which don't have any value (much like the NZ$!!!) and I don't have any worries.......(but then I don't have a Chief Financial Officer looking over my shoulder either) :D

Ignorance is bliss, so please don't ruin my fantasy
 
Mile High Relic said:
I so wish there were more partnerships out there. What I've found though is that builders tend to have little desire to partner. Their plane is rather too personal for that. Second or later owners are far more likely to be up for this sort of arrangement, and if I ever find a plane to buy I will probably pursue a partner after a year or so.

It's probably better for the plane too, in that it gets a little more exercise.
Click to expand...

The last airplane I owned was a partnership. It was an older Bonanza and my partner was great. We got along extremely well and never had any schedule conflicts with the airplane. The airplane before that was a partnership in a
Cardinal with three other owners. Unfortunately, one a@*$!*e in the partnership made it pretty unpleasant.
So, partnerships can be really wonderful IF the personalities fit. That being said, I think it would be hard for me to have a partner in this airplane if he or she did not take part in the building process with me. So, my beautiful, rivet gun wielding, drill press and band saw wizard of a wife is the best partner ever.
 
I still try to fly around 100 hours per year. I retired 8 years ago and now all my flying cost me nothing. I am just spending my kids heritance.
 
A little lucky I guess

I did some rough calculations on the 12. First I wrote off 80k for the build (tools, etc, and all the options).

Next I calculated about 60 per hour "fully burdened" With hangar, insurance, full fuel burn and a little for overhaul. For every hour I fly I plan on depositing 120.00 to the airplane fund. I spend a little more torrent anyway.

It will take me 20 years to reach TBO at which time without interest I should have about 140k in the fund. At that point I will retire and the 140k ( with god willing no thanks to the democrats some interest) I should be able to fly another 20 without dipping into anything but the flying fund. By then I will be 78. If I live to be 78 and fly 4000 hours I will die a very happy man.

But then there is that other plane I have been looking at since I started the 12 that I just might have to have too :)
 
It' certainly doesn't have the performance, but the magic is still there...

I've been thinking about this problem for a week now. It's not a very fun point to ponder, as none of us ever wants to think about no longer flying.

What if you sold your RV :)eek: I know, not fun to think about either) and bought a real nice Cub?
No electrical system to have problems with, no expensive avionics, and a low fuel burn. Just low and slow in one of the most magical planes ever built.

My .02
 
It isn't an RV, but I love it just as much. If you are into economy check out the Quickie Q1. 100+ mpg. Hope you don't plan on bringing anyone with you though :)
 
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