Pulling the trigger in the right order?

Hello Air Force! So this is my first serious post. I?ve been a lurker for a long time, and have been dreaming of building an RV since they first came out. Even went to the factory when it was still at Van's house and met the man himself and received a personal tour!
I?ve settled on a -9/-9a (sporty enough, yet easy to fly) in hopes to teach my 4 grandsons to fly someday. The decision I?m sort of struggling with is this. Simply put, engine first or aircraft first? My plan is and will be, unless there is some VERY persuasive argument against it, is to buy a high time engine, and rebuild it myself. My sons and I have built many super expensive race engines over the years that require at least as much attention to detail as an aircraft engine.
The point to all of this is that I think I would feel more comfortable starting the project working on a familiar type of job. Am I nuts? (rhetorical question for my family members) Or should I start with the empennage kit?

Mike

Congratulations on your decision to build! If you're comfortable with engines, why not start there? The only major consideration would be to "pickle" it well so that the internals don't develop corrosion while you're working on the rest of the airframe.

Happy building to you!

Welcome to VAF!!!!

Coolerfixer said:

Hello Air Force! So this is my first serious post. I?ve been a lurker for a long time,
Mike

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Mike, welcome to VAF----missed your first (not serious) post, so guess this belated welcome has to to.

A couple of ideas come to mind on your question, and I will throw them out to you.

Reality is that many folks who start a homebuilt never finish it, and end up selling before it is done---so from that perspective which is more salable---- an engine rebuilt by a first timer non A/P, or a kit plane started by same??

From the standpoint that you will finish it, I would consider the fact that the building of the airframe is a new experience to you, while engines---even if not aircraft-----are familiar. Your learning curve will be a lot steeper on the airframe, than the engine I suspect. So, the engine will be a good introduction, and help you to gain confidence and motivation. As you state in your last line.

Either way, you are embarking down a long road. Long, but luckily not a lonely road.

Joining VAF was a good idea, also get into a local EAA chapter if there is one close by.

Good luck, enjoy the ride

Coolerfixer said:

Hello Air Force! So this is my first serious post. I?ve been a lurker for a long time, and have been dreaming of building an RV since they first came out. Even went to the factory when it was still at Van's house and met the man himself and received a personal tour!
I?ve settled on a -9/-9a (sporty enough, yet easy to fly) in hopes to teach my 4 grandsons to fly someday. The decision I?m sort of struggling with is this. Simply put, engine first or aircraft first? My plan is and will be, unless there is some VERY persuasive argument against it, is to buy a high time engine, and rebuild it myself. My sons and I have built many super expensive race engines over the years that require at least as much attention to detail as an aircraft engine.
The point to all of this is that I think I would feel more comfortable starting the project working on a familiar type of job. Am I nuts? (rhetorical question for my family members) Or should I start with the empennage kit?

Mike

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Mike,

Keep in mind that if your high-time engine requires an extensive overhaul you will have almost as many $$$$$'s invested as you would with a new engine.

I suggest you get started building the airframe. You have plenty of time to make a decision on the engine. I suspect as you get more involved in the project and it starts looking like an airplane that you will "see" flying it with one of the several good choices of new engines.

Enjoy your project! You are embarking on a very enjoyable journey, especially with the grandkids in tow.

From my own experiences, I would also vote for doing the airframe first. Despite a good pickle job, I would far prefer to do my first flight on a FRESH engine, not ne that has sat for a long period. I would tend to use the engine build later on as a respite from pounding rivets and playing with aluminum. Either way you are a winner!

OK I'll Take the Other Side

You want to rebuild the engine and have relevant experience with that kind of work so follow your desire. That is obviously your comfort zone and committing to the project this way will have less starter shock for you. By the time you get spooled up on the engine ("My sons and I have built many super expensive race engines over the years that require at least as much attention to detail as an aircraft engine." emphasis added) your decision to build or what to build may change. There will always be a market for a well built engine but less interest in airplane subassemblies. As this is going on you can attend a sheetmetal aircraft builders course which really will just be a quick introduction to the tools and techniques for you and it will seem like a continuing process rather than a new one.

Bob Axsom

I think Bob understands me....

Bob distills what I've been thinking. The whole idea is this is a hobby or pastime if you will. It's gonna cost money no matter which way I go. Some how I have it in my head that I could recoup some costs a little easier with the engine. I understand the concept of a fresh engine vs one that's been pickled as someone noted. I kinda like the idea of running the engine on a stand in my driveway every once in a while too, LOL.
As my screen-name implies, I work in the HVAC field, and have destroyed endless amounts of sheet metal through the years, thus maybe my hesitance in starting the aircraft. Honestly I was not impressed with my toolbox from Van's, maybe I need to make a couple dozen more! You guys make it sound like the riveting is the easy part, but I sure messed it up. I have fabbed up a DRDT2 frame, just need the front end kit, maybe that would give me more confidence in the feasibility of ME building a plane.
Thanks for letting me think out loud on the board here.

Mike

P.S. Besides Wentworth and Ebay, where do I look for a decent rebuilder engine?

Coolerfixer said:

Besides Wentworth and Ebay, where do I look for a decent rebuilder engine?

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Mike, that is the $18,000 question.

Unless you know the history of the particular engine you purchase....it is a roll of the dice. I bought a mid-time engine from Wentworth, decent logs, wind damaged in Florida. My intention was to fly it for a few hundred hours then rebuild.

I ended up doing a total overhaul 140 hours later when it became obvious the cam was totally shot. I ended up with $16,000+ in the engine when new Lycs from Vans were selling for $19K.

As an EAA Technical Counselor, I have advised many builders to buy a new engine even if it is necessary to finance. I believe the new engine offers by far the most value per buck. But you may other reasons for wanting to build an engine than mere practicality. It is, after all, a hobby. But many builders who intended to fly with minimal cost have experienced project creep after deciding they want a first class engine to go in their very nice new airplane. If they had purchased a used engine early in the process, they would have ended up buying two engines.

Keep in mind that if you rebuild an engine, it will have limited resale value. It can't be put into a certificated aircraft as is, and most experimental builders will be hesitant about buying an engine overhauled by a non-A&P.

Good question Mike!

If you build up an engine first and then try to sell it, you are going to lose money. The reason is that you are not a well know engine shop, and anyone buying your engine is taking a gamble.

The airframe could take a few years to get ready to hang the engine, and even if you pickle it, your engine will still be a few years old. (Keep in mind, my first engine was overhauled in ?59 and pickled. Prior to the first flight, I simply replaced all the rubber parts, which included pulling the cylinders, and fired it up. It ran good for 250 hours until I hit something with it.)

The other down side is that you can easily spend $15K rebuilding an engine and for that much money you can buy a brand new kit engine with everything being zero timed.

I would suggest you start on the airframe and keep your eye open for a good deal on an engine or engine kit.

Mike,

Ive built three RV's and bought a mid time engine for the first build very early in the project. One great thing about our hobby is technology is changing fast and we are benefiting from great new products for both engine and avionics. I would definitely start with the airframe and wait on the engine decision.

Pat

What Sam and Don said...

Good points on both sides

I don't think I'm all that close to buying an engine, but the 1700 plus bucks for the empennage kit may be the way to go with the least monetary risk. The decision is mine as I'm fortunate to have a wife who is supportive of my dreams, so I don't have to talk her into this.
Thanks to all for your input! I think I will digest and cogitate on this a few more days.


Mike

I still back your plan Coolerfixer - in a way

You are an experienced engine builder and cost alone is not the driving force in your case. When you are done you will be in a whole different place than the average builder - you will KNOW your engine as more than a bolt on power source. I think that is a good thing. If you start with the engine you may fail but I don't think so. I think you will have established a starting point where you have confidence from past achievement. I think you feel very uncomfortable about the build up of the airplane and I agree with that discomfort too.

Eventually you will have to face the music and do it but it might be easier if you have accomplished something in the creation process before taking on the structures and sysems. Van's are VERY sophisticated high quality designs that require you learn how to do use different technologies as you proceed through the build process. That is a good thing too! Quite often you have to recognize new demands and tools and methods for dealing with them. Everytime you work through these challenges you pull yourself up to a new skill level.

One thing that gave me pause was you statement about Van's tool box which I think is one of the introductory training projects for learning to work with sheetmetal in an airplane building sense. If you are not proud of your work on that then I think you need to ask why? What is it about the finished product that causes you anxiety? If you can't drill accurately, debur, dimple, countersink, install rivets in difficult applications, form metal, visualize and make custom parts from raw stock, etc. you are going to have a lot of difficulty building the airplane.

However, you can learn and a formal training program is the place to start, not the airplane itself. In 2 or 3 days you will be experienced enough to start the real work on a basic level. I think you have to take a craftman's view of the project and not brute force through the project using common sense and past experience assembling things for you HVAC systems or hardware store projects for example. This is something that you have to dedicate yourself to in "failure is not an option" and "layman's good enough is simply not good enough" fashion. Anyone can do this but it is a demanding task that once acccomplished will put you on a different skill level. If you don't want to commit to the pursuit of excellence at this time you may want to back off and think about what you are getting yourself into before you start spending time and money.

You know as I write this I am talking myself into the other camp. I guess after careful thought I think your best bet would be to get the training you need at one of these weekend or 2 or 3 day classes to learn the tools and techniques and start with building the the tail.

Bob Axsom

I just read your Post

I just read your recent post - good move. You are very lucky to have that lady and a you are a good man to recognize your good fortune.

Bob Axsom

Coolerfixer said:

I don't think I'm all that close to buying an engine, but the 1700 plus bucks for the empennage kit may be the way to go with the least monetary risk. The decision is mine as I'm fortunate to have a wife who is supportive of my dreams, so I don't have to talk her into this.
Thanks to all for your input! I think I will digest and cogitate on this a few more days.


Mike

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Mike,
It sounds like you are an original Vans RV person, from when he lived in North Plains. Me too.

It also sounds like you are willing and confident to rebuild an engine. Although the near 2000 hours to do the aircraft construction assembly while learning the various skills is a lot to jump into with out experience. Although it can be extremely rewarding. You are smart to consider doing an empennage kit after a workshop class, to start. Whichever way you go it will be fun.

Welcome to VAF, Mike (it's cool that your real first post was providing info instead of asking a question, but this thread kinda "qualifies" as a first post since it fits the standard pattern).

I had a lot of trepidation about the airframe metalwork, too, but I just took Wally Anderson's beginning class at Synergy Air, and I'll probably be taking his full-week emp class next. It's an excellent introduction to this kind of work, especially in the "tribal knowledge" that Wally shares that isn't really written up anywhere else. The classes are in Eugene OR, so like me, given that you're right next door, you'll find it easy to travel to the class.

Heck, I'd just give an arm and leg to have your engine experience before I get to FWF; even if I go with a new engine as I plan to, it'd still be nice to feel comfortable moving around up there.

I think that with the right attitude--builder, experimenter, tinkerer, doer--you're going to have a successful project whichever order you end up choosing.

--
Stephen

Just a thought.

Occasionally, there are other options for getting into an RV with a few examples as follows: an RV with a timed out engine; prop strike; near timed out engine; not been flown for years and needing some refurbishing; light damage; removed engine.

Another option may be a partially completed kit. These come on the market often.

Just a thought as to you wanting to concentrate mostly on the engine.

Enjoy it whatever you decide. You will have lots of support on this site.

Either way, if you're passionate about flying, you'll find "your" way of doing things.

My suggestion to you would be the same I'd have if you wanted to get a computer: I'd wait thill the very last moment to buy one (engine). To make sure you get the most up-to-date and performant one available for the money... and benefit from upgrades that are now considered standard practice.

You might spend 3-4 or 5 years building your RV9. The kit is not gona change over time so purshasing it now is the logical choice.

Also, as you progress in you kit building, you'll have all the time to monitor available engines, their prices fluctuation and engines for sale in your area... If you take 6 or 7 years to build, you might catch one of those new Lycoming next Gen engine by then! So I'd wait it out on the engine and start with the metal, if it was me! On a side note as someone mentionned it earlier, if you build the engine now and fly only in 5 years +, I'd be concerned about corrosion and deffects when you're ready to install it....

build the plane First!

Mike, I like the more traditional approach of building the plane first for all the reasons posted so far. You might want to take a weekend course from Sport Workshop on sheet metal. This will help to introduce you to sheet metal basics and increase your confidence. Here is the link for their schedule.
http://www.sportair.com/schedule.html
There is one in northern California in March. Remember building a plane is an adventure in its self. The plane is built in subsections. You built the tail first, like you said its the least expensive. That way if it takes you a long time or you never get it done then that is indication of where you should go from there. If you are worried about sheet metal work then take a look at the RV12. Its very easy to build and very economical to fly when done, but you wont get the fun of rebuilding the engine. Good Luck

I am comfortable working with sheet metal, just not the favorite part of my job. I actually don't need to buy much in the way of sheet metal tools.
Because I tend to be a perfectionist (my sons say I'm anal), I just wasn't pleased with the way the toolbox turned out. That rivet gun can get away from you fast! I hate the idea of ruining some spendy airplane parts because of my lack of ability. There's not too much on an RV that resembles ductwork yaknow! I'd love to take a class, but my job limits my time away right now. Once again, thanks for listening to me think "out loud" here.

Mike

I found that when the rivet gun wanted to get away from me, I had too much air pressure, or I was not holding the gun perpendicular to the surface.

Another problem is holding the trigger down too long.

Practice -----

Engine Source

Another potential engine source is White Industries (Bates City, MO). Web site is: http://whiteindustries.com/

The engine links take you to charts showing crankshaft runout, prop strike info, hours, etc.

As with most salvage yards their inventory changes frequently.

Good luck,
Mike

Coolerfixer said:

I am comfortable working with sheet metal, just not the favorite part of my job. I actually don't need to buy much in the way of sheet metal tools.
Because I tend to be a perfectionist (my sons say I'm anal), I just wasn't pleased with the way the toolbox turned out. That rivet gun can get away from you fast! I hate the idea of ruining some spendy airplane parts because of my lack of ability. There's not too much on an RV that resembles ductwork yaknow! I'd love to take a class, but my job limits my time away right now. Once again, thanks for listening to me think "out loud" here.

Mike

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When I began building, I had absolutely NO experience with sheet metal but it doesn't take long working on the empenage to start getting good results. Try to avoid taking LONG breaks in the construction as I seem to have to re-learn my riveting technique when I allow that to occur.

Mike S said:

I found that when the rivet gun wanted to get away from me, I had too much air pressure, or I was not holding the gun perpendicular to the surface.

Another problem is holding the trigger down too long.

Practice -----

Click to expand...

I've found the same, plus I find I get MUCH better results if I have the work well-secured, especially setting universal head rivets. You can hold the gun and bar as steady as you want and still get poor results when the work moves around on you.