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Relentless Gets EFii upgrade

Relentless

Well Known Member
I have been so impressed with testing EFii on several customer Titan engines, I decided to go all in for Relentless NXT this year. I can't wait to be able to manage the fuel with the precision of this system. Added bonus, Robert was able to program ECU to automatically manage ADI during race. This will greatly reduce the workload while chasing Race 43 this year...:D

Protech converted the stock induction in my GTSIO race engine.
296n1a0.jpg
 
Kevin,

I love the experimental work that your doing! I do have a couple of questions. Is there a reason in this setup that you didn't go with a fuel injector for each cylinder? Or are the two injectors that are in the picture for the ADI? Also does this setup have a mixture control?

Thanks,
Brian
 
EFII setup on GTSIO-550

Hi Brian,
In the pic, you can see the ADI injectors (Anti Detonation Injection).
There will be a gasoline injector on each intake tube.
You can also see the Throttle Position Sensor, and Intake Air Temp sensors.
Mixture control is automatic, though the pilot can modify it if desired.
Robert
 
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EFII on GTSIO

Here is a pic of some of the other parts involved to set up the GTSIO.
On the left is the crank trigger and trigger wheel. These go on the front of the crankshaft which is accessible under a cover plate under the propshaft.
On the right are the magneto block plates. These have Teflon bushings that locate the accessory drive gear and shaft which remain after the mag is removed.

Robert
GTSIO_zps40e5871a.jpg
 
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Thanks for the response! Any chance of installing one of these on a 9 cylinder Rotec engine, like the one on my RV-8? How difficult would it be to do both the fuel and ignition?
 
Look at his avatar photo.

Here is a shot of the plane from Reno, 2008.

DSC01680.jpg
 
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What about a....

From the looks of that fuel controller, it seems like it MIGHT be easy to convert a std (NA) engine to this system. I gotta hear more - I'm about to drop $$$ into mags and an O/H 550 fuel system. I'd hate to do that and then find out that this is about the same cost....!!!

Robert: will you be at Reno?

Carry on!
Mark
 
EFII at Reno

Yes, we will be at Reno, Thursday thru Sunday.
We will have a motorhome in the race support camping area.
Give me a call when you're there and we can look over the system on Relentless.
After this effort, we will be a short step away from having a full system for the direct drive big bore Continentals. Including integrated ADI control if you like lots of boost!

Robert
tel 951-317-3473
 
Mark, I expect the cost will be a bit higher for the EFII system on the big bore Continentals... but the results should be worth every penny. What variant of the IO-550? I'll see if we can get one over here in socal for Robert to look at AFTER Reno.
 
EFII

Mark, I expect the cost will be a bit higher for the EFII system on the big bore Continentals... but the results should be worth every penny. What variant of the IO-550? I'll see if we can get one over here in socal for Robert to look at AFTER Reno.

IO550N in this case - I actually have 2 of 'em...but I can explain!

Carry on!
Mark
 
My only request is you let is test on dyno before you blast off in your project.

That wouldn't be a problem at all... though I'm still a couple years away from needing (and being able to afford) an engine. Ground testing is good!

(Perhaps I'm biased as a ground test engineer :) )
 
That wouldn't be a problem at all... though I'm still a couple years away from needing (and being able to afford) an engine. Ground testing is good!

(Perhaps I'm biased as a ground test engineer :) )

How hard (expensive) is it to get your engine tested on a dyno? Where would you go for that?
 
Dyno

How hard (expensive) is it to get your engine tested on a dyno? Where would you go for that?

You could check with some of the airboat builders in your neck of the woods. Be sure to test it before and after you put Robert Paisley's EFII systems in. Bet you'll be surprised!

I'm sure happy with my dual ignition system from EFII.
 
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Be sure to test it before and after you put Robert Paisley's EFII systems in. Bet you'll be surprised!

Indeed you might.

I'm sure happy with my dual ignition system from EFII.

Conventional waste-spark inductive, using a proven SDS ECU, Subaru coils, and sensible timing. Good choice.
 
Continental EFii runs perfect so far!!!!

From the looks of that fuel controller, it seems like it MIGHT be easy to convert a std (NA) engine to this system. I gotta hear more - I'm about to drop $$$ into mags and an O/H 550 fuel system. I'd hate to do that and then find out that this is about the same cost....!!!

Robert: will you be at Reno?

Carry on!
Mark

Mark,

I will make sure I find you on the course and give a "special" fly-by so you can hear the engine purr with this new fuel system....:D
 
you gotta catch me first!

Mark,

I will make sure I find you on the course and give a "special" fly-by so you can hear the engine purr with this new fuel system....:D

I doubt I'll hear anything but a WHOOSH as you go by. I'm installing rear view mirrors as we speak so I can see you behind me...:eek:

See ya Saturday!

Carry on!
Mark
 
I doubt I'll hear anything but a WHOOSH as you go by. I'm installing rear view mirrors as we speak so I can see you behind me...:eek:

See ya Saturday!

Carry on!
Mark

Unfortunately not :(. Engine let go on the second test flight, according to their FB page.
 
Off Topic...a little

Could a Nemesis fly in the Unlimited Gold class if it had the power of a turbo prop and could fly those speeds?
(assuming it is beefed up to handle the greater stresses)

Or must power be piston only and not just the power to fly in class?

I'd bet that with 700-800 shp it might out run the Mustangs and Bearcats.

Glenn Wilkinson
 
Could a Nemesis fly in the Unlimited Gold class if it had the power of a turbo prop and could fly those speeds?
(assuming it is beefed up to handle the greater stresses)

Or must power be piston only and not just the power to fly in class?

I'd bet that with 700-800 shp it might out run the Mustangs and Bearcats.

Glenn Wilkinson


An Unlimited Class race plane has to be capable of 6G's, piston powered, propellor driven, and weigh more than 4500lbs empty.
 
Could a Nemesis fly in the Unlimited Gold class if it had the power of a turbo prop and could fly those speeds?
(assuming it is beefed up to handle the greater stresses)

Or must power be piston only and not just the power to fly in class?

I'd bet that with 700-800 shp it might out run the Mustangs and Bearcats.

Glenn Wilkinson

600-700HP gets you to around 400mph around the course at Stead. Give or take 20 for airframe. That has been the ceiling on the sport class for a while now. Nobody has yet built a motor/prop combo that can semi-reliably put down bigger numbers than that. LS based motor might make more, but PSRU and Prop are big issues. IO-540/-550 run into prop efficiency issues past 3200rpm or so, to say nothing of valvetrain issues. Gear lumps like the GTSIO-520/550 that Kevin has are finicky at stock power settings, and are VERY experimental with the builders (not much experience building them out there) and with the setup.

Then there is the IO-720. Very often tried, but lots of design issues related to the overall length of the engine and crank stiffness.

I'm bummed Relentless won't be there this year, but with the GTSIO, not particularly surprised.
 
600-700HP gets you to around 400mph around the course at Stead. Give or take 20 for airframe. That has been the ceiling on the sport class for a while now. Nobody has yet built a motor/prop combo that can semi-reliably put down bigger numbers than that. LS based motor might make more, but PSRU and Prop are big issues. IO-540/-550 run into prop efficiency issues past 3200rpm or so, to say nothing of valvetrain issues. Gear lumps like the GTSIO-520/550 that Kevin has are finicky at stock power settings, and are VERY experimental with the builders (not much experience building them out there) and with the setup.

Then there is the IO-720. Very often tried, but lots of design issues related to the overall length of the engine and crank stiffness.

I'm bummed Relentless won't be there this year, but with the GTSIO, not particularly surprised.

The top Sport Class engines have been putting out over 750+hp for a number of years now and both the direct drive Lycoming 540 and Conti 550s have been reliable if screwed together properly and operated properly, even with MAP as high as 75-80 inches and 3200 rpm. The fuel and spark department has to be dead on as do the turbos, ADI, spray bar systems. There is no room for error or malfunction at these power levels.

Success depends a lot on much high power flight testing prior to the event to make sure everything is just right. With the GTSIO, I don't think anyone has proven the reliability of the gearbox at these hp levels. Potentially, the geared engine is the way to go to make a lot more power and improve prop efficiency but there is some work to do to make it reliable. Darryl Greenamayer didn't have good success with his attempts at using a geared Conti a few years back either.
 
I never imagined that those engines could produce that much power.

I suppose they'll have to go to nitromethane to get any more power. :D

A top fuel sport class racer.....

OR

A funny plane.....

Glenn Wilkinson
 
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The top Sport Class engines have been putting out over 750+hp for a number of years now and both the direct drive Lycoming 540 and Conti 550s have been reliable if screwed together properly and operated properly, even with MAP as high as 75-80 inches and 3200 rpm. The fuel and spark department has to be dead on as do the turbos, ADI, spray bar systems. There is no room for error or malfunction at these power levels.

Success depends a lot on much high power flight testing prior to the event to make sure everything is just right. With the GTSIO, I don't think anyone has proven the reliability of the gearbox at these hp levels. Potentially, the geared engine is the way to go to make a lot more power and improve prop efficiency but there is some work to do to make it reliable. Darryl Greenamayer didn't have good success with his attempts at using a geared Conti a few years back either.

Darryl/Andy Lancair didn't have any gearbox issues that I know of after they switched from a custom planetary setup welded on the nose of an IO-550 case to the GTSIO case with the lousy Conti spur reduction. Part of the compromise was switching to a less-efficient 4 blade MT prop to keep the gearbox alive, but they were having trouble pushing enough fuel last I knew.

Kevin has that all sorted out :D. Still engine builder and setup has a huge part to do with longevity during a race. I don't know any details, but a failure on the second test flight would lead me to guess (GUESS) that they weren't even too deep in the power when it stoppppped. I'm not super close to either program, but I've talked to both guys and had other indirect contact throughout the last few years since I've been to Reno. I'm not a fan of the GTSIO in this application, but I'm ready to have someone like Kevin prove me wrong... :eek:
 
Darryl/Andy Lancair didn't have any gearbox issues that I know of after they switched from a custom planetary setup welded on the nose of an IO-550 case to the GTSIO case with the lousy Conti spur reduction. Part of the compromise was switching to a less-efficient 4 blade MT prop to keep the gearbox alive, but they were having trouble pushing enough fuel last I knew.

Kevin has that all sorted out :D. Still engine builder and setup has a huge part to do with longevity during a race. I don't know any details, but a failure on the second test flight would lead me to guess (GUESS) that they weren't even too deep in the power when it stoppppped. I'm not super close to either program, but I've talked to both guys and had other indirect contact throughout the last few years since I've been to Reno. I'm not a fan of the GTSIO in this application, but I'm ready to have someone like Kevin prove me wrong... :eek:

The stock Conti FI is unsuited to properly metering the fuel flows required at these hp levels and this is where many of their problems were, Andy and crew were changing jug after jug after almost every high power test flight. This was a well known problem which is why Mike Dacey switched to EFI in the Venture with the Conti 550. All those problems went away after this and he won the Gold Championship in 2010 and had no engine issues over the course of 3 race seasons, test flying and transiting the aircraft. In fact, the engine was untouched internally for 4 years (Lycon built).

The tiny planetary gearbox welded to the front of the case wouldn't have lasted even a few minutes at race power (and didn't) plus the engine never ran long enough at race power due to burned pistons/ FI issues to know if the stock Conti spur gear was capable of handling 900+hp and in unknown prop/gearbox TV territory (doubtfully IMO). This is more than double the output as installed in the C421.

Like I said, nobody has enough hours at these hp levels to prove that this is a reliable setup for racing. Best to get the thing on a dyno and flog it for a while at race power before putting in the airframe. The geared engines have the potential to make 20-25% more power than the direct drive ones but there are many unknowns running at 80 inches and 4000 rpm.

I hope Kevin or someone else continues to pursue the geared concept. With enough work, $ and testing, it should be able to be reliable.
 
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Right, I feel that both gear reduction and the IO-720 haven't had the engineering thrown at them to get them reliable at race power. With the resources Kevin has available to him, my hope is that he sets Relentless up with a nice IO580 or IO550 with a bunch of boost so he can race the next few years, and then pursues the geared engine with lots of ground running. If nothing else, the GP5 is a reminder that it's easy to lose your life that close to the edge.

I'm thinking the geared engineering might be better used on an LS7 than the 550. The IO-720 still peaks my interest though.
 
Right, I feel that both gear reduction and the IO-720 haven't had the engineering thrown at them to get them reliable at race power. With the resources Kevin has available to him, my hope is that he sets Relentless up with a nice IO580 or IO550 with a bunch of boost so he can race the next few years, and then pursues the geared engine with lots of ground running. If nothing else, the GP5 is a reminder that it's easy to lose your life that close to the edge.

I'm thinking the geared engineering might be better used on an LS7 than the 550. The IO-720 still peaks my interest though.

Yes, Kevin is in a good position now with Titan to come up with a powerful and reliable package for future years and I believe a 550 or 580 Conti would be the immediate path to pursue to get back on top of the pile.

Ultimately though, I agree that a liquid cooled, automotive solution is key to pushing the hp and speeds well above what they are now. I'm thinking more 700-900 inch Mountain motors with mild turbocharging. These would easily double the hp of the best current aircraft engines in the class. Of course Titan does not do liquid cooled V8s so that might not be in the cards for Relentless.

In the end though, success in racing comes to those who are well prepared and well tested, well prior to the event. You need confidence that everything will perform predictably and reliably come race day, not only with the powerplant/ prop, but also the airframe. The NXT is flutter validated to very high speeds so that is less of a worry than other airframes which are in somewhat unexplored territory. For sure, these speeds, altitudes, wakes and mid day turbulence present dangers most of us will never experience in our every day flying. I have deep respect for every pilot racing at Reno.

Looking forward to see Kevin to duke it out with the other RVs and Rockets in the RV8 anyway to see how the big inch four performs.:)
 
Looking forward to see Kevin to duke it out with the other RVs and Rockets in the RV8 anyway to see how the big inch four performs.:)

Must be sandbagging. So far, all the RV-8's are close in qualifying.

Ya'll see that Lavelle ripped off a lap at almost 410?
 
Must be sandbagging. So far, all the RV-8's are close in qualifying.

Ya'll see that Lavelle ripped off a lap at almost 410?

Dan,

We are all within a 3-4mph window... great racing! I had a horrible rookie Qual, but my practice yesterday I found a bag of MPH sitting on the course:D

Kevin:



Me:

Regards,

Scott
 
What engine is in your -8? I think Kevin's is the Parallel valve 409. Doesn't seem to be doing bad against the rest.
 
What engine is in your -8? I think Kevin's is the Parallel valve 409. Doesn't seem to be doing bad against the rest.

So how does Reno work anyway? If I read the rules correctly, the heat races sort the qualifiers into 3 finals (Bronze, Silver, and Gold).

Everybody gets to fly in 3 heats?

Is assignment to Bronze, Silver, or Gold is based on the fastest speed recorded by a racer in any heat?

This year there seems to be 33 qualifiers. Each of the three finals has a maximum of 9 racers, so all the heats eliminate the slowest 6?

Right now, none of the -8's are going as fast as Jason Rovey did last year, and all are close to elimination.
 
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Hmmm now I am beginning to see the inspiration and inquiries, perhaps Dan H maybe racing next year. Should be pretty fast. close that exit and push throttle forward :D

Bird
 
No, not really. Kevin posted about piston chunks falling out the drain plug...

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=917455&highlight=piston#post917455

...and apparently they were exiting elsewhere too, judging from a photo floating around in email.

Stuff happens.

34ov8m1.jpg

Holy BMEP Batman! That label says 770 HP! Not totally surprising it is that high, just that they made an actual label for it.

On some engines when the piston is gone and the pin is the only thing to center the con rod, it cocks and the big end rod bolt will ventilate the case. I guess they used all the clearance for stroke in this "case".

Little story - my friend called me to a production test cell one day. It was a 16 liter I-6 diesel. The #2 piston had seized and pulled the top off. The pins are short so it got a lot of rattle. Shortly the rod flailed at full extension and cut the engine in half. The only thing holding the engine together was the head. No block, camshaft, oil pan, nothing but the crank and head. Just sitting there on the dyno, 3 seconds and all over. Chunks of concrete block on the side of the cell missing too. - Yep, stuff happens. Good thing this one stayed together.
 
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EZ fix

That doesn't look too bad. Probably just clean the oil off real good and put some JB weld on it. If you can't find all the pieces no problem, just take some steel wool and saturate it with the JB weld and stuff it in the hole. EZ fix. Better let it set at least 24 hours tho before you fly it to make sure its cured well. LOL

Never take the stuff you read on the interweb too seriously!!!!!
 
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