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ZipTips Premiere Winglet – Van’s RV10-RV14

rjarrell

Member
Need help/answers with my winglet installation for RV-14 build. Using the W-00026 (aileron neutral position template), from RV-14 plans 23-10 4/15/19 rev. 0, my tips come out 1/2 below the aileron. verified the template with my RV-10 built in 2014 and the manufacturing hole location. Also pulled a wingtip and it fits in the -14 wing or would with very little adjustment. FYI I have spoken to Damien at Aveo, Kevin at Vans (build assist) and previously added to another thread with no response.

Damien says he has sent out over 50 of these (not sure if they were -10 or -14's or the count of each) and has heard no complaints. Van's has no idea what going on but was very nice and would be interested is an answer also. All I see posted are pics of opening the boxes containing these tips no actual installations.

Any help, pics recommendation would be greatly appreciated (I'm married so don't worry about seeing a mistake I made and hurting my feelings). Thanks in advance.

ZipTip more than 1/2" off
1-%20tip%20Half%20inch%20%2B%20off-X3.jpg


Right ZipTip with W-00026 in place
2-R%20with%20W-00026%20in%20place-X3.jpg


Right wingtip
3-Right%20wing%20tip-X3.jpg


Right wingtip bottom
4-Right%20tip%20bottom-X3.jpg


Right straight edge
5-Right%20straight%20edge-X3.jpg


Left wingtip
7-Left%20wing%20tip-X3.jpg


Left with W-00026
8-L%20with%20W-00026-X3.jpg


Comparing RV-10 (blue) and RV-14 (white) ZipTips
9-Matched%2010%20and%2014%20tips-X3.jpg


RV-10 ZipTip matched to RV-14 wing
10-RV10%20wingtip-X3.jpg


Bracket on RV-10
11-Bracket%20on%20RV-10-XL.jpg
 
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I don't really know if this helps, but just a thought:

The RV-10 and RV-14 airfoil is designed to have the flaps and ailerons rigged to cruise with some negative (trailing edge up) deflection. Is it possible that the tips were not made to include that reflex in the aileron rig position?
 
Got any photos of the winglets? (Not wingtips but winglets).

Reason I'm asking is that winglets usually increase the wing's bending moment, and generally aftermarket winglets may or may not factor that in, either by changing the operating limitations or by selective reinforcement or other means.

Sometimes they affect the flutter speed, too.... winglets can offer some advantages but might also have negatives.

Dave
 
I don't really know if this helps, but just a thought:

The RV-10 and RV-14 airfoil is designed to have the flaps and ailerons rigged to cruise with some negative (trailing edge up) deflection. Is it possible that the tips were not made to include that reflex in the aileron rig position?

Looks to me like the new wingtip is below the aileron. Looks like a reflection from the other wing in a wing stand. :confused:
 
Wait until the wings are on the airplane and the flaps and ailerons are mounted in fight mode, with the elevator fixed in the trail position.
I found that the template got close to the right position but the linkage needed some final adjustments. Then you can mount the tips to see if you really do have a problem
 
Wait until the wings are on the airplane and the flaps and ailerons are mounted in fight mode, with the elevator fixed in the trail position.
I found that the template got close to the right position but the linkage needed some final adjustments. Then you can mount the tips to see if you really do have a problem

Awesome, this is kinda where I'm at right now. I can split the glass at the end right up to the rear position strobe light and adjust it. Just hoping there was a better way. Thanks for your reply. Rodney
 
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Does anyone have any pictures of their wings finished with the new "winglet" ZipTips that shows them fitting properly?

Thanks!
 
Got any photos of the winglets? (Not wingtips but winglets).

Reason I'm asking is that winglets usually increase the wing's bending moment, and generally aftermarket winglets may or may not factor that in, either by changing the operating limitations or by selective reinforcement or other means.

Sometimes they affect the flutter speed, too.... winglets can offer some advantages but might also have negatives.

Dave

I'm not sure what any of that would have to do with the alignment of the straight part of wingtip with the aileron as shown in any of the photos, but if you want to see the curved part of the Aveo Premier ZipTip (not the straight part in question) look at the photos on Aveo's site here.
 
I understand completely, but our question is regarding the fitment of the Aveo Premier ZipTips to the wings, not the aerodynamics of them.

Thanks!
 
Looks to me like the new wingtip is below the aileron. Looks like a reflection from the other wing in a wing stand. :confused:

I think that is correct. The aileron is reflexed up, and it looks like the wingtip was made for a zero-reflex position of the aileron.
 
I think that is correct. The aileron is reflexed up, and it looks like the wingtip was made for a zero-reflex position of the aileron.

Ok. I don’t have my plans here and don’t remember if the jig rigs the aileron neutral or reflexed. Sorry if I misinterpreted your comment. :eek:
 

If you are saying these instructions align the aileron so that they correspond to the 0° flap position, then your interpretation of these instructions is not correct.

The neutral position of the bell crank template and the aileron template is for the cruise position of the aileron, which is reflexed, -3° as is the flap.

I don't know what the posters problem with his zip tips are, but they should align with the ailerons when they are in the reflex (cruise) position. Same as his 10.
 
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If you are saying these instructions align the aileron so that they correspond to the 0° flap position, then your interpretation of these instructions is not correct.

The neutral position of the bell crank template and the aileron template is for the cruise position of the aileron, which is reflexed, -3° for the flap.

I don't know what the posters problem with his zip tips are, but they should align with the ailerons when they are in the reflex position.

Don't confuse Ziptips with winglets same manufacturer but very different. This is my 3rd set of tips the others were all Ziptips and worked out fine. They take some tweaking to get them lined up before you drill for nuplates but they work. The Winglet, I assume because it gets relative wind is much thinker and stiffer. Once fitted in the the end of the wing it doesn't want to budge. All the tips I installed so far were on a -10 and all worked out great. In one of the pics i removed my -10 tip and put it on the -14 and that worked.

Speaking with Van's and Aveo now looking for a solution... everyone is looking for an answer and we will have one soon. Your input and ideas are invaluable in this process, thanks for taking your time to help out. I'd rather be building also.
 
...I don't know what the posters problem with his zip tips are, but they should align with the ailerons when they are in the reflex (cruise) position. Same as his 10.

Thanks Bob. The following screenshots and photos should very clearly show the issue. With the RV-14 to establish the neutral position of the ailerons you use an alignment bracket W-00026. This eliminates any guesswork.

As you can see from the third image we have this bracket in place, and you can see the gap that exists. The last photo shows the actual measurement of the differences in the trailing edges of the aileron and the wingtip in the aileron neutral position.

As Rodney has said a couple of times, these winglet wingtips are different than the standard Aveo wingtips as they're over twice as thick, hence they can't be manhandled into place like the standard ones can. He has installed two sets already so he's painfully aware of the differences in the two types of tips and the 10 and 14 installations.

It's obvious that Aveo did NOT match the winglet tips up to a 14 wing using the W-00025 alignment brackets. I'm guessing that they "assumed" the 14's wing's ailerons were aligned like the 10 and used the same molds, and also failed to consider there's virtually any give to the much thicker winglet tips.

They say that a picture is worth a thousand words so the following should be worth more than I can type here! :)

41-7-L.jpg


23-10-X2.jpg


W-00026-L.jpg


Measurement-XL.jpg
 
Here's a picture of the W-00026 aileron alignment bracket installation:

W-00026-1-XL.jpg

Steve,

It is totally obvious from your photo that the alignment template is establishing a "neutral" position that is reflexed 3 degrees TE up.

Just set a straight edge on the wing skin spanning the aileron hinge on both upper and lower surface and you will see it.

Obviously the winglet manufacturer didn't build the winglet-tips with that reflex included.
 
Obviously the winglet manufacturer didn't build the winglet-tips with that reflex included.

Maybe but not necessarily......

Even the standard vans wing tips have enough flexibility that they can be installed with the trailing edge not aligned with the T.E. of the aileron.
That is why the manual specifies that the aileron be locked in the proper neutral position and then the wing tip positioned to match it.

Now if the tips being discussed have a lighting cavity premolded in that prevents the the leading edge from changing shape slightly is it is pulled into the leading edge of the wing, then I would agree that the tips are shaped wrong.
 
Steve,

On my 14, with Van's wingtips, I had to man handle them into place a very small amount. I attributed this to the molding process variability and the fit was easily made perfect.

I wasn't sure from your first posts pictures what was actually the cause of the gap, manufacturing error or your aileron alignment. Having given your posts a good look again, the aileron positioning appears correct so I am as surprised at the gap as you are.

As you know, the 14 and 10 wing geometry are the same, so the manufacturing of the wing tips should be the same for both. Your comparison to the 10 wing tip does seem to show a marked difference that should not be there.
 
Thanks Scott and Bob;

And therein lies the problem.... yes, you can "adjust" the standard Van's tips AND the Aveo standard "non-winglet" tips as there is enough give that you can adjust them. The issue with the Aveo winglet tips is that they're over twice as thick and MUCH more rigid so they can't be flexed to adjust to the angle of the ailerons.

As far as I can tell (someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong) we're the first installers to actually fit the RV-10 or RV-14 Aveo WINGLET tips. IMO these pictures show beyond any shadow of a doubt there's a definite issue with the fitment of the Aveo winglet wing tips to the RV-10 or RV-14.
 
Thanks Scott and Bob;

And therein lies the problem.... yes, you can "adjust" the standard Van's tips AND the Aveo standard "non-winglet" tips as there is enough give that you can adjust them. The issue with the Aveo winglet tips is that they're over twice as thick and MUCH more rigid so they can't be flexed to adjust to the angle of the ailerons.

As far as I can tell (someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong) we're the first installers to actually fit the RV-10 or RV-14 Aveo WINGLET tips. IMO these pictures show beyond any shadow of a doubt there's a definite issue with the fitment of the Aveo winglet wing tips to the RV-10 or RV-14.

Steve,

I haven't touched my -10 wingtips yet. If you want to compare them to your zip tips I can bring one over.

Side note: that W-00026 jig seems nice. I wonder if it would work on the -10? I like that approach a lot better than the "align the aileron to the flap and clamp in place".
 
Steve,

I haven't touched my -10 wingtips yet. If you want to compare them to your zip tips I can bring one over.

Side note: that W-00026 jig seems nice. I wonder if it would work on the -10? I like that approach a lot better than the "align the aileron to the flap and clamp in place".
Thanks very much for the offer, but that won't be necessary. Given that we've verified that we're using the right alignment bracket, and that it's installed properly it's obvious that there is a molding issue with the Aveo WINGLET ZipTips.

I emphasize "Winglet" because they are approximately twice as thick as the regular ZipTips (which Rodney has already installed two separate pairs) or the standard Van's tips, and these can't be flexed and adjusted. Rodney took one measurement (I'm not sure exactly where) and the regular ZipTip was .0635" thick, and the new Winglet ZipTip was .13 in the same location.

And no, according to Van's support this alignment bracket isn't available for the RV-10 as its ailerons are supposed to be aligned in a different manner. However, if you look back in the previous pictures in this thread you'll see where Rodney did take one of his RV-10 regular ZipTips off and install the W-00026 bracket and it just so happens that it aligns perfectly with his ailerons. Look for the blue wing... that's his RV-10 "Liberty".

Thanks again!
 
Thanks very much for the offer, but that won't be necessary. Given that we've verified that we're using the right alignment bracket, and that it's installed properly it's obvious that there is a molding issue with the Aveo WINGLET ZipTips.

I emphasize "Winglet" because they are approximately twice as thick as the regular ZipTips (which Rodney has already installed two separate pairs) or the standard Van's tips, and these can't be flexed and adjusted. Rodney took one measurement (I'm not sure exactly where) and the regular ZipTip was .0635" thick, and the new Winglet ZipTip was .13 in the same location.

And no, according to Van's support this alignment bracket isn't available for the RV-10 as its ailerons are supposed to be aligned in a different manner. However, if you look back in the previous pictures in this thread you'll see where Rodney did take one of his RV-10 regular ZipTips off and install the W-00026 bracket and it just so happens that it aligns perfectly with his ailerons. Look for the blue wing... that's his RV-10 "Liberty".

Thanks again!

Yeah on the 10 you align the ailerons to the flaps. And looking through this thread the 14 is aligned in reflex.. which is where (I assume) the flaps rest on the 10. Given the shared parts between the two models (ribs, ailerons, wing tips) I'm curious if/what difference there is in the setups and how the winglet zip tips are off this much along with why the alignment bracket can't be used on the 10.

If we ever have an EAA meeting again maybe I can take a tracing of your alignment bracket?
 
Yeah on the 10 you align the ailerons to the flaps. And looking through this thread the 14 is aligned in reflex.. which is where (I assume) the flaps rest on the 10. Given the shared parts between the two models (ribs, ailerons, wing tips) I'm curious if/what difference there is in the setups and how the winglet zip tips are off this much along with why the alignment bracket can't be used on the 10.

Good question. I don't know. I do know when Rodney was researching this and talked to Van's support they said the end of the wing and the ailerons are exactly the same on the 10 and the 14, but the flaps were a different size. Perhaps that's why the ailerons have to be adjusted differently. However, as you can see from the picture that I posted previously (copy below) at least on Rodney's 10 the 14 alignment bracket lines up perfectly.

11-Bracket%20on%20RV-10-XL.jpg


If we ever have an EAA meeting again maybe I can take a tracing of your alignment bracket?

The plane and bracket are in Arizona, however I just looked and you can order one from Van's for $11.80! Click here. According to Van's support the W-00026 alignment bracket shown in the photo above is the newer bracket, and you can tell because it has a singular hole positioned between the large hole and the trailing edge.
 
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The plane and bracket are in Arizona, however I just looked and you can order one from Van's for $11.80! Click here. According to Van's support the W-00026 alignment bracket shown in the photo above is the newer bracket, and you can tell because it has a singular hole positioned between the large hole and the trailing edge.

Oh. Ha. I thought you were having the same issue!

Yeah I saw that the bracket is available to purchase. I’ve slowed down a bit to wait for the fuselage update for final drilled holes. If they post the instruction updates for that on the site I’ll see if the alignment bracket gets added. It sure would be nice to eliminate one variable.
 
any updates? I've just stumbled upon this thread while looking at the ZipTip Winglets for my -10 build. I'm curious as to the conclusion of this mystery.

Bob
 
I too would be interested in an update. I just put my order in for the empennage, so I'm a long way from wingtips. I saw the winglets at AirVenture, they looked great. I didn't know about them before seeing them at the show. I talked with Damian, and they were taking orders, and he did not indicate there was any issues or concern with fitment on the 14. It would be great if others that have successfully used the winglets on the 14 could add their input.

The question I did not think of asking Damian was about the design of the winglet. What testing was done, and the results. He did say there is a 1 mile increase in stall speed. How was that determined, and what are the verified benefits?
 
Just a heads up for readers the New method for rigging the aileron does NOT use the Jig. See image from 23-10 Rev 2


Good question. I don't know. I do know when Rodney was researching this and talked to Van's support they said the end of the wing and the ailerons are exactly the same on the 10 and the 14, but the flaps were a different size. Perhaps that's why the ailerons have to be adjusted differently. However, as you can see from the picture that I posted previously (copy below) at least on Rodney's 10 the 14 alignment bracket lines up perfectly.

11-Bracket%20on%20RV-10-XL.jpg




The plane and bracket are in Arizona, however I just looked and you can order one from Van's for $11.80! Click here. According to Van's support the W-00026 alignment bracket shown in the photo above is the newer bracket, and you can tell because it has a singular hole positioned between the large hole and the trailing edge.
 

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