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Age and flying

gmcjetpilot

Well Known Member
I noticed many RV accidents involve pilots in their late 50's or 60's or much older. This Gentleman was 90 and still flying. I have no idea if his age was a factor and his medical status. He held a 3rd class medical and was fairly current. It may have been an engine issue on takeoff according to witness. (NOTE: engine Mattituck TMXOF-360, was a FADC engine. One module was recovered and may bring light to the possible power issue.)

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2019/05/vans-rv-6a-n596jb-fatal-accident.html

https://www.chillicothegazette.com/...an-killed-ross-county-plane-crash/3731751002/

I am not bashing "senior citizen" pilots by a long shot, but when should a pilot hang it up. Typically inability to get a medical is a reason. With age even if you can get a 3rd class medical, your reflexes slow and chance of medical issue in flight increases. I suspect many of the RV accidents with older pilots are due to the fact pilots who can afford a plane and have time to fly are older or retired. I hope we are all healthy and still able to fly at 90 btw...
 
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I'm 72. Age is no doubt a factor. I'm a better pilot now than when I was 25 but my reflexes are definitely slower.
 
It?s interesting the NTSB chose to actually investigate this accident. It seems all to often they don?t travel and simply do a few phone interviews to close out the investigation. I wonder if they want a good look at the FADEC.
G
 
I have pilot friends who fly IAC competition aerobatics that are in their 70s and even a couple in their 80s!
Suitable health for flight should be considered 'on condition' and NOT based on age.
 
This is such a case-by-case, individual issue! From my own late-60?s vantage point I find myself surrounded by contemporaries experiencing an incredibly broad range of diminishment in mental and physical condition. Much of this is due to chance, but there is also a clear trend: Those who have kept themselves in good physical condition and stay engaged in mentally challenging activities(like flying!) tend to thrive.

I believe that the ability to exercise good judgement plays a bigger role in flight safety than do physical reflexes. Wisdom and experience can compensate for a lot. Still, the biggest challenge is that public safety depends upon brutally honest self-assessment of cognitive ability and physical condition by each pilot, and gradual loss of the ability to do THAT can complicate things! In that regard, the pilot and CFI communities can help by looking out for one another. Take the opportunities to fly with your older pilot friends at the controls, and do them the favor of being honest and open with them about your own assessment of the experience.

Age was certainly an issue for me when I decided to buy instead of build two years ago at age 66, but I?m dedicating a one-year equivalent in work on modifications to the fabulous 7A airframe that I found and bought as a low-time, flying aircraft. The idea was to end up with exactly the airplane I would have built, but shift several precious years of from building to aviating. My own self-assessment still leaves the door open for up to 20 more years of flying.

Staying physically active and expanding my piloting skills in a non-stop learning experience are core strategies for extending my own flying years. I recently took up aerobatics training for the first time and I?m having a ball! I?ve learned that I?m far more comfortable with unusual attitudes than I ever thought possible. I?m installing a fabulously capable suite of Garmin avionics- and plan to delve deeply into expanding and sharpening my IFR skills. Nothing brings one more acutely face-to-face with hard physical reality than flying. The more I fly, the longer I get to fly!- Otis
 

The key here is "Individual". It is not the age but the individual person. Some people age quicker. Some pilots who are marginal at 50 don't get better when they are 75. Some pilots at 80 are still proficient. However even the great Bob Hoover had to stop flying.

I knew a few much older pilots (70's) over the years. One I knew started flying late in his life. He went on to learn aerobatics. He said his health improved doing aerobatics. Flying can keep you young as mentioned, mentally and physically.

You don't need lighting reflexes to fly, but at some point "a man's got to know his limitations". Some older pilots can't admit this and may fly too long... I have seen/heard of this by rumor, "See Joe land yesterday, he needs to stop flying before he hurts himself. He's getting to old to fly". Bottom line it is the pilot's call. In the case of "Joe" there was an intervention by the airport community, and Joe realized it, scaring himself.

I use to fly with a Pilot who lost his medical in his Bonanza. He was a friend, so I did not charge him. He did not need any instruction. It was his plane, and he flew it well. I was just a safety pilot for legality reasons.
 
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Rod Machado did a video on this subject

Dont have a link but you can find it on youtube. He makes some interesting observations.
 
Definitely case-by-case. I've flown with 80 year old pilots who could fly circles around some 30 year olds. Age begets experience/knowledge/caution and offsets loss of reflexes for many years. The ultimate limit probably coincides somewhat with the inability to saddle up.
 
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older and a little 'bold' along the way

About to turn 72, been flying since starting in 1965.

Learned a few lessons along the way - not from being bold, but young and unaware. And I know a couple of older pilot friends who quit because of various age related reasons.

I hope that I will quit when I know that it's time to quit, has to come sometime.
 
Life limit ?

Jeff, I'm close to boarding the same boat you are in. My brother had over 16,000hrs(no airline), was flying a Falcon until he was 74 (ready to renew) and told by insurance they could not insure him. So, called my insurance and was told " Yes, that is an "age" we look at", except they do insure longer depending on stuff they will not tell you. You know the drill! YMMV... John
 
? I would imagine the reason most accidents involve pilots in their 60s, is due
to the fact that the average pilots age is 62.3 yours old. I'm not sure, but would
be willing to bet the average age for RV owners / builders is most likely higher
than that. They are usually retired or almost so, usually have a bit more disposable
income, and time to build and fly as well. You rarely hear of an old guy crashing
or dying in his wing suit or when water skiing over 80 mph. This proves old guys
are more capable! Just ask one. Thanks, Allan..:rolleyes:
 
statistics

? I would imagine the reason most accidents involve pilots in their 60s, is due to the fact that the average pilots age is 62.3 yours old. I'm not sure, but would be willing to bet the average age for RV owners / builders is most likely higher than that. ...
Excellent point, Allan. It is always helpful to put statistics into the correct context. Can't speak for everyone, but I know I'm better in (almost) every way today than when I started flying 40+ years ago! :D
 
Excellent point, Allan. It is always helpful to put statistics into the correct context. Can't speak for everyone, but I know I'm better in (almost) every way today than when I started flying 40+ years ago! :D
As good once, as I ever was....
 
An older pilot I knew said best to recognize its time to stop even if it?s six months to soon rather than one day to late.
Really think it?s being honest with yourself and recognizing that time.
 
An older pilot I knew said best to recognize its time to stop even if it?s six months to soon rather than one day to late.
Really think it?s being honest with yourself and recognizing that time.

?. Like Clint said, "A man needs to know his limitations." In my experience the
older guy is far more aware of his, and as such is far more cautious and well
aware of the other guys short comings. Thanks, Allan...:D
 
I am not bashing "senior citizen" pilots by a long shot, but when should a pilot hang it up. Typically inability to get a medical is a reason. With age even if you can get a 3rd class medical, your reflexes slow and chance of medical issue in flight increases. I suspect many of the RV accidents with older pilots are due to the fact pilots who can afford a plane and have time to fly are older or retired. I hope we are all healthy and still able to fly at 90 btw...

Really? I resemble that remark!! And I agree with Alan. It?s up to us. We need to self evaluate, especially with Basic Med. Who is going to police us, except us? The only oversight is when there is an accident. It?s pretty similar with driving. How many people you know, shouldn?t be driving? Nothing happens until there?s an accident. I?m not far from that point when I need to evaluate what I am safely capable of. Eventually I?ll need to tone things down a bit. Increased weather minimums for IFR flight; limited night flight; less complex aircraft, etc. I?m not there yet, but I?ve evaluated professional pilots for a long time, and now I?m Not that far from entering a phase where I will be evaluating ME. We all need to do that at some point, but I think we should have a friend/college/mentor, that can help us do that. Accidents that happen due to age related deficiency, shouldn?t happen, but in general aviation, we are our only defense. A BFR should be more than a pencil whipped logbook entry. Picking on seniors isn?t the answer. We should all measure up to the same standard. Maybe BFR standards should be more closely monitored? I don?t know the answer, but we are an aging pilot population, and if we don?t protect this segment of aviation, and mentor the following group, we loose this amazing freedom we enjoy.
 
I've got a neighbor just down the road with more hours than I can count, a lifetime as a cropduster and CFI. His eyes are going, his blood pressure is ugly, some heart problems, and finally he declared that he will NEVER stop flying or sell his airplane, but he will stop carrying passengers. Everyone picks their own path.
 
A often told tale relates to an older local pilot that cut a $100 bill in half and pinned one half to the notice board in the pilot lounge with a note that said? the first pilot to convince me that I am too old and should hang it up gets the other half of this bill.?
When I can find an uncommitted $100 bill that doesn't get spent on buying Avgas I might just get around to trying that approach.

KT
 
It's a tuff one this subject. There's no one answer, we each have our level of risks we are prepared to fly with including age related fitness.
A long time pilot friend of mine recently dropped like a bag of spuds wth a seizure, woke up in hospital, doesn't remember a thing! 2 days latter a tumor on his brain was removed, never been sick, he'll never fly again, he is 65, flew 2 days before the life changing event!
I fly commercially so I have two major medicals a year plus other tests at my own expense.
Personally I'll probably not fly solo after 70, that's my choice, for my family.
 
I'll be 74

.....in July and my biggest problem is getting into or out of an RV-7. Last week I checked out a Fedex pilot in a beautiful glass equipped -7 and couldn't hardly get out. No more two-seat RV's for me. My -10 is also getting harder to get in and out of. Time will tell.

I still teach basics in a Cessna 172 and just soloed a 21 year old yesterday but I can see the end of the tunnel coming.

Best,
 
I have nothing to add except my limited observations. I am starting late. Early 50's and just a student pilot. I had to stop training for the last 8 months as life got in the way, but will resume in a month and hopefully finish up. Maybe foolishly thinking I can get 20 years in of flying is a pipe dream, but it has helped me in a few ways. I noticed early on that all the really older guys I know are slender and active. Simple as that.

I have since lost 45 lbs since taking up this new hobby and am on track for losing the last 25. I don't eat junk anymore, and have started back on weight training. I feel better than I have in the last 15 years. Blood pressure was starting to creep up to the medication level, but now has decreased to a healthy normal range with no medication needed.

Mentally this new level of knowledge is "stretching" my brain and I believe it helps to combat the effects of age on the brain.

Will I make it to still flying in my mid 70's? I don't know, but I will check back in 20 years or so from now and let you all know. I have always dreamed of flying. Now I have the means to do so, and I think it can also be the vehicle that keeps me focused on my health and the reward for working hard for it.
 
Aging

75 and still fly about 150 hours a year in the RV6A, I decided to stop flying jets last year, I didn?t enjoy being away from home anymore after 51 years as a corporate pilot. I don?t fly 8 hours a day anymore, 6 is about the limit. No hard IFR anymore, to hard to stay current, no more recurrents. I just fly one airplane and I?m very comfortable with that. My wife, Judie flys with me most of the time and she has over 300 hours in our RV. We flew 44 hours last month from Fredericksburg, Tx. to Anchorage and back. My minimums are much higher in every way. I have had to ask pilots I worked with to stop flying, I hated doing it, but after a few months and they couldn?t drive anymore, I knew I made the correct decision. I know it?s getting closer and I?m OK with that, it?s been a great ride.
 
Safer then ever before

At age 65 I was a sharper pilot as a younger man but I am a much safer pilot than ever before.

The days of kick the tires and light the fire are over. Now I check everything very carefully and if something isn't right it's a no-go. That includes the airplane, the weather, and me.

The older you get the more you believe the old adage- there are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old, bold pilots.
 
Since I started this thread I went and looked for statistics. They are hard to come by. The biggest study (and it was extensive), was when increasing the Airline pilot mandatory retirement age from 60 to 65. Since they raised it and older airline pilots are not having accidents more often is a good thing. Although most Airline operations are two crew cockpits. I found two cases of a Captain passing away on duty (in the cockpit during taxi or flight) and the FO landing. With all the flights this is rare. Keep in mind 1st class involves a EKG every year or 5 years depending on age.

There seems to be a feeling older is even better, better judgment and so on. Statistics don't seem to prove out older is better any more than older is worse for safety. I think the unknown is older pilots are more likely to have medical issues in flight. That is still rare. I found a few cases of older pilots showing poor judgment as well.

Car insurance studies show older drivers are safer, but at some point they get can get worse. I remember my grandmother was sideswiping cars, and my parents had to get her off the road. On the other hand Mario Andretti drives an indy car stiill at +200 mph for demos on the race track...


Bottom line it is individuals (genetics) not an age. We have some of the variables in our control:
Health - Great reason to maintain good health, hit the gym,
Medical Exams - make sure your ticker and other bits are checked out regularly....
Stay Current - and active to keep mental acuity spooled up.
 
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Age

Pilot A is 50 years old. History of smoking early in life. 6' tall and weighs 300#.
Pilot B is 80, never smoked, 6' tall and weighs 170#.
Both have current second class medicals.
A family emergency requires that you put a loved one in a two seat airplane airplane with one of the two pilots for a 200 mile flight. No alternative possible. Which pilot will you chose?
 
Pilot A is 50 years old. History of smoking early in life. 6' tall and weighs 300#.
Pilot B is 80, never smoked, 6' tall and weighs 170#.
Both have current second class medicals.
A family emergency requires that you put a loved one in a two seat airplane airplane with one of the two pilots for a 200 mile flight. No alternative possible. Which pilot will you chose?

Irrelevant....there would be far more factors to consider than their smoking habit, age and weight.
 
I am fortunate to have had an older friend who, though is is now gone, showed wisdom in his pilot decision making. When he could no longer ground handle the airplane on his own he accepted that he should have help on the ground, and that anybody he would trust to push his airplane backwards into the hangar should also be trusted to fly with him. We had a great relationship. I almost always flew right seat. He went from having a Cat 3 medical to having no medical - he still flew in the left seat. My presence went from a voluntary decision to an involuntary decision, but at the end of the day, he was still flying, doing it safely, and had the confidence that came from knowing he had somebody to backstop him if he slipped up.

Two very fond memories of him stand out in my mind. About a year before he passed we went up for a local flight and returned to the airport with a nasty crosswind gusting straight across the runway. I could see him putting on his game face as we came riding down final - I could feel him testing the rudder response, calibrating his "seat of the pants" gyros. He landed right main wheel first, kept adding aileron into the wind until the left wheel finally touched down, keeping the airplane tracking the runway center line. He braked, turned the airplane around to backtrack, then said,"OK, you have control. I'm not going to tempt fate any further." That approach wore him out and he was smart enough to know it.

On our last flight together he taxied up in front of his hangar and shut the engine down. We sat there in the cockpit on that cool March afternoon and listened to the gyros spin down. With a smile on his face he gently patted the glare shield and I heard him say a quiet "thank you". I think we both knew his time was near. Our next visit wasn't in a cockpit but rather a hospital room.

Allowing my friend to continue to experience the magic of flight is one of the most satisfying things I've done in life. He knew when to hang up his spurs, or at least get a little help with the reins. I hope others are as fortunate.
 
Canadian Joy, that's a touching story and we're all going to be there some time.

My Dad hung up his headphones for the last time on his 84th birthday. His hearing had been ruined from flying Expeditors, B25s, DC3s and Argus with the props close to the ears.

Kind of an awkward silence as he shut down the Sube for the last time. I don't know which of us was more sad that day...

He wanted to stop on a high note and did.
 
I don't know which of us was more sad that day...

He wanted to stop on a high note and did.

Take a little solace, Ross, in knowing you were with him on that last flight. I'm sure he is more than a little proud of what you've done with the torch he has passed to you.
 
Sam Buchanan 'been here awhile',

Congratulations Sam, I see from the info on your profile that you reached the great-great grand-daddy age of 117 this past April, and I am assuming you are still flying the RV-6. A clear demonstration of the number of years is just one consideration when it comes to the ability to pilot.
 
Heard this many years ago.... we?re all going to make our last flight one day, the important thing is to know that it?s your last flight!

Jack
 
Irrelevant....there would be far more factors to consider than their smoking habit, age and weight.

Very true, not a very bright analogy there!
Young healthy people have known to drop dead, fat unhealthy overweight people have been known to live a long time!
 
First of all, I have been absolutely blessed to spend a lifetime being able to realize one aviation dream after another. From soloing a C-150 at the age of 16 to flying Air Force jets in my 20’s to flying some of the very best corporate jets in my 30’s, 40’s and 50’s to checking out in the P-51 in my 60’s, it’s been one **** of a ride. Honestly though, as I am reaching my late 60’s, even with perfect health and absolutely perfect medically related numbers on my recent physical, I recently did an honest self evaluation and, as painful as it was, I came to the conclusion that it is time to “throttle down” a little. My plan is to fly less demanding airplanes as I age until I reach the point that one day, I decide it’s time to put even that basic, probably rag wing airplane, back in the hangar for the last time. To me, the important thing is just recognizing and acknowledging the fact that, despite what our mind tells us, most of us are not the same in the later years as we were in our prime. For now, our RV is just right........
 
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Honestly though, as I am reaching my late 60?s, even with perfect health and absolutely perfect medically related numbers on my recent physical, I recently did an honest self evaluation and, as painful as it was, I came to the conclusion that it is time to ?throttle down? a little.

Is 74-07 your UPT class number?

74-01 here
 
Fading away

My dad lost his Special Issuance medical at age 84. This was after two heart valve surgeries, the first at age 77 and then the other at age 82. We were amazed that he could continue to pass the S. I. medical. In addition and unknown to him, I had an agreement with his flight instructor to inform me immediately if he noticed any deterioration of his flying abilities. None were noticed. After he lost his medical, I asked if he was going to sell the 172. His reply was that he would keep it and ask me or his flight instructor to give him an occasional ride.

I must say that some of my best memories of my dad are of those trips when we visited his friends. I let him fly when he wanted to but as time passed he seemed to enjoy being a passenger more than being the pilot. Thus, his flying days just gradually faded away. But I could tell that he missed the freedom to fly. On the day he had his debilitating stroke at age 86, he had driven his car to his favorite restaurant. He recovered but his mind was never the same. He passed at age 89.

When he turned 80, we surprised him with a membership in the United Flying Octogenarians (UFO?s). My goal is to qualify for UFO membership.
 
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